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Does anyone else think there might be an issue with AI night detection?

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Since the 1.60 patch, I'm finding AI without NVG capabilities simply cannot detect the player when they are hidden under the cover of darkness. In some instances I can literally walk right up to the unit and touch him and he won't acknowledge my presence (though that's only happened to me a couple times).

I'm finding in general, when there are no ambient light sources, AI without night vision are like sitting ducks that I can snipe to my heart's desire.

This is especially worrisome in missions where you play a special forces (which have NVG's) and are infiltrating a less advanced enemy (think insurgents like Taliban).

Now I will say, when I go under a street lamp or any ambient lighting they see me and detect me just fine, but under the cover of darkness, forget it.

I mean I like that BIS toned this down but perhaps they went too much in the opposite direction? I'm not saying I want them to see without NVG's in the pitch black, but shouldn't they at least detect me when they come under a hail storm of bullets? Like shouldn't they try to suppress or anything but just stand there? I mean, I can see them even without my NVG's turned on. They just don't seem to be able to return the favor.

What do you guys think?

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Them not seeing you at night may be down to your camouflage, which I suppose you are donning as a spec-op. So for sure, in a non-urban area at night opponents without NVGs against special ops are really at an disadvantage. Just for completeness, have you tried adjusting their skill?

 

That being said, it makes no sense that they do not move or react when fired upon, this normally works through the suppression that was introduced some time ago. And you firing effectively gives away your position, that should also affect what they do. Although some ammo is more stealthy than other (muzzle flash, sound and so on) so also depends what you are throwing at them.

 

From the change it seems that the distance between you and them is also relevant for how they act - someone mentioned that above 200m they seemed to not care now which is odd if they did react differently before the change.

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I have not messed with adjusting the skill; mainly because I make these missions to release to the public and want to leave it up to the player to decided what AI skill level feels most comfortable to them.

Yeah, I will say, in the one specific circumstance that's I've tried that's ESPECIALLY jarring to me (this is the instance that I can often literally tap the enemy on the shoulder. I've done this in a few occasions to test), I am using silencers and IR lasers too (Massi's USSOCOM Ghost units and Middle East Insurgents. I actually asked Massi about this and he says he doesn't adjust detection values from vanilla at all).

I definitely expect to have a huge leg up when I'm concealed by darkness, kitted up in spec-ops gear and when they're not expecting me. And I adore how I can sneak up and go to town now (as I should. This was not possible with 1.58). But it's troublesome how incompetent the AI is after the initial strike. They don't suppress or try to protect themselves or value their own lives at all. I mean fire at SOMETHING or pop some smoke for goodness sake.

Again, once I get to more lit areas everything is fine (and hard! I usually make it so we're better skilled but outnumbered). It's just their behavior seems wrong in so many ways when no ambient light sources are available. And apparently it's only going to get worse looking at that changelog!

This is fine for NATO vs CSAT, where both sides have NVG capabilities, I guess. But special forces against Taliban? That is going to be a tough thing to balance after the patch I'd think. It's not particularly good as it stands IMO.

It's not like I need them to see me. I just want them to acknowledge they're being shot at and at least put up a little bit of a fight.

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I completely forgot one thing: Those passive AIs, what waypoint are they under? I have previously found that with no waypoint assigned, they are deaf and blind and do not care about being shot.

 

If you want them to remain in one spot but be on alert and combat ready, make sure to give them a Guard or Sentry waypoint. Also, I think you can set waypoint properties like Combat alertness

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Yes you can change that in the waypoint properties.

@Heroes On what map did you test that and what type of Terrain?

I feel like that at a night without a full moon or overcast, not using NVGs makes you blind (without tweaking any Settings) and that if I would be Standing in a field

unable to see anything it's actually quiet good that the same Counts for AI and it should Keep like this.

I think it's just again a Mission making aspect somehow as a missionmaker you'll have to figure out how to Balance it.

Campfires, flashlights, flares, Static lights all that Kind of stuff and NVG's arent that superior anymore.

So always Keep in mind that we are effected the same way if we dont have that gear.

 

Retch

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To answer both of you, I'm using ALiVE to spawn the units. This would mean they'd organically have an objective (the units aren't stagnant, they're patrolling).

One example is Zargabad, which is mostly empty fields and unlit aside from the one big city and a peppering of villages. So as the units patrol from one objective to another, they're often out in the middle of nowhere; unsuspecting of the death sentence I'm about to shower all over them.

I mean yeah, I get it. They probably shouldn't really be able to detect me with their eyes. I mean I guess; I can still see them without NVG's in the circumstance I'm describing. But let me just concede that perhaps it should work the way it does...

Why on earth when they're under fire do they not attempt to discern where the ambush is coming from and why don't they fire at something or pop smoke or play anything other than whack-a-terrorist? What I'm thinking is this is the same behavior one would see trying to snipe a dude in the daytime from 1000m. In that situation it would make sense for them not to fire because they probably couldn't even hear the shot!

But to see the same behavior from the AI at dusk when I'm maybe 100m out?

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As you as human cannot see in darkness i think its not a bug. I could walk exacly next to you when i would have night vision and you would even notice. This is finally working as it should.

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Perhaps.

It's just very noticeably different. Don't get me wrong, I'm happy stealth missions might be possible now (it was a big weakness in the series before). I'm just concerned they over did it.

Their reaction to being massacred might be the most alarming point I'm making but time will tell I guess.

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If you have any doubts, try to get in forest at night - off course forest with no lights - you will be more scared than rabbits after seeing a car headlights. This is beacuse you will not see anything around. Evenat full moon, you will be able to see only some sillhouettes of the objects around. This is why BIS make such step. We are only humans (by default :D ) and we dont have integrated night vision goggles :) I'm living just next to forest and was backing to home very often on 22 and later, knowing the road very good, but in the night everything looks diferent or you dont see anything - believe me, its very realistic. Only problematic point of Ai visibility may be earlier hours like 19 , 20, 21. when there is enough light to see enemy at ~100m. I was "fighting" on many Paintball in my area and if you have uniform with camo - you are getting "invisible" after 19.

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I mean yeah, I get it. They probably shouldn't really be able to detect me with their eyes. I mean I guess; I can still see them without NVG's in the circumstance I'm describing. But let me just concede that perhaps it should work the way it does...

Why on earth when they're under fire do they not attempt to discern where the ambush is coming from and why don't they fire at something or pop smoke or play anything other than whack-a-terrorist? What I'm thinking is this is the same behavior one would see trying to snipe a dude in the daytime from 1000m. In that situation it would make sense for them not to fire because they probably couldn't even hear the shot!

But to see the same behavior from the AI at dusk when I'm maybe 100m out?

I just set up a small test. Arma 3, no mods, on Stratis at 22:00, me with NVGs against a CSAT patrol with no NVGs. I could not see anything until I turned on the NVGs. I fired a few shots at them and then changed position. When fired upon by me the CSAT patrol went prone and started scanning but did not fire back, probably because I had stopped shooting at them so they had no real information. So I did get some reaction, similar to what you would see during daytime with going prone and scanning when suppressed.

 

I guess my observation is that they are just as passive under fire at night than during daytime, but even more so when hindered by the dark. On the other hand, they were soldiers with some skillset so if you put rebels in with lower skills at night its going to be quite easy,

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I just set up a small test. Arma 3, no mods, on Stratis at 22:00, me with NVGs against a CSAT patrol with no NVGs. I could not see anything until I turned on the NVGs. I fired a few shots at them and then changed position. When fired upon by me the CSAT patrol went prone and started scanning but did not fire back, probably because I had stopped shooting at them so they had no real information. So I did get some reaction, similar to what you would see during daytime with going prone and scanning when suppressed.

 

I guess my observation is that they are just as passive under fire at night than during daytime, but even more so when hindered by the dark. On the other hand, they were soldiers with some skillset so if you put rebels in with lower skills at night its going to be quite easy,

Just like in RL.

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They walked right by me while I was crouched and did not move. This is unmodded, on stable.

 

http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=714257244

 

Next I'll try without the NVGs to figure out if I could have seen or heard them when they walked past me.

 

Edit: It turns out my monitor has several settings (learn something new everyday!), on FPS mode I could make them out without NVGs as they were lit up by the moonlight (22:00). But they could not detect me. So a bit unfair as we all were without NVGs. Monitor differences may also be why different people are reporting different results on seemingly the same scenario

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They walked right by me while I was crouched and did not move. This is unmodded, on stable.

 

http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=714257244

 

Next I'll try without the NVGs to figure out if I could have seen or heard them when they walked past me.

 

Edit: It turns out my monitor has several settings (learn something new everyday!), on FPS mode I could make them out without NVGs as they were lit up by the moonlight (22:00). But they could not detect me. So a bit unfair as we all were without NVGs. Monitor differences may also be why different people are reporting different results on seemingly the same scenario

Something else to bear in mind is that you were always aware of the AI, but they were not aware of you. I think it's reasonable especially if you were stationary (no noise) and crouching in the dark. Maybe try the same scenario but have the AI's waypoint set to "Aware" and "Limited" (speed).

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They walked right by me while I was crouched and did not move. This is unmodded, on stable.

 

http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=714257244

 

Next I'll try without the NVGs to figure out if I could have seen or heard them when they walked past me.

 

Edit: It turns out my monitor has several settings (learn something new everyday!), on FPS mode I could make them out without NVGs as they were lit up by the moonlight (22:00). But they could not detect me. So a bit unfair as we all were without NVGs. Monitor differences may also be why different people are reporting different results on seemingly the same scenario

I'm ok with that. Three questions:

1. What happens in the same scenario when you move?

2. What happens in the same scenario when you walk directly up to one of them as if to touch them?

3. What happens in the same scenario when you fire (they just go prone I assume?)?

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1) I'll check a little later

 

2) I haven't tried that, will test

 

3) This I did try, obviously :) They immediately fire back, I am only 10 meters from them and they must be reacting to my muzzle flash and sound from the shots. I do have them on Combat mode and Open Fire, Fire at Will (from the waypoint) so they are at high alert before the action.

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Ok. Yeah let me know.

But just patrolling a seemingly empty medow but being on high alert would be odd no? Maybe not.

I don't pretend to be an expert on this. What's the default awareness?

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Ok. Yeah let me know.

But just patrolling a seemingly empty medow but being on high alert would be odd no? Maybe not.

I don't pretend to be an expert on this. What's the default awareness?

It is Aware with normal movement speed.

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I'm ok with that. Three questions:

1. What happens in the same scenario when you move?

2. What happens in the same scenario when you walk directly up to one of them as if to touch them?

3. What happens in the same scenario when you fire (they just go prone I assume?)?

 

 

1) I'll check a little later

 

2) I haven't tried that, will test

 

3) This I did try, obviously :) They immediately fire back, I am only 10 meters from them and they must be reacting to my muzzle flash and sound from the shots. I do have them on Combat mode and Open Fire, Fire at Will (from the waypoint) so they are at high alert before the action.

 

Now I had them at Aware, Normal speed, Open Fire, Fire at Will (previous test was with Combat instead of Aware).

 

As for 1 and 2, from 10m out they do not know that I am there. If I move just a little bit closer, even slowly, they eventually hear me and start shooting at the sound. They are not super accurate (shooting at me directly) which indicates that they spray towards the sound rather than my character.

 

You are not able to walk all the way up to them within arms length as your noises will give you away.

 

So I'd say a pretty legit behaviour.

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