Will Bohemia finally improve ARMA's PVP to attract New Players?

[Smurf 12]

I remember the day A2 was released, I was camping at the forums waiting for videos of some features, one of them was reload while moving.

I really expect a much greater leap this time....

[antoineflemming 14]

good fucking christ, i doubt anyone will argue with you one the animation SYSTEM in BF3 being better than ArmA, or most of all the other games out there for that matter. Not even metalcraze would i gather.

BUT, what while that is true, and while ArmA games have one animation for both 1st person view and 3rd person view, that is not the reason why the movement and controls lacks fluency. It is not the animation, but the system that controls it that has limitations (hell, prior to A2, there was no upper and lower body split anims).

On the animations as a whole, i would take ArmA body movement anims over BF3 any day. But i guess that is a matter of subjectivity.

Ok, I guess I see what you are saying.

[galzohar 31]

Hi, IMO the BF3 have better CQB because there i could enter into a room as part of a four men fire team and be effective, this is something that i've never seen on the ArmA series

More because most rooms in Arma are no bigger than my bathroom.

Animation/movement system, existence semi-realistic weapon collision (rather than the "let you swing your weapon through stuff" you get in BF3) and other complaints don't really help, sure, but are far from the main reason.

Its not just about what others see, everything is FLUID. It runs so smoothly, your gun moves perfectly and your body moves perfectly it just all fits together. Its perfect FPS movement. In ArmA, you're a twig.

Much of that "perfection" comes from giving up on realism wherever it might make you uncomfortable even at the slightest. Real life movement is not so comfortable. Only for games that don't care at all about realism can you get truly fluid movement. Arma's movement can be improved, yes, but praising movement in BF3 is just silly. Might as well as for Golden Axe's movement system, as that sure was fluid too (or Unreal Tournament if I were to be less sarcastic).

That said, the main reason there's little PvP going on in Arma has little to do with the above. The main reason is that making a good fun PvP mission in a realistic game is not a simple matter, and thus no single person or small team can get it done in their free time to a quality level that is good enough to stand the test of time. If BIS can do better? Maybe if they really want to. I'm not sure if they do, though. After all, it is a lot of work - Not just properly designing the mission to cater to as many types of Arma fans as possible (note: Arma fans, not BF/other game fans), but also keeping it updated and constantly tweaking it to perfection so that it doesn't get ruined once people figure out its flaws.

In coop the above is much less of an issue, because if you "lose" or "win" in a coop mission due to some unfair factor you simply don't care as much. In PvP when this happens both you and the other team are having less fun, and eventually get tired of those unfair factors and simply stop playing if the mission doesn't get fixed. And often a "fix" is not just a "missing ;" error fix, but rather re-designing major elements in the mission.

I'll be more than happy if BIS is up for this kind of thing, but I highly doubt it's going to happen. I can try do my best to fill in that gap, but then again there's only so much you can do alone or with a small team. Hopefully the release of a new game will create enough interest so that making something good (with a proper test->feedback->tweak/re-design cycle) will be possible.

[chortles 263]

weaponmodelcollisionwithobjects 0

Then this should be the default in Arma 3, at which point BI would be accused by the old hardcores of selling out. The "auto-lower in the event of weapon collision" alternative interesting, but more importantly, whatever the actual method of improvement, such improvement must exist in vanilla in order to be relevant to determining Arma 3 level of improvement over Arma 2.

Maybe BIS can include a few pvp missions with no-respawn and/or maximum of 5 minutes revive - so A3 pvp players in general take more care about their + others life ingame?? :)

You know what? If they did this, it'd still more actual work done by BI instead of the burden being on the community, so sure I'm okay with this! :lol: Seriously, no sarcasm there, though as someone who's had to deal with long respawn timers (up to 2 minutes) in Star Trek Online I'd actually prefer an Arma PVP mission to instead have "no respawn" if it's meant to be a short-duration deathmatch... after all, in Arma one tactically sound player can turn the tide against a tactically inept team. :D

Wow. That's pretty bad. For one, if making it like BF3 or any other 'non sim game' in certain aspects makes the game better for everybody, including them, they should accept it.

The problem being when they mistake the game being worse in aspects than BF3 to be "more realistic"... again, they somehow let BI get away with "reload while moving" being introduced as late as 2009. :rolleyes: As Kamov put it:

But you can actually move your body! Fluent movement is a trait of a ARCADE GAME :O, thus stick man in ArmA series is superior!

(Common view held in the ArmA community)

Throw my hat into the "I like the new Arma 3 animations, even if that makes it seem less realistic to the hardcores" ring, but then again I'd always been partial to SMK animations mod as what Arma 3 movement infantry should be like (without the hard limitations of RV3 that Smookie couldn't work around).

galzohar gets the gist of a fundamental problem with Arma PVP... I'm not surprised if the devs find the community way too diverse in PVP tastes to be able to be able to spend as much time as needed to cater to all of them, and frankly? There's a reason that the two most mainstream-ever Arma "mods" are DayZ and BATTLE BUS, and it's not zombies...

My idea: seeing as both PVP in Arma and Arma itself have popularity ceilings, that's no excuse to actively neglect the latter or make it even worse...

[batto 17]

WRT indoor movement: http://forums.bistudio.com/showthread.php?133004-How-to-improve-the-Close-Quarter-Combat-experience-in-Arma-3/page5 ^^

That said, the main reason there's little PvP going on in Arma has little to do with the above. The main reason is that making a good fun PvP mission in a realistic game is not a simple matter, and thus no single person or small team can get it done in their free time to a quality level that is good enough to stand the test of time. If BIS can do better? Maybe if they really want to. I'm not sure if they do, though. After all, it is a lot of work - Not just properly designing the mission to cater to as many types of Arma fans as possible (note: Arma fans, not BF/other game fans), but also keeping it updated and constantly tweaking it to perfection so that it doesn't get ruined once people figure out its flaws.

+1

Edited December 18, 2012 by batto

[twisted 127]

With the inclusion of editing tools with the alpha BIS would be smart to run a make a pvp map competition, where the top ten get their maps included in final release. Not much extra work but huge publicity and community involvement.

[Nexerius 10]

The PvP is good. People saying its bad, are impatient.

This game needs teamwork, patience, and skill.

I REALLY hope they dont change much, and i REALLY hope they wont put in gamemodes like TDM and DM.

[Saliiim 10]

I think DayZ has done enough to attract new players to ARMA. I don't want the multiplayer turned into some XP touting round based thingy just so that we can attract the odd COD and BF player.

[Westonsammy 1]

I really don't understand why anyone would agree with this.

ArmA's genre is not twitchy close-combat shooter, such as CoD or BF3. ArmA is a MilSim, not a FPS. The gameplay in ArmA (If you can even call it "Gameplay", its more simulation) is meant to be as close to military combat as possible in a video game. That's why features such as CQC (Which happens much more rarely then people seem to think in combat) and ladder climbing are not focused on, and instead features such as realistic ballistics, terrain, sounds (I believe all the sounds in ArmA 3 are now HD), and textures.

If BI wanted to make another generic brown shooter to crown up the market, i'm sure they could.

As for why they made this business decision, its obvious. Not every game company is in it for the money, and not every game company wants to make exactly the same game over and over with a different name slapped on it each time *cough* Activision/EA *cough*. And some game companies take pride in their games and the reviews they receive, both from critics and from the players.

[twisted 127]

It's going to cause some brain haemorrhages for the arma purists, but id like a way for our forum user names to be able to be endorsed online. So when I'm shooting a metalcraze with a red dot next to his name i know it's the same guy as from the forums. Not a ranking system at all as i dont think thats cool here, but more of a convergence of forum community with online play.

[antoineflemming 14]

I really don't understand why anyone would agree with this.

ArmA's genre is not twitchy close-combat shooter, such as CoD or BF3. ArmA is a MilSim, not a FPS. The gameplay in ArmA (If you can even call it "Gameplay", its more simulation) is meant to be as close to military combat as possible in a video game. That's why features such as CQC (Which happens much more rarely then people seem to think in combat) and ladder climbing are not focused on, and instead features such as realistic ballistics, terrain, sounds (I believe all the sounds in ArmA 3 are now HD), and textures.

If BI wanted to make another generic brown shooter to crown up the market, i'm sure they could.

As for why they made this business decision, its obvious. Not every game company is in it for the money, and not every game company wants to make exactly the same game over and over with a different name slapped on it each time *cough* Activision/EA *cough*. And some game companies take pride in their games and the reviews they receive, both from critics and from the players.

But CQC is realistic. Sure, mostly SF engage in CQC, but it most certainly is something that needed improvement, and really had everything to do with animations. There don't need to be TDM or DM or Capture the Flag. Honestly, all it needs to be is your COOP modes, just with other players instead of AI.

[rye1 21]

Happen rarely? You're around it pretty damn frequently, where else would the enemy hide apart from the vegetation of the environment? Buildings!

You can already do a number of entries "SF" do in real-life, the general populace who play ARMA I find agree with it needing improvement in others way such as entry to doors; clipping orientated and such.

[Chip0_ITA 10]

Its not just about what others see, everything is FLUID. It runs so smoothly, your gun moves perfectly and your body moves perfectly it just all fits together. Its perfect FPS movement. In ArmA, you're a twig.

I totally agree with you !

I'm a PR:bf2 player (played america's army a lot too), I don't like Bf3 or Cod-like games, I DO like games that needs teamwork, patience, and skill. As I have NO fun to play vs AI (even the most sophisticated one), I want to play vs other humans, in a great game with a solid MP and good PvP modes (like PR's ones: aas & insurgency)

I always found A2 almost unplayable due to the lack of good, basic FPS movements

@Chortles, I'm in "I like the new Arma 3 animations, even if that makes it seem less realistic to the hardcores" ring, too.

A standard, well-done, compelling PvP is vital for attracting new players.. not the bf3/cod TDM/DM fanboys but the team-oriented ones .. we're much more than you can think, all scattered in bf2,bf3, cod series, even aa2/aa3 .. all waiting for the definitive GAME, with stunning visuals and animation, good FPS movements, and teamwork-oriented MP gameplay

Will Arma3 be THE GAME? I hope so..

[chortles 263]

I really don't understand why anyone would agree with this.

ArmA's genre is not twitchy close-combat shooter, such as CoD or BF3. ArmA is a MilSim, not a FPS. The gameplay in ArmA (If you can even call it "Gameplay", its more simulation) is meant to be as close to military combat as possible in a video game. That's why features such as CQC (Which happens much more rarely then people seem to think in combat) and ladder climbing are not focused on, and instead features such as realistic ballistics, terrain, sounds (I believe all the sounds in ArmA 3 are now HD), and textures.

Unfortunately for your claims here, the Editor pretty much allows Arma to "cross genres", so to speak, so you can bet that people are perfectly capable of (and probably will be) making CQC-focused missions, which does influence the interest in "improv(ing) Arma PVP".

(It should be noted that BF3's gameplay mechanics do not preclude "teamwork" gameplay... last I checked, those who coordinate teamwork have a pretty decisive advantage in that game, but as importantly, it's visibly so.)

Heresy time: I personally believe that the real reason that DayZ was a breakout phenomenon while all the other zombie mods and "persistent" mods (as a bunch of people talked about to dilute the importance of what Rocket did) or PVP missions never took off beyond the Arma player base is that Rocket came up with a "better" (more intriguing-to-more-people) gameplay concept than any of those modders/mission creators did... and ironically, despite Wasteland being an independent project, I believe that it's helped validate Rocket's PVP gameplay concept by proving that "it's not just a zombie thing, that sort of FFA PVP/DM (free-for-all player versus player/deathmatch) can stand on its own". ;)

Edited February 28, 2013 by Chortles

[Llano 11]

Improve how? It's pretty nice as it is. I don't want 1337 haxxxors from cod coming into ArmA and try to 360 snipe enemies.

[gossamersolid 155]

That's why features such as CQC (Which happens much more rarely then people seem to think in combat) and ladder climbing are not focused on

Where'd you get this information from?

Pretty sure BIS has mentioned multiple times that they are focusing on Infantry.

From what we've all seen at E3 and other demos, infantry movement/combat looks MUCH MUCH more fluid that before.

[chortles 263]

Improve how? It's pretty nice as it is. I don't want 1337 haxxxors from cod coming into ArmA and try to 360 snipe enemies.

Puh-lease, nothing actually prevents regular Arma players, much less "1337 haxxxors from cod", from trying. :rolleyes: Arma ballistics merely prevents them from succeeding. ;)

Where'd you get this information from?

Pretty sure BIS has mentioned multiple times that they are focusing on Infantry.

RoyaltyinExile went into detail when specifically asked about it:

I think you're misinterpreting what I meant by 'centric'. It doesn't mean we only deliver an infantry game; rather, it means we pick infantry as a starting point, and everything else we do - helicopters, tanks, UAVs, scuba, whatever - needs to be mindful of this 'core' gameplay. We're simply not a big enough team to do everything to the level of fidelity we'd like, so we need to focus on making a consistent core platform that we, and the community, can build upon.

In the past, we've hurt ourselves by not thinking carefully about the dependencies new features have with each other. To some extent, some early decisions in Arma 3 risked making the same mistake. Someone has a passion for something, so a feature is bolted on without appropriate consideration of the 'big picture'. Now, I can't say Arma 3 will fix these problems entirely, but I hope the ship (HMS. Splendid) is steering in a new direction.

And when asked about his forums signature:

Military - Basic infantry-centric gameplay is backed up/ augmented by an array of military hardware, creating a rich, balanced pool of assets and opportunities for gameplay

Game - Fundamentally, it's an authentic 'experience', which engages and rewards players over time, rather than a 'tool' that educates or a 'show' that entertains immediately

Infantry focus - Assets and technology promoting, supporting, and balancing diverse infantry-based gameplay are the primary focus

Hell, he even addressed the "accessible" in that sig: "Refined controls and animations focused upon fluidity of movement"

Somehow I believe that Jay's an infantry CQC fan... ;)

From what we've all seen at E3 and other demos, infantry movement/combat looks MUCH MUCH more fluid that before.

Everyone, watch this E3 2012 video in 720p HD and skip to 7:41 RIGHT NOW:

[Iroquois Pliskin 0]

Somehow I believe that Jay's an infantry CQC fan... ;)Everyone, watch this E3 2012 video in 720p HD and skip to 7:41 RIGHT NOW:

Yeah, kinda old news -- I used to spam the forums with GamesCom infantry vids. :cc: At least the infantry movement is up to FPS standards, and we have the classic weapon floating point w/ freelook.

[chortles 263]

Yeah, kinda old news -- I used to spam the forums with GamesCom infantry vids. :cc: At least the infantry movement is up-to FPS standards.

I used this particular batch of E3 infantry video because of the segment at 7:41; I don't recall which video it originally came from, but I thought that it was one of the best summations of just how... different infantry movement and weapon handling can be in Arma 3.

Funny thing re: your use of "FPS standards"... I remember a dev saying last year that mouse acceleration and smoothing were "fps standard" as well. And there's still that time that Atomic PC said of the E3 build:

Bohemia has tightened up the shooting mechanics to make it feel much more like a traditional shooter when you’re on the ground; there’s a sense of responsive twitchiness to the infantry combat that ARMA has lacked before.

Edited February 28, 2013 by Chortles

[Iroquois Pliskin 0]

I used this particular batch of E3 infantry video because of the segment at 7:41; I don't recall which video it originally came from, but I thought that it was one of the best summations of just how... different infantry movement and weapon handling can be in Arma 3.

Give me a sec, I'll pull similar examples from GC... Here,

One of the more famous presentations,

Scuba infantry starting @ 2:48.

The next one is excellent,

• Infantry training/obstacle course @ 1:10
  
• Lean from cover anims in 3rd person view @ 1:37
  
• CQB in 3rd PV @ 2:13 in a very narrow hallway and room
  
• Course runs till about 4:37, then second after you see side arm to primary transition animation & back in 3rd PV.
  Long-range sniping @ 6:43 - Love the bullet hit effects, passes thru that sucka like a hot knife. Very believable ballistics in this demo.
  Infantry inventory system (G key/gear) that had been used in he GC build can be seen from 11:45 onward.
  

Edited February 28, 2013 by Iroquois Pliskin

[chortles 263]

Aren't you thinking of the beginning of part 2? Unless you meant the night combat in this video? For me a Gamescom video that I use was a separate video where Gaia/Moricky ends up with a Vector... that he initially forgets to get ammo for... specifically for the portion where he has the soldier go up some stairs and turns to get to the top and fire from within the platform, then run back down.

[Iroquois Pliskin 0]

Aren't you thinking of the beginning of part 2?

You ninjad in the reply, I posted part 2 see above. :) Another one,

• Transition from underwater to land @ 3:14. All infantry anims are of relevance for the overall performance in my view.
  
• Same obstacle course as above, run by a dev @ 11:08
  
• Claymores/antipersonnel mines demo @ 13:20. You can see some poor sucka flying on a mine in the very beginning.
  
• Tripwire mine/charge @ 13:50 (I loved those in ACE2)
  
• Claymore vs. 3 targets @ 14:30.
  Bouncing Betty wasn't shown in this vid, there's another one w/ the same demo.
  

Someone doing a timed pistol run on the course Chortles posted,

Pretty good anims/mechanics. It was probably the player's first time here.

Edited February 28, 2013 by Iroquois Pliskin