ARMA 2: Community Configuration Project (A2CCP)

[Beagle 684]

As Kju stated before, balance is not the main parameter on this project ! improving bushmaster doesn't mean bringing it to the same level of another gun with higher rate ... and to be honest,we need to specify which ammo will be used for Bushmaster because it really makes a difference imo !

The alternative is to reduce the 2A72 hit that would be even better.

[Guess Who 10]

As Kju stated before, balance is not the main parameter on this project ! improving bushmaster doesn't mean bringing it to the same level of another gun with higher rate ... and to be honest,we need to specify which ammo will be used for Bushmaster because it really makes a difference imo !

@ Quazdar:

I'm not talking about balancing. I'm talking about why the BMP-2 is a tank killer and the M2A3 is not! And the cause is not the type of ammunition but a combination of ammo and rate of fire. You should read up.

@ kju:

I did some serious research the last couple of days. But you can't comparison data for the M242 vs. 2A72 on the i-net. The most profund data I got was a table of ammo types and hit values on the Steel Beasts Wiki. While those maybe no real life values I still consider Steel Beasts as the most realistic armor warfare simulation on the market. And that table shows what we only feel. We should at least take this as a base of discussion.

Autocannon

[TABLE=class: wikitable sortable]

[TR=class: even]

[TH]Ammunition

[/TH]

[TH]Range[m]

[/TH]

[TH]RHAe[mm]

[/TH]

[TH]Velocity[m/s]

[/TH]

[TH]Date

[/TH]

[/TR]

[TR=class: odd]

[TD]20mm RH202: DM43 API-T

[/TD]

[TD]2000

[/TD]

[TD]55

[/TD]

[TD]1100

[/TD]

[TD]1972

[/TD]

[/TR]

[TR=class: even]

[TD]20mm RH202: DM63 APDS-T

[/TD]

[TD]2000

[/TD]

[TD]60

[/TD]

[TD]1150

[/TD]

[TD]1989

[/TD]

[/TR]

[TR=class: odd]

[TD]20mm RH202: DM81 HE-I-T

[/TD]

[TD]2000

[/TD]

[TD]20

[/TD]

[TD]1100

[/TD]

[TD]1972

[/TD]

[/TR]

[TR=class: even]

[TD][/TD]

[TD][/TD]

[TD][/TD]

[TD][/TD]

[TD][/TD]

[/TR]

[TR=class: odd]

[TD]25mm Bushmaster: M791

APDS-T

[/TD]

[TD]3000

[/TD]

[TD]60

[/TD]

[TD]1345

[/TD]

[TD]1983

[/TD]

[/TR]

[TR=class: even]

[TD]25mm Bushmaster: M919

APFSDS-T

[/TD]

[TD]3100

[/TD]

[TD]100

[/TD]

[TD]1385

[/TD]

[TD]1994

[/TD]

[/TR]

[TR=class: odd]

[TD]25mm Bushmaster: M792

HEI-T

[/TD]

[TD]3000

[/TD]

[TD]35

[/TD]

[TD]1100

[/TD]

[TD]1983

[/TD]

[/TR]

[TR=class: even]

[TD][/TD]

[TD][/TD]

[TD][/TD]

[TD][/TD]

[TD][/TD]

[/TR]

[TR=class: odd]

[TD]30mm 2A42/2A72: 30mm KE*

[/TD]

[TD]1200

[/TD]

[TD]51

[/TD]

[TD]970

[/TD]

[TD]1990s

[/TD]

[/TR]

[TR=class: even]

[TD]30mm 2A42/2A72: 30mm HEAT*

[/TD]

[TD]1200

[/TD]

[TD]30

[/TD]

[TD]970

[/TD]

[TD]1980s

[/TD]

[/TR]

[TR=class: odd]

[TD]30mm 2A42/2A72: 3UBR6 AP

[/TD]

[TD]1500

[/TD]

[TD]60

[/TD]

[TD]970

[/TD]

[TD]no date

[/TD]

[/TR]

[TR=class: even]

[TD]30mm 2A42/2A72: HE-T 30mm

[/TD]

[TD]1500

[/TD]

[TD]45

[/TD]

[TD]970

[/TD]

[TD]no date

[/TD]

[/TR]

[TR=class: odd]

[TD][/TD]

[TD][/TD]

[TD][/TD]

[TD][/TD]

[TD][/TD]

[/TR]

[TR=class: even]

[TD]30mm GIAT/DEFA: 30mm KE

[/TD]

[TD]1500

[/TD]

[TD]60

[/TD]

[TD]1080

[/TD]

[TD]1990s

[/TD]

[/TR]

[TR=class: odd]

[TD][/TD]

[TD][/TD]

[TD][/TD]

[TD][/TD]

[TD][/TD]

[/TR]

[TR=class: even]

[TD]40mm Bofors L70: Slpprj 90

[/TD]

[TD]2000

[/TD]

[TD]140

[/TD]

[TD]1465

[/TD]

[TD]1993

[/TD]

[/TR]

[TR=class: odd]

[TD]40mm Bofors L70: Slpprj 90LK/97

[/TD]

[TD]2500

[/TD]

[TD]140

[/TD]

[TD]1465

[/TD]

[TD]1997

[/TD]

[/TR]

[TR=class: even]

[TD]40mm Bofors L70: Slpprj 95LK/05

[/TD]

[TD]2000

[/TD]

[TD]170

[/TD]

[TD]1510

[/TD]

[TD]2005

[/TD]

[/TR]

[TR=class: odd]

[TD]40mm Bofors L70: Slsgr 90

[/TD]

[TD]4000

[/TD]

[TD]60

[/TD]

[TD]988

[/TD]

[TD]1990

[/TD]

[/TR]

[TR=class: even]

[TD]40mm Bofors L70: Kulsgr 90

[/TD]

[TD]3000

[/TD]

[TD]40

[/TD]

[TD]1015

[/TD]

[TD]1990

[/TD]

[/TR]

[TR=class: odd]

[TD]40mm Bofors L70: Kulsgr 95LK

[/TD]

[TD]3000

[/TD]

[TD]20

[/TD]

[TD]1000

[/TD]

[TD]1995

[/TD]

[/TR]

[/TABLE]

RHAe[mm] (Penetration) column:

• Black text: RHAe (KE) penetration
  
• Red text: RHAe (HE) penetration
  
• Green text: RHAe (CE)
  penetration
  

[kotov12345 10]

think that vehicles was configured with balance purposes.M2a2 have 2 missiles launchers so bmp2 got faster he gun and better spotting abilities.When bis realized that bmp2 abit more power than expected they make missile reloading time 60 seconds,as was quickest way to make balance.

[Beagle 684]

think that vehicles was configured with balance purposes.M2a2 have 2 missiles launchers so bmp2 got faster he gun and better spotting abilities.When bis realized that bmp2 abit more power than expected they make missile reloading time 60 seconds,as was quickest way to make balance.

I thought ArmA is about realism not about balance. The 2A72 is the inferior gun even to the 20mm RH202 (not in the vanilla game) the above data (very good data sheet thx @ Guess Who) clearly shows this. To balance a M3A2 you use BMP3 not beef up the old BMP2. I thought A2CCP is about to sort such Bullshit out!? The chart clearly shows that pure bore diameter is no guarantee for higher RHA penetration Edited November 24, 2012 by Beagle

[kotov12345 10]

Looooooool realism of what ? Sorry not understand me.Never mind.

[On_Sabbatical 11]

The alternative is to reduce the 2A72 hit that would be even better.

It's the rate of fire that makes the difference,one 2A72/42 round is not that effective,HE rounds wouldn't even kill a soldier 1 m near it.1 AP round wouldn't damage a tank ... but 10 rounds at 400 rpm will do something ! doesn't mean that the bushmaster should be improved to get the same damage in the same duration @200 RPM ! these bullets aren't even supposed to penetrate a tank,but it doesn't concern ArmA since it's using hitpoint system (you can kill a factory using AA12 with HE in the game)

@guess who

The bradley is a tank killer when you use TOW2A (one hit blows a T72 like cheese) ,but not when you use the cannon :this doesn't mean that the cannon should be improved to get the same "BMP2 effect" (BMP needs like 80 rounds to blow up an ABRAMS,which you will rarely manage to get on it before it blows you up).

Besides,each tank has a way in which it should be used ... bradley has very accurate missiles and paper armor and low fire rate cannon,so you'd better stay far from ennemies to make it more effective.

Edited November 25, 2012 by On_Sabbatical

[.kju 3239]

Good job Guess Who!

Like noted before other realism mods (ACE) or games can be useful to check for data or comparison.

Penetration sounds like a meaningful value for damage calculation.

Now you guys only need to translate this into the Arma hit value system. :)

On a related note: Did anyone verify the rate of fire for the BMP2 gun and the Bradley one?

[Guess Who 10]

;2257107']Good job Guess Who!

Like noted before other realism mods (ACE) or games can be useful to check for data or comparison.

Penetration sounds like a meaningful value for damage calculation.

Now you guys only need to translate this into the Arma hit value system. :)

On a related note: Did anyone verify the rate of fire for the BMP2 gun and the Bradley one?

Well' date=' well, well ...

According to this article on the FAS net (Federation of American Scientists) the Bradley uses a default low RoF of 200rpm, though I've seen articles talking about 180rpm. There seems to be an option for 500rpm for the bushmaster which is not used in the M2s.

According to Jane's Information Group the 2A42 Autocannon of the BMP-2 uses a low RoF (200 to 300rpm) and a hi RoF of 550rpm. Max is around 800rpm.

Jokes aside (:cool:) I don't think we need to rebalance the whole thing (like in Arma2 and OA). An in game hit value of 65 for the AP rounds seems underpowered compared to the BMP-2. If you consider the date the action takes place the M919 ap rounds should be standard for the Bradley since they volume manufactured since the mid nineties. Even if you think the game should use the older M791 AP rounds, the BMP's ammo is overpowered in comparison. And I'm not even consideing the RoF.

I'm still playing with the latest A2CCP test release #3 (good job by the way, the TOW flies very smooth now) and a modified hit value of 105 for the M242, and from a gameplay perspective this works out pretty nicely. You still can't take a BMP-2 head on without getting toasted, not even thinking of MBTs. But technicals and lite armored APCs like BTR-40s and BTR-60 are dismissed in short time as it should be. It still takes about 10 seconds to disable a BTR-60 though which seems just about right.

My suggestion would be to either leave the BMP-2 as is (it's still a deadly threat to all APCs and IFVs on the battlefield) and up the Bushmaster to a decent level or we would have to rebalance the whole vehicle park. The latter would also mean to rebalance armor values; I would happily leave that to ACE.

[On_Sabbatical 11]

It still takes about 10 seconds to disable a BTR-60 though which seems just about right.

Actually, this is how it should be since the rounds just penetrate the BTR and kill crewmen inside ...

[Beagle 684]

I still think a value of 100 for APFSDS-T for the Bushmaster is right considering it can penetrate 100mm of RHA with the DU round. Thats enough to obliterate a T-34 and a T-55. The slow RPM stops any chance to use it in more modern MBTs. And don't say the US does not use DU rounds, they are notoriously know to do so down to .50 HMG SLAP.

With that change all other values can stay where they are so it a reasonable solution.

Edited November 25, 2012 by Beagle

[.kju 3239]

The first version is public in 99343.

Changelog: https://dev-heaven.net/versions/1391

Lets pray you guys and me didn't miss anything serious. :o

[Guess Who 10]

;2257691']The first version is public in 99343.

Changelog: https://dev-heaven.net/versions/1391

Lets pray you guys and me didn't miss anything serious. :o

Wow! Congrats, now Arma II is officially a community project ...

[Beagle 684]

Nice to see your work beeing incorporated...any chance for a Bushmaster fix before patch?

Nobody asks for making it a super cannon, just something that is usefull...in vanilla it is not since a KVPT is more lethal in comparison.

[.kju 3239]

Just waiting for a ticket with a specific suggestion Beagle. :rolleyes:

[Guess Who 10]

;2257751']Just waiting for a ticket with a specific suggestion Beagle. :rolleyes:

Touché ... :)

So I thought I'd go ahead and create one: https://dev-heaven.net/issues/65291

It's not complete and refers to this thread. It seems that I can't edit it after creation, so someone should enhance it ...

[On_Sabbatical 11]

@guess who

Just look up ,there is a "more" link,which you can use to edit your first post !

@Kju

Excellent job on the release,it's really good to see some content fixes on the beta !

@Beagle

Implementing that would most likely harm the balance on MP games,it's better to keep it for the last patch !

[KeyCat 131]

Just learned about A2CCP's existance, way to go BIS!

Feel free to use my tiny tiny "contribution" to fix/improve AI when using static search lights...

[87816] AI is deaf and have poor detection range when using static search lights

https://dev-heaven.net/issues/27550

And kudos to you kju for co-ordinating things!

/KC

[OMAC 254]

Holy crap! This is great! Just heard about this effort today, and have already noticed that all the sound names are now listed in the effects box for triggers! Yahoo! Great work, kju and others!

[danil-ch 165]

;2257691']The first version is public in 99343.

I hope more will come soon.

Edited November 27, 2012 by Danil-ch

[samatra 85]

It seems that some fixes don't really work, ones like fixed BTR60 Driver FOV or ability to carry backpacks by ArmA 2 units even though these are included in the patch addon. Still, great job, I didn't expect this to happen to be honest.

[.kju 3239]

SaMatra see this post.

Only if you test the CCP test versions, you will see all fixes and changes at this point.

Note: To combine the CCP test versions with beta patches, you need to load the CCP modfolder first - aka last in the list:

-mod=...;beta;@CCP //just a sample, not the real modline

[PeterBitt 10]

Wow it was worth checking this forum after a break, great news!

Is there a complete changelog somewhere or are those 10 tickets on devheaven everything that is included?

So PvPscene was kju all the time, I thought you left this forum? Nice job anyways :)

[samatra 85]

;2258012']SaMatra see this post.

Only if you test the CCP test versions' date=' you will see all fixes and changes at this point.

Note: To combine the CCP test versions with beta patches, you need to load the CCP modfolder first - aka last in the list:[/quote']

Big thanks for clearing this up. Also big thanks for your efforts for organizing all this and thanks to BIS for supporting you.

[kotov12345 10]

right I didn't checked what is done.But what is the progress with another "chair on radar" tickets like

[CO] Refleks and arkan missiles cannot be guided manually,only with auto-guiding https://dev-heaven.net/issues/14436

https://dev-heaven.net/issues/28705 (rockets too fast)

https://dev-heaven.net/issues/2649 (Tanks with auxilary Power Generators turn on main motor when turning the turret)

I also think that BMP2 missile reloading time 60 sec is completely wrong(real time is 20 sec),as for the game suggest 20 seconds is maximum.

Tunguska reloading time 10 minutes in game looks awful for me.Considering new exploit players switch off engine while flying and dropping lock.

I think new time needed to be decreased to average reloading time for vehicles in game.

[Beagle 684]

20 seconds would be O.K. in the BMP2 when you make it so that missile tube can only be changed when the crew is buttoned up and cannon is secured ;) It's the same issue as with the M1A2 Loader that can magically operate the M240 and reload the main gun at the same time.