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G36 dual sights and correct optical sight reticle pattern


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Recta DP
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Posted 14 May 2009 - 11:40 #1

May I ask three questions:

1.)
The G36 features dual sights: "a 3.5X scope sight beneath, and a 1X red-dot sight above."
Will we have two „sight buttons“ in Arma2 to directly switch to one of the two sights?

2.)
Will the 3.5X scope sight have a proper and functional sight reticle pattern:

http://de.wikipedia....:G36Reticle.png

3.) The last question is not related to the G36 in particular but on aiming in ArmA (ArmA 2) in general: One thing that really is annoying is the possibility to zoom in and change the FOV three times if using iron sights:

a. You can zoom in on something in the normal viewing mode.
b. You can zoom in on something in using the iron sight mode.
c. And if you are using the iron sight mode you can zoom in again.

The possibilities of zooming – in my opinion – are not only complicated, moreover they always felt very unrealistic and killed the immersion a bit. There should even be no zoom and change of FOV if switching to ironsights; the same applies to magnificacion scopes in regard to the landscape viewed outside of the scope:

Example: http://viriato.net/a...19/DSC_1438.JPG

Will Arma 2 use the same complicated viewing system that Arma 1 used or are there signs that the developers modified it?

Edited by Recta DP, 14 May 2009 - 12:14.


Scrub
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Posted 14 May 2009 - 12:03 #2

Not sure about the dual sights, but the viewing and scope system looks to be about the same. Not sure how you think it could be handled without zooming in and out, as the eyes resolution, area of distant interest, and field of view cannot be imitated without it. Basically, hard pixel counts and small screens prevent you from doing wide peripheral work like CQB, and distance shooting in the same FOV.

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Edited by Scrub, 14 May 2009 - 12:06.

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Posted 14 May 2009 - 12:04 #3

3.) The last question is not related to the G36 in particular but on aiming in ArmA (ArmA 2) in general: One thing that really is annoying is the possibility to zoom in and change the FOV three times if using iron sights:

a. You can zoom in on something in the normal viewing mode.
b. You can zoom in on something in using the iron sight mode.
c. And if you are using the iron sight mode you can zoom in again.

The possibilitys of zooming – in my opinion – are not only complicated, moreover they always felt very unrealistic and killed the immersion a bit. There should even be no zoom and change of FOV if switching to ironsights; the same applies to magnificacion scopes in regard to the landscape viewed outside of the scope:


Do you know why there is a zoom in the first place? It's because the resolution of a monitor can never match the human eye and zooming simulates concentration on a faraway object that you could see irl with your bare eyes but not on a computer screen.

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Posted 14 May 2009 - 12:46 #4

Hi I may be completly wrong but on the arma 2 website it has 4 varients of the G36.

G36, G36C, G36C-SD, G36K

The G36k has a scope, G36c + G36c-sd have a red dot by the looks of tings so Im guesing the G36 is just an ironsight.

But having never played the original arma I have no idea how your weapon selection is. Weather you have to choose one of the above variants or you choose the gun then start equiping things like supresors and scopes etc.

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Recta DP
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Posted 14 May 2009 - 12:57 #5

Thanks for your answers!

Basically, hard pixel counts and small screens prevent you from doing wide peripheral work like CQB, and distance shooting in the same FOV.

Scrub


I can see the point and I understand why zooming is advantageous especially for small screens, but most people who will play hardware intensive games like ArmA 2 will – as I presume – also have proper screens (24“). On such screens it will not be that necessary to be able to zoom and change the FOV in normal viewing mode.

And for "distance shooting" you will - as in real life - need the help of magnification scopes or binoculars...

For me the possibility to zoom does not feel like simulating the capabilities of the human eye, it feels (a) a bit like "cheating" (as I read in another post on this forum) and (B) there are much more other things to battle with (for example tactical considerations) then having constant battles with the viewing system:

Often the procedure is the following:

1. Normal viewing mode.
2. Zoom in on something (for example an enemy).
3. Quickly zoom out by switching to iron sight mode.
4. In iron sight mode: quickly zoom in again.

The constant zooming and FOV shifting is annoying and furthermore zooming does not sucessfully simulate spatial perceptiveness you lack in a computer simulation. Quite the contrary: In ArmA I am loosing orientation and spatial perceptiveness because of it!

Edited by Recta DP, 14 May 2009 - 16:57.


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Posted 14 May 2009 - 13:51 #6

Often the procedure is the following:

1. Normal viewing mode.
2. Zoom in on something (for example an enemy).
3. Quickly zoom out by switching to iron sight mode.
4. In iron sight mode: quickly zoom in again.


But thats your decision....just keep the zoom button pressed and switch to ironsight -> no zooming around!
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Posted 14 May 2009 - 14:36 #7

Zoom is there for a reason, as others have stated above. Though ff you don't like the zoom feature, you can always disable it by unbinding it in your keyboard config. Of course that would put you at a disadvantage in PvP, because others could still use it.

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Posted 14 May 2009 - 16:18 #8

Hell, yeah. If you have the uber 24" screen, you are one of the blessed chosen that has no need to do so. A major bonus from BIS in Arma is that you have OPTIONS for everything, because they as developers cannot 'assume' anything less than the player that has the minimum required to play, and therefore has to make accomodations for them.

And for distance shooting, I mean within ironsights range 300-400m out. Unless you have the setup you assume we all have at maximum resolution, the target would be a pixel or two without FOV adjustment. It isn't cheating. It's making up for the fact the eye has infinately more resolution than your CRT/LCD, allowing you to squint a bit and make out features at those ranges.

Edited by Scrub, 14 May 2009 - 16:23.

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Posted 14 May 2009 - 16:23 #9

24 inch screens at high res still don't give you visual accuity that someone with 20 / 20 vision has.

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Posted 14 May 2009 - 18:25 #10

Zoom is there for a reason, as others have stated above.


I am convinced that zoom is there for a good reason, thanks for your answers. But even if this is the case, there is no need to have four different stages of zoom and FOV.

Let me explain (for example use the M249 SAW in ArmA):

There are 2 viewing modes: (a) normal viewing mode and (B) iron sight viewing mode. Every one of this two modes allows zoom (on/off).

If you are in normal viewing mode (a) (zoom: on) and you switch to iron sight viewing mode (B) (zoom: on) it zooms in a little bit more.

It would be better if the two viewing modes (a) and (B) would correspond to each other for the case that zoom is on/off. If you are in (a) (zoom: off) and you switch to (B) (zoom: off) there should be no zoom and change of FOV; the same for (a) (zoom: on) --> (B) (zoom: on).

For short: There should be no change in zoom and FOV when changing from normal viewing to iron sight viewing mode, because in this case you are only elevating the weapon to look through the iron sights. Zoom should occur only if you use the zoom button.

This would be - in my opinion - much more immersive. The reason for zoom is to simulate the better "resolution" of human sight, but this has to be separated from lowering or elevating the weapon to look through the iron sights.

The vantages: On the one hand there would be lesser FOV and zoom variations and on the other hand you would have the full vantages of zoom.

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Posted 14 May 2009 - 18:52 #11

Let me explain (for example use the M249 SAW in ArmA):

There are 2 viewing modes: (a) normal viewing mode and (B) iron sight viewing mode. Every one of this two modes allows zoom (on/off).

If you are in normal viewing mode (a) (zoom: on) and you switch to iron sight viewing mode (B) (zoom: on) it zooms in a little bit more.



Dunno what version of ArmA you're running, but I just tried the M249. When I go into iron sight mode, it actually zooms out a tiny bit, not in. (vanilla ArmA 1.16b)

As for the rest of your post, I really don't see why you care so much about the way zoom behaves. So there's a slight change in FOV when you go into iron sight mode. What's the big deal?

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Posted 14 May 2009 - 19:38 #12

So there's a slight change in FOV when you go into iron sight mode. What's the big deal?


Sorry if my post gave the impression if it would be a "big deal". It's of course no big deal, just a detail: I like BI-games for their attention to detail. I think this could be a slight improvement, since interface, control, movement, vision system etc. of ArmA (and the older OFP) are overall a bit "clunky" and unpolished in a lot of ways.

(p.s. I used an older version of ArmA because it was not installed on the pc where I was writing the post, this may be the reason for the difference in zoom).

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Posted 15 May 2009 - 07:07 #13

i remember in ofp in most leagues ppl played with G36.. (pvp)
when u switched to ironsight mode u had a zoom like 1.5x or 2x .. that was just perfect for nice and fast pvp games.. (cqb and middle distances) i understand the complains about zooming, coz it makes the pvp-game just slower..

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Posted 15 May 2009 - 07:47 #14

I think it would be more correct to say that you are zoomed out default and then you can zoom in 'back' to real life spec.

When you zoom in you have RL view, but as you are looking through a small box (your screen) you loose so much peripheral view so the game zooms you out to give a better FOV and awareness of whats happening around you.
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Posted 15 May 2009 - 09:09 #15

i understand the complains about zooming, coz it makes the pvp-game just slower..


I like slow paced games, especially long distance battles, so that was not my reason for complains about zooming. But I would like the game to be slow paced because of gameplay features (vulnerability, long distance weapons, necessity to take your time to evaluate situations, carefully planning approches etc.) rather than being slow paced because of an overcomplicated control scheme that you constantly have to battle with (a "simulation" has of course to be complicated to a certain degree)

I think it would be more correct to say that you are zoomed out default and then you can zoom in 'back' to real life spec.

When you zoom in you have RL view, but as you are looking through a small box (your screen) you loose so much peripheral view so the game zooms you out to give a better FOV and awareness of whats happening around you.


Yes, normal viewing mode (zoom: off) feels like looking through a wide-angle lens. But the tradeoff for better awareness of whats happening around you is the loss of feeling for the distance of objects.

This "loss" is moreover intensified becaue of the four different stages of zoom and FOV:

1. Normal viewing mode (zoom: off)
2. Normal viewing mode (zoom: on)
3. Iron sight mode (zoom: off)
4. Iron sight mode (zoom: on)

If 1. and 3., 2. and 4. would correspond in zoom and FOV one would probably get a better feeling for distance because there would only be 2 different stages of zoom and FOV instead of 4.

In ArmA I never got - and maybe this has to do with all the different zoom ranges - a proper feeling for the distance of objects.

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Posted 15 May 2009 - 10:23 #16

i remember in ofp in most leagues ppl played with G36.. (pvp)
when u switched to ironsight mode u had a zoom like 1.5x or 2x .. that was just perfect for nice and fast pvp games.. (cqb and middle distances) i understand the complains about zooming, coz it makes the pvp-game just slower..


The less said about OFP and G36, the better. It was like some neverending joke that G36 shall be the one and only weapon in pvp, and people actually complained and switched map if the gun wasn't included.

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Posted 15 May 2009 - 10:55 #17

Hi I may be completly wrong but on the arma 2 website it has 4 varients of the G36.

G36, G36C, G36C-SD, G36K


A game should finally have the version the german military uses with Red Dot and Scope mounted. I loved choosing which view/scope to use shooting targets at mid-range.

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Posted 15 May 2009 - 13:18 #18

Hi I may be completly wrong but on the arma 2 website it has 4 varients of the G36.

G36, G36C, G36C-SD, G36K

The G36k has a scope, G36c + G36c-sd have a red dot by the looks of tings so Im guesing the G36 is just an ironsight.


You be wrong ;)

G36
- standart weapon of german military
- scope (3x)
- red dot sight
G36K
- K = Kurz = short
- scope (3x)
- notch and bead sight
G36C
- C = Compact, not Commando
- a special notch and bead sights

The G36 without red dot is called G36V (V = Varianten = variants).
The export model for USA has a special name, it is called G36E (E = Export). The G36E is just a G36V, because of this so many people think the standart G36 haven't a red dot sight.

Greetings from germany.

PS.: Be indulgent to me, my english isn't good ^^

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Posted 15 May 2009 - 17:49 #19

Yes, normal viewing mode (zoom: off) feels like looking through a wide-angle lens. But the tradeoff for better awareness of whats happening around you is the loss of feeling for the distance of objects.

This "loss" is moreover intensified becaue of the four different stages of zoom and FOV:

1. Normal viewing mode (zoom: off)
2. Normal viewing mode (zoom: on)
3. Iron sight mode (zoom: off)
4. Iron sight mode (zoom: on)

If 1. and 3., 2. and 4. would correspond in zoom and FOV one would probably get a better feeling for distance because there would only be 2 different stages of zoom and FOV instead of 4.

In ArmA I never got - and maybe this has to do with all the different zoom ranges - a proper feeling for the distance of objects.

2 and 4 are currently the same in Arma, 1 and 3 differ a bit as already stated by some. That's on 1.14 and the 1.15 and 1.16 beta for me. On older versions the difference was a lot bigger, but the although small still noteable change between 1 and 3 is a bugger.
To get 1/3 exactly the same use trueFOV from the truemods pack. I never play without it since its release.

I hope with Arma 2 we will get them like this from the start.
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Posted 16 May 2009 - 09:30 #20

2 and 4 are currently the same in Arma, 1 and 3 differ a bit as already stated by some. That's on 1.14 and the 1.15 and 1.16 beta for me. On older versions the difference was a lot bigger, but the although small still noteable change between 1 and 3 is a bugger.
To get 1/3 exactly the same use trueFOV from the truemods pack. I never play without it since its release.


Thank you for the information!