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sudayev

Libya today

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So know think about Saudi Arabia, ruled by religious minority (Shias, while 90% of citizens are Sunni), with Sharia law, and position of women, which is lower even when comparing with Iran (Iran is pretty liberal on this, they allow women to vote or have their own businesses, Ghaddafi Libya was even better, "European" I could say). Saudi Arabia is criticized by many human rights organizations. So why there's no international pressure on Saudi regime? Why they (or better word: "we" - western countries) are obsessed with Libya or Syria, and don't care about Saudi Arabia or Yemen? Ghaddafi was killed with help of our bombs. But why Mubarak could escape to his house in Sharm el-Sheikh? He was even offered refuge in Israel by Benjamin Eliezer! Only because he was our dictator? And Ghaddafi was not?

Can you check what you write is true and relevant before posting it here please?

Firstly the Saudi Royal family are Salafi not Shia and the other dominant pillar in Saudi power the Al ash-Sheikh are Sunni.

Gaddafi and Assad have turned their armies on the civilian population resulting in thousands of deaths from heavy weaponry, that didn't happen in Tunisia, Egypt or Yemen did it?

Overall, I agree with you, but on this you're wrong. China bought some of the Libyan oil fields before revolution, but after Ghaddafi death everything was sold to French and German companies (even fields which were state-owned before - source of Libyan wealth). (Source: Raport WTO 12/2011 - Polish military-oriented magazine, unfortunately article is not on the net, but I bet that there is more on that on western websites/newspapers)

Completely untrue, yet more utter nonsense:

Reuters- China's top two state oil firms have agreed to lift a total of about 140,000 barrels of crude oil per day from Libya under term deals for 2012, set to raise China's crude purchases from the North African exporter after supply disruptions last year.

http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/03/01/china-libya-oil-idUSL4E8E113820120301

The Libyan National Oil Company still controls 70% of production, so which German and French company bought all the oil fields?:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Oil_Corporation#Libyan_civil_war_and_transition

Were you aware there is a Libyan oil conference and trade exhibition in Tripoli next month?

http://www.oilandgaslibya.com/venue/

List of Exhibitors:

http://www.oilandgaslibya.com/exhibitor-list/

So this other info you gave us about the security situation in Tripoli is also not true?

Edited by PELHAM

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exactly, from our point of view enlightened despot (Kadaffi, Hussein) was much better for our world (safety)

Yes, because gassing innocent Kurds is a sign of enlightenment.

no, there was much lower criminal level,
Because crime was legal, as criminals ran the country.
the same bullshit about freedom of travel or etc. , try to hunt for debtor when there is freedom, i am hunting debtor and i know how freedom of travel and lack of control is bad,

So just because a particular freedom is inconvenient to you, we should take it away from everyone? Maybe I am offended by the stuff you post on the internet. Maybe SB should take your computer away.

the other things is social safety (jobs) freedom, that i feel free to set family, cause i will get flat, child-support etc. when there is no it, i am not free to have family, so what kind of freedom you talk about in situation when basic human needs are not fulfilled and you must work hard to pay 30 years rates for bank (credit for flat)

Just because something is essential, doesn't mean you are entitled to get it for no cost. The guy who builds the apartment building also needs to put food on his family's table, you know.

tell me what is the difference between court decision made for party and made because of bribe from businessmen ? is there a difference for someone whose oppressor get away with crime ?

is it freedom ? for me not at all,

My grandmother was given such a flat after her home outside Lwow was confiscated by the Soviets. Do you see that as a just system? Do you have any idea what private property is?

Everything government gives you, it can also take away. Including your freedom and your life. Under Communist system, you are alive just because the leadership doesn't want you dead.

Platforma Obywatelska party's bullshit

in 90s we lost jobs, homes, etc. many thousands people committed suicides because of economic reasons,

income is not up, they changed way of providing stats (they count "average salary" in different way than before, Profesor Belka, boss of bank told it and it was written in money.pl service, 8% of growth is "statistical trick"), people i know around (and myself) lost extra-money "premie", etc. i have 3000-4000 PLN less on my PIT, than in 2008 i had, i don't have any growth, i have 5% less than i had , some of my friends have 10 or more percent less, but rate for bank is bigger, pay for electricity and gas is bigger, also payment for flat will be bigger, since city hall changed something in Warsaw, also tickets for travel are more expensive etc.

so not only my year-salary is smaller for 5-6% (PIT), but also taxes and prices are bigger, don't make here PO-bullshit propaganda,

10% of my friends lost job this and last year, level of unemployment (add milion of emigrants which left PL after 2004) is over 13% officially counted ,

prices of medicament bought by my mother or by my neighbor also raised since 1-st of Jan,

many of my friends lost some percent of salary , we have bigger... credits in banks,

you know what i owe to free market ? that i cannot afford to have my own flat, that i was looking for job very long to take low-payed job (although i had MSc and good marks) , i cannot have family cause i cannot buy flat, few people that i knew (who worked in liquidated manufactures) committed suicides cause they were too old for employers , etc. along with freedom i can see lots of lads in Adidas/Nike/Reebok clothes which terrorize neighborhood and some other guys that should be imprisoned long ago walk laughing with golden necklace,

My sources are all independent of the Polish political system. Tusk can lie about some statistics but he can't buy out every economist in the country, you know. Just consider the fact that Poland has a greater economic output than Saudi Arabia. In 1988, GDP was somewhere in the $50 billion range, now it's fourteen times greater. That ought to say something.

Oh, and the very fact that you can go on the internet and express your opinions without having your brains ventilated by SB is something you owe to the free market society you live in.

Financial crime and bank corruption are an unfortunate reality, but they are indicative of a lack of economic freedom, not an abundance of it. Poland's markets are still not free enough.

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My sources are all independent of the Polish political system. Tusk can lie about some statistics but he can't buy out every economist in the country, you know. Just consider the fact that Poland has a greater economic output than Saudi Arabia. In 1988, GDP was somewhere in the $50 billion range, now it's fourteen times greater. That ought to say something.

The biggest scandal in Poland is the amount of counterfeit vodka being consumed:

http://nds.coi.gov.uk/content/Detail.aspx?ReleaseID=422760&NewsAreaID=2

lol

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The biggest scandal in Poland is the amount of counterfeit vodka being consumed:

http://nds.coi.gov.uk/content/Detail.aspx?ReleaseID=422760&NewsAreaID=2

lol

This whole propaganda bull we hear that Poland did survive the global crisis only because of 'smart and prosperous' rule of Tusk regime is a lie. Polish economics is poorly connected with western economic bonds and the economy survived on it's own. We export a few sacks potatoes here and there and everything is ok :D

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Was Marie Colvin/Remi Ochlik a terrorist?

Are you really that sure that they was killed by Syrian army? Do you know French cameraman Gilles Jacquier of France 2 TV was killed by grenade thrown by terrorist and western media completely fabricated the story to put guilt on Assad? Do you know that terrorists are killing civilians and acting just for making propaganda videos? You can google it all.

Why is the Red Cross still being kept out of Homs and why is there a restriction on reporting from Syria?

I don't think Red Cross is being kept out beacuse of propaganda but rather because of security and as Assad said, reporters are free to report from Syria. Just look, his words:

By the way, Ochliks are example of doing free reporting among terrorists in Syria.

Edited by batto

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spooky the official support of terrorism unfortunately came from east block

you probably not aware of it, but like 75% of all terrorism groups in middle east and africa was trained and sponsored from Warsaw pact

yes even my country not just helped with 'comrade' style donation of semtex and weapons

but the state had full scale education and training of terrorist members, leaders, officers and such

all overseen by KGB . our STB and other military branches

and even elsewhere in world, the most brutal and most casualties guerrilla and terrorism groups are leftovers from East block support

i'm not saying west block is w/o blood on hand, it's just way less

O RLY? Well, what about UNITA, Afghan mujaheeden, Kurdish separatists in Iraq, Nicaraguan Contras, Kosovo liberation army?

Yeah they keep making the same mistake - supporting corrupt dictators. Assad will be out of Syria shortly. You expect Syrian's to forgive what has happened and embrace those who blocked UN resolutions, blocked humanitarian efforts, blocked Arab league progress and looked the other way while people died? Can someone prepare a future thread describing how wonderful life was in Syria under Assad lolz.

Well, seems like you don't think that Saudi, Qatari, Bahraini rulers are the same dictators as Assad, do you?

If Russia and China did the right thing they would be welcomed back and would no doubt have the majority of the contracts because they work cheap and would be more familiar with all the equipment. Too late now tho, they have supported Assad and ruined any future involvement in building a future for Syria. So things will only get worse as they have no option now but to prop up Assad while more people die. If only they had learned that lesson in Libya?

The only lesson to be learned in Libya - is to provide help as much as possible to the country's government.

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Originally Posted by PELHAM

If Russia and China did the right thing they would be welcomed back and would no doubt have the majority of the contracts because they work cheap and would be more familiar with all the equipment. Too late now tho, they have supported Assad and ruined any future involvement in building a future for Syria. So things will only get worse as they have no option now but to prop up Assad while more people die. If only they had learned that lesson in Libya?

It's only going to be a problem for Russia if Assad lost in anyway, with regular supplies of weapons for defensive purposes, I can't see that happening, we haven't seen Generals or anyone else leave the Govt of Syria, best estimates for the Free Syrian army are around 1,000.

At best at the moment the so called up rising, appears to armed gangs.

For weeks were were told of mass killings all over Syria, and for the last four weeks reporters have been operating in Syria, I haven't seen one report of mass killings, no pictures nothing, some odd photos of children in hospitals but nothing to convince me that it's all out war.

The west can't do shite in Syria, this one is a sit back and watch situation, it's nothing like Libya.

Edited by Eble

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It's only going to be a problem for Russia if Assad lost in anyway, with regular supplies of weapons for defensive purposes, I can't see that happening, we haven't seen Generals or anyone else leave the Govt of Syria, best estimates for the Free Syrian army are around 1,000.

At best at the moment the so called up rising, appears to armed gangs.

For weeks were were told of mass killings all over Syria, and for the last four weeks reporters have been operating in Syria, I haven't seen one report of mass killings, no pictures nothing, some odd photos of children in hospitals but nothing to convince me that it's all out war.

The west can't do shite in Syria, this one is a sit back and watch situation, it's nothing like Libya.

Also the lack of oil = no intervention from the west funnily enough.

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Sudayev when i read about great things in our economy from RangerPL i wonder is he living in PL actually (his English skills looks like native, very good level of English as for someone in 2-nd class in secondary school (Liceum) 2 years before ending secondary school "matura" ) , he is 17 y.o. so he doesn't even know problems with getting job after studies, problems with buying own flat and 300% of overprice by "house developers companies" (which we have since we are 19 y.o. till 24/25 y.o.) and he know better our life situation ;)

GDP is not important, prices of basic things vs. salary are important, for example price of flat to live in, flat is most basic thing

in my city for 35 square meters flat (2 small rooms+kitchen+WC) you have to pay at least 250 000-300 000 PLN "without furniture"

policeman earns 2500, person in ministry earns 3500, person in shop earns 1200, person in office can earn 1500, 1700

bank wants at least 30% by 10 years , so you will take 300 000 and pay 400 000 for banks (at the best with mortgage credit on parents house as secure but bank says my salary should be at least 3500 to hand so i don't have credit-ability for bank as single and i must marry someone ),

RangerPL knows better at the age of 17 how i live here and whats are my problems to buy pair of shoes or PC for Arma3 ?

yes, great achievement of being free ;) that i cannot leave parent's house to own flat or i have to give 1200 every month for hire of one-room flat with girl "wynajem na spole"

all those economical achievements are great but for minority of society, 5% is rich, 10% is middle class, 20%-poor middle class , rest is poor or more poor than they before (cause now noone gives flats for free and 20% girls from poor families prostitute in big cities to afford study ), i suppose it would look the same in Libia in future, they will regret like many of us regret system-change ,

RangerPL, tell me, do you live in Poland ? which city ? whom by profession are your parents that you support present stage so much ? lawyers or bank managers ? or you are Polonia and you live outside Polish borders and read articles only about our economy not being touched by it in real life ? at age of 17 you do not work, you do not need to worry about having flat, you do not need to worry about bank credits etc.

Financial crime and bank corruption are an unfortunate reality, but they are indicative of a lack of economic freedom, not an abundance of it. Poland's markets are still not free enough.

yeh, yaah, and when inspectors go to control enterprise/busines, they have to annouce control 3 days before (An Act of freedom in busines - Ustawa o swobodzie gospodarczej) , so we cannot control someone and caught him in the act :/ cause i have to write annoucement about control 3 days before :/ wtf lack of freedom, it is total mess and lack of control , in other countries inspectors just control when they need or force doors with police assist , here i cannot do anything and tickets are extremely low

we are much more liberal than most of EU countries are

Just because something is essential, doesn't mean you are entitled to get it for no cost. The guy who builds the apartment building also needs to put food on his family's table, you know.

and he need golden plated plate and newest Ferrari , yea... cause he corrupted someone and owned ground from city hall on very low price and now speculates it selling it 300% higher, but noone other could buy it except his company ;]

if apartment can be built for 2500 in Ostroleka city, why it is built for 12 000 in Warsaw ??? concrete is the same price, lorry is the same, but i have to pay 3-4 times more for one square meter than in other city (in which there are no jobs) :/

where do you live RangerPL, please enlight me , i live in Warsaw, i graduated Warsaw Univeristy of Technology decade ago, i was over year unemployed looking for any job and sending lots of job-offers and having only very very low pay offers like most of us had before 2004 (before EU opened) , how about you , cause you know so much about our economy ? in profile you are 17, so you don't even have no age that allows to work (and sign agreements)

?

what is 1000 victims in Syria or Libia comparing to 20 000 suicides because of economic reasons (lack of job) in PL since 1989 till 2004 ? do you know how many people hanged themselves in my street when FSO (car factory), Pollena (chemical factory), PZO (glass and optics factory) were liquidated cause noone wanted 50 y.o. people replaced by machines, cause human was not effective comparing to machine ? and what you know about safety on streets before 1989 ? how old you were in 1989 ? i was 12, you were born in 1994 and you know better than me ? i remember life before 1989, cause i was 12 when communism felt and i remember gangs shooting on my street, i remember bombs set under BMW of first gangsters blowing their BMW , i remember hanged raped woman hanged on branch of tree under my windows etc. i remember heroin-addicted junkies lying on my corridor in block etc.

i remember guys with needle "give me money or i will stab you with AIDS needle" etc. i remember gypsies with knife under my throat that robbed me in 1992

and i also remember that when i was little i could play all evening with friends behind block of flats, there were no junkies, criminals were imprisoned :) you were born 5 years later than communism felt , you don't remember clean streets without "lads" (dresy), Militia was not toying with criminals, just shooting them

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Whisper, this sentence is just ridiculous. If you really think like that, you should be the first to throw away PC, TV set and phone and live in a log cabin in mountains, eating reindeer you had hunted.

I'm trying to decipher what you means by that...

* Is it that you don't see anything wrong with a government setting up large scale data spying on its citizens? Is that normal for you? If so, I don't ponder anymore about some answers here, if some are capable to be sheep-herded to the point of accepting this from their govt. ... well, there's not much to discuss anymore. Don't worry, your super govt is doing everything for you, sleep well.... None of them have personal agenda, never!

* Is it that you don't believe such a system was in place?

Facts : During the visit of Ghaddafi to France some years ago (where btw, he was welcome as a hero and genius leader by our govt by that time, because he had money and was rdy to buy us things), many trade agreements have been made, amongst them, Amesys, company of Bull, a french computer manufacturer, and specialist in DPI (Deep Packet Inspection) technology used to dig into data information transiting on ISP networks, has been chosen by Ghaddafi to install the infrastructure to be used to (officially) "fight against child-porn" in Lybia.

You can go to Amesys website to check what exactly they are selling, they don't hide what it is (well, they didn't until some noise has been made on their contracts with Lybia, I've not checked since), it's large scale (as written : "nation wide") data inspection. DPI technology are perfectly capable of this, if they can be put somewhere in a network where all trafic will flow (and I know this perfectly because I installed such DPI equipments years ago in a few networks), which is possible when a single state-run ISP is in place in said country.

With this technology, you are able to single out any data communication made going through the DPI infrastructure, which means, read everything written and read by the guy, etc... for anyone you chose in the range of your "customers". You can copy of a manual given to Libyans here

This has passed under radar of anyone until some UK GI if I'm not mistaken, entering official buildings in Tripoli, found a full operational center label "Amesys" everywhere with what appeared to be files about many opposition activists.

So this is not some conspirationist theory going on, this is what actually happened.

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Also the lack of oil = no intervention from the west funnily enough.

LOL, funny how that seems to be a link.

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@ Vilas i agree with you what you have written here. I have gathered similar observations on how life quality of Polish young adults have been decreased during the recent years. We reached this state where a single working man can't afford to live on it's own while the govt boasts on the tv how the gdp has grown. This is so wrong.

Going back to topic, whisper's post. Is there a government who doesn't spy on it's own citizens ? Our 'civilized' governments spy us on every step while invigialtion methods & surveillance techniques are so 'gentle' that the targets are not even aware of being spied. Echelon, project indect, self strip-teasing on facebook is this what we really want these days. Spying agencies don't want to stress us with the surveillance because we tend to behave unnatural when being watched. Last time I hard a loud affair with spying in Poland was few years ago when it became obvious that some journalists and reporters were eavesdropped by our secret service agencies.

Edited by Sudayev

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Hi all!

Firstly the Saudi Royal family are Salafi not Shia and the other dominant pillar in Saudi power the Al ash-Sheikh are Sunni.

So the following sentence is false?

"the Saudi public school religious curriculum continues to propagate an ideology of hate toward the “unbeliever,†that is, Christians, Jews, Shiites, Sufis, Sunni Muslims who do not follow Wahhabi doctrine, Hindus, atheists and others"

(Freedom House report, 2006)

Gaddafi and Assad have turned their armies on the civilian population resulting in thousands of deaths from heavy weaponry, that didn't happen in Tunisia, Egypt or Yemen did it?

Yes, you're right! Hosni Mubarak (BTW: great friend of Israel in world of Islam, so + for him) was really peaceful towards his citizens! Just read Reuters news from January 29, HRW report from February 8, or AP news from April 14 (AP website's down, article hosted by Egyptian website).

All that love from one guy!

Completely untrue, yet more utter nonsense:

Really? Check this.

My favorite part:

"“We don’t have a problem with Western countries like Italians, French and U.K. companies,†Abdeljalil Mayouf, a spokesman for the Libyan rebel oil company Agoco, was quoted by Reuters as saying. “But we may have some political issues with Russia, China and Brazil.â€"

Or...

"Colonel Qaddafi proved to be a problematic partner for international oil companies, frequently raising fees and taxes and making other demands. A new government with close ties to NATO may be an easier partner for Western nations to deal with. Some experts say that given a free hand, oil companies could find considerably more oil in Libya than they were able to locate under the restrictions placed by the Qaddafi government."

Also BBC on this topic.

And there lies an answer on "who owns Libya oil fields" question:

"The facility is owned by Mellitah Oil and Gas, a joint venture between the NOC and the Italian firm ENI, which is the biggest investor in Libya's energy sector."

And CNN, twice.

With another nice sentence: "Italy's Eni is the largest operator in the country.".

@Whisper:

Is it that you don't see anything wrong with a government setting up large scale data spying on its citizens?

I know it's wrong, but I don't see there is a problem with Ghaddafi setting up such system, while every other free, democratic western country already have it. So for me argument "Ghaddafi is spying his citizens! It's bad!" is not an argument, because my country, and our allies, do the same. For me it's wrong, but looks like for democratic governments it's OK. So the only way to not being spied, is throwing away your phone and PC...

Kind regards

Kzo

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yes, Your last sentence also makes me laugh

we are not spied ? we are not spied ?

location of mobiles, kept SMS for several years, bank sending reports to special services etc. etc. etc. everywhere cameras etc.

of course those are safety measures , but hell, lets not call them bad when they are set in other country

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@Whisper:

I know it's wrong, but I don't see there is a problem with Ghaddafi setting up such system, while every other free, democratic western country already have it. So for me argument "Ghaddafi is spying his citizens! It's bad!" is not an argument, because my country, and our allies, do the same. For me it's wrong, but looks like for democratic governments it's OK. So the only way to not being spied, is throwing away your phone and PC...

Kind regards

Kzo

I can guarantee you this is not the case at least in my country. If in worst case scenario, such DPI infrastructure was put in place in every other ISP covering the country, I know the one I currently work for doesn't, and is a safe place to get Internet access in this regard. And I'm pretty sure it's the same for most of the other ISPs here.

This is where I'm freaking glad we don't have a state-run Internet anymore here in France. I can't imagine what the muppet we currently have as president would have done with state control on Internet access, seeing what experiments he did with foreign countries (Lybia is not the only example one can find, you can find, for example, the main uranium suppliers of France amongst Amesys clients, and we are heavily relying on uranium for our energy bill here... causes, consequences ...)

@Vilas : I'm talking about true Internet access, ie the fixed one. The mobile Internet access we are sold is not Internet. It's web and mail, nothing more, and yes, you're handling lots of privacy information through that.

I'm also talking about Internet. Not GoogleNet or FacebookNet, which are also complete privacy killers and can be seen as spy agencies. Internet is something else than that.

Edited by whisper

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@Whisper

Well, I can only say that you're lucky. Here we were spied even before Internet era. Imagine that every child who's going to school have "briefcase" that contains informations collected during educational process. And it's not only about grades and such, it contains also your medical report (this info should be restricted), informations about your parents, even (if teacher is able to write such report) informations about your relations with classmates, like who's your best friend. Such "briefcase" is available not only for your teachers, or director of the school, but also to civil officials and police! All that when it's written (in other gov't act) that none of this info should be given to anybody apart from school workers, and police can't have ANY informations about you until you're involved in some case (so they can know your address only after they fined you for speeding).

Now there is problem, because government wants to digitalize this database, and GIODO (Polish data protection supervisor) protested, and said that this database is illegal, because it contains informations about graduates. According to law, after graduate your informations should be destroyed, because purpose of this is to "help with your education process".

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I live in germany, the german state is propably the number one world champion when it comes to spying on its citizens.

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aren't SMS not collected in your country Whisper ?

aren't bank reports are not collected and sent for tax police ?

you say about Lybia control of internet, i would say about private big monopolistic companies who do the same (cause they own 90% of websites)

if you call it lack of freedom, than please tell me how you would call following situation:

you have materials (proofs, documents) that son of one rich businessman is cheater and thief, prosecutor refused to take it, you want to give it to the press and publish it, but noone allows, so is it freedom or not ?

in one case freedom is limited by "guy in uniform" in other it is limited by "guy in most expensive suit"

what's the difference for end-user ?

no difference

just like i hear bullshits about "previously you had no freedom to travel cause there were borders" , i can't remember any problems with traveling to Slovakia when we had border, the only problems had drug-smugglers , now you can travel with 1 kg of drugs or machinegun from Poland by Germany to France not controlled, is it good ? someone can be pay-killer and kill you in other country and noone will notice it (but they will notice when you buy vegetables using pay-card to tax you)

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Are you really that sure that they was killed by Syrian army? Do you know French cameraman Gilles Jacquier of France 2 TV was killed by grenade thrown by terrorist and western media completely fabricated the story to put guilt on Assad? Do you know that terrorists are killing civilians and acting just for making propaganda videos? You can google it all.

RT and the Syrian Government are desperately trying to spread that IED garbage to cover up what happened. There is even a report that an autopsy was carried out in Damascus and a nail was found in Colvin's scull (have you noticed that someone has changed the wikipedia page based on 2 unconfirmed media stories?). What they fail to mention is that Colvin and Ochlik were not alone when they died, there were 4 other journalists present who witnessed the multiple rocket attack. 3 rockets hit their building. Paul Conroy was wounded by the same shell that killed Colvin along with William Daniels, Edith Bouvier and Javier Espinosa, details here:

http://www.pressgazette.co.uk/story.asp?storycode=48839

She was staying at a building being used as a makeshift press centre, and alongside the other Western journalists had followed the Middle Eastern custom of taking off her shoes when she entered.

She was on the ground floor of the building when rockets hit the upper floors and exploded.

The journalists, including three French nationals and a Spaniard, were said to be covered in dust and uninjured - but fearing the building was being targeted they “prepared to flee but had to retrieve their shoes firstâ€.

The Sunday Times report stated: “Colvin ran to the hall, where she had left hers. As she reached it, a rocket landed at the front of the building, a few yards from her. The blast killed her and Rémi Ochlik, a French photojournalist, instantly, burying them in debris.

Conroy told Sky News: "I've worked in many warzones. I've never seen or been in shelling like this. They're systematically moving through neighbourhoods with munitions that are used for battlefields. It's unfathomable, the sustained barrage.

http://www.journalism.co.uk/news/paul-conroy-on-syria-massacre-horrifying-to-think-what-s-happening-now-the-cameras-are-gone-homs/s2/a548170/

By the way, Ochliks are example of doing free reporting among terrorists in Syria.

Reporters without Borders Press Freedom Index 2011-2012, recognise who is 4th from bottom just below Iran?

http://en.rsf.org/press-freedom-index-2011-2012,1043.html

Assad has given permission for 200 media groups to enter Syria but their movements are strictly controlled. They are escorted and can only visit certain events and talk to Syrian citizens when the government minders allow it.

Colvin and Ochlik, along with many other journalists, had to sneak across the border from Lebanon as due to the reporting restrictions they were refused entry to the country and had to enter illegally. It's nothing new in Syria. I'm not sure if anyone remembers the travel documentary by Dom Jolly some years ago? He was followed everywhere by an official government minder.

Also see this account from Al Jazeera's Dorothy Parvaz who went missing in Syria last year only to turn up 19 days later in Iran:

http://www.aljazeera.com/indepth/opinion/2011/05/2011518184325620380.html

Blindfolded, I was led to the first of my three cells - a tiny, sparse room, roughly three paces across and five length-wise. On the floor, on a ratty brown blanket, sat a young woman whose face was puffy from crying. She said she was 25 and from Damascus and indicated that she had been there for four days. She didn't know why she'd been picked up by the Mukhabarat, the Syrian intelligence service.

The BBC http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/theeditors/2011/06/the_difficulty_of_reporting_fr.html

Current FCO advice: http://www.fco.gov.uk/en/travel-and-living-abroad/travel-advice-by-country/middle-east-north-africa/syria

Journalists working in Syria should be particularly aware of the sensitivities of the authorities towards the media, particularly those working for foreign media organisations. In addition, all foreign journalists entering Syria require special permission from the Syrian authorities. A number of foreign journalists have been detained and subsequently released by the Syrian security forces during the crisis. The security forces have also confiscated phones, cameras and video cameras of foreigners in Syria. Like all other visitors to Syria, journalists should take particular care to avoid demonstrations which can and have turned violent.

---------- Post added at 02:06 PM ---------- Previous post was at 01:43 PM ----------

Also the lack of oil = no intervention from the west funnily enough.

The West only acts under UN Security Council resolutions.

The security council passed SC/10200 to protect Libyan civilians which allowed a no fly zone and the subsequent strikes on Gadaffi forces when cities were attacked with battlefield weapons:

http://www.un.org/News/Press/docs/2011/sc10200.doc.htm

They have attempted something similar for Syria but all attempts are blocked by Russia and China. The other thing NATO would require is the cooperation of Turkey. That is not forthcoming as they are sulking in a corner after the realisation that they will never get into the EU. I would agree with you that there is less enthusiasm for several reasons including the lack of oil (well it helps if there is something profitable at the end to replace the enormous costs). Obama is also close to an election and does not want any problems. You can narrow it down to one particular thing if you like but that betrays how deep your thinking is on the matter.

Edited by PELHAM

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@PELHAM: I don't read RT and Syrian gov reports. Try harder. Compared to you I sometimes watch raw footage on bestgore, ... So for example I've seen a unedited footage where Free Syrian Army terrorists killed some random civilian, then they backed out of camera and then camera with other poeples run in to dead body screaming. There is much more, you should visit the site sometimes.

Next time you're going to reposnd to me please don't link BBC, Al Jazeera and other random sites unless they link some sources. I read it but I don't give a flying f*ck. They could also die from guns of terrorists I can't tell. Andrew Pugh has it from timesplus.co.uk which requires me to login or whatever. I can't see original text from Paul Conroy.

I don't know why but "west" media is sooo full of crap about Syria so I'm not going to believe anything from BBC about Syria unless there are some linked sources. Look at this: http://www.cbsnews.com/video/watch/?id=7400719n, I was joking about it in one of my previous posts. What's your opinion? Please reply to this. Because if you seriously believe that mortar grenade used IDCLIP to go through roof and killed 15 invisible peoples I think I don't have to discuss with you anymore.

Of course I'm glad I don't live in Syria and I believe that it's not too different from Iraq under Saddam but Free Syrian Army are dirty terrorists without any limits and I hope Assad will kill them all before NATO intervention. Assad promised democratic reforms so west should just shut up and let it happen instead of sanctions, ...

Do you seriously believe that west acts only because they want freedom for Syrian people? Please reply to this, I'm really interested!

Edited by batto

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aren't SMS not collected in your country Whisper ?

aren't bank reports are not collected and sent for tax police ?

you say about Lybia control of internet, i would say about private big monopolistic companies who do the same (cause they own 90% of websites)

if you call it lack of freedom, than please tell me how you would call following situation:

you have materials (proofs, documents) that son of one rich businessman is cheater and thief, prosecutor refused to take it, you want to give it to the press and publish it, but noone allows, so is it freedom or not ?

in one case freedom is limited by "guy in uniform" in other it is limited by "guy in most expensive suit"

what's the difference for end-user ?

no difference

just like i hear bullshits about "previously you had no freedom to travel cause there were borders" , i can't remember any problems with traveling to Slovakia when we had border, the only problems had drug-smugglers , now you can travel with 1 kg of drugs or machinegun from Poland by Germany to France not controlled, is it good ? someone can be pay-killer and kill you in other country and noone will notice it (but they will notice when you buy vegetables using pay-card to tax you)

Beware, OT following.

1) I'm talking about the subject I know, because it is my job, and nothing else. So I'm not going to comment on euro, borders opening, bank accounts and what not.

2) No, most of the time, "big company" driven Internet access is not exactly the same as "state driven" Internet access. They lack the political and ideological motive. They are set up to make maximum profit. So its not exactly comparable, and the very fact that state driven Internet Access is unique and enable technically systematic DPI to be set up is wrong, and worst than private company driven Internet access. That said, ISPs are not all equal in what service they offer to you, and too often, this service is not Internet access (see below).

3) unique and centralized state driven Internet is polar opposite to Internet architecture. Internet has no center, no central point where every traffic goes. One could nuke america (nota : this is not a bash on USA, it's just that, if there was a "owner of Internet" (ie, a center), it would be USA), and Internet would still function. Google wouldn't, but Internet would be functional.

4) Your view of Internet as some kind of big pipe connecting you to big web sites is skewd and utterly wrong. Which is normal, this is the model which is pushed on you as being "Ze Internet" for several years now by big central companies. They show Internet as such : you are a customer, they are a provider, you buy their product, period. This is very much like TV, you are supposed to be passive and using their service.

This is not Internet. On Internet, your PC has the same rights and capabilities as Google servers. Google gets and push your mails? Your PC can too. Google host your videos? Your PC can too. Google hosts your blog through blogspot service? Your PC can too! If you are concerned about your data being used by big companies, I strongly urge you to simply... avoid using their service. Your Internet is not going to shut down because you stopped using Google.

Big companies own 90% of websites? They don't own your PC. Ultimately, the one external owner who could damage you more is your DNS domain owner. This is the weak link.

5) This very property of symmetry on Internet (anyone connected to the network is equal to others and can act like any other, client, server, for any kind of traffic) can be used as a tool to know the quality of your access. So called "smart"phones on mobile network cannot act as web servers, SMTP relay or IRC chat server => mobile network are not Internet. So yes, for privacy issues, I'd advise staying away from that.

A-centric property of Internet can also be used as a tool to measure your Internet access. If you cannot avoid governmental, or company X, spying, you're not on an Internet access.

6) provided you have an Internet access, your case of sharing knowledge is suddenly not so big. You setup a torrent seed of your compromising information on your PC, you share the torrent, on sites opposing your target, for better spread, or, depending on the importance, with Anon, Wikileaks, whatever.... Need to push detailed report? Setup a web server on your PC, get your domain name, push your page with the information. You should, technically speaking, be able to do that.

7) even if your Internet access is not really one, you have tools to circumvent. Ask the chineses ;)

Internet is a formidable tool for sharing. Instead of trashing it by default because you see big companies on it, use it, it gives you far more possibilities than when you had no Internet.

And no, it is not under control by a few. The users exclusively using centralized, private or state controlled services accessible on Internet are under control. You are not forced to use these centralized services. If you are, you are not on Internet anymore.

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@one_man _clan

I would check out forum rule 6 and remove that link. You can't link to videos like that here.

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-snip-
So now you bring into question my ability to discuss the economics of Poland? I can already expect what's going to happen, you're going to call me out for being a naiive teenager who obviously knows nothing. This is the internet. I'm not going to waste time arguing about that because it'll lead to a pissing contest. I don't pretend to know everything, I'm just correcting things you're wrong about.

If Eastern Europe was such a paradise and capitalist Western Europe was such a zoo, explain to me why East Germany had to build a wall to keep its own people from running away. People were staying in Poland back then because if they tried to leave, SB would throw them in prison. There was no such thing as 'workers paradise'. If you think there was, you've probably watched too much state television propaganda.

I do not think the current system is right. Nor do I think it's perfect. I'm saying is that a reversal to the totalitarian policies of PZPR would be idiotic. Poland is undergoing a transition phase right now, just as every other industrialized country has. Explain to me how the free market capitalist states are decades ahead of ex-Communist states in standard of living.

and he need golden plated plate and newest Ferrari , yea... cause he corrupted someone and owned ground from city hall on very low price and now speculates it selling it 300% higher, but noone other could buy it except his company ;]

if apartment can be built for 2500 in Ostroleka city, why it is built for 12 000 in Warsaw ??? concrete is the same price, lorry is the same, but i have to pay 3-4 times more for one square meter than in other city

It's called supply and demand. Land in Warsaw (like in any other major city) is considered prime real estate, seeing as Warsaw is the wealthiest city in the country, containing a massive amount of industry as well as government buildings and businesses. Naturally, people will be willing to pay more to live there. The same holds true for New York, London and every other major metropolitan area in the world.

Your posts merely prove that you have no clue about how economics works. This is the problem with people nowadays. You complain about corruption and support implementation of strict regulations and then wonder why nobody wants to invest in your country.

i remember gypsies with knife under my throat that robbed me in 1992

Yes, comrade Jaruzelski would have brought his tanks out on the streets to protect you.

Reality is quite shitty, I'm afraid. Not everyone is going to be rich, and most of the banksters are going to get away with it. But if people aren't being treated fairly by the economy, at least they should be treated fairly by the government.

Edited by RangerPL

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napisz gdzie mieszkasz, w jakim mieście , rozumiesz wogóle polski ? bo się posługujesz PL , w jakim miescie mieszkasz ?

i suppose you re just another teenager from USA who thinks that he knows better how we live here, oppose to you, we are adults and we work and have to care about credits, not sitting on ass playing MW3 in parents house

don't say about situation in PL, cause you not live here, you not work here, you not take credits here, you probably live behind the Ocean (visible not only from level of native English, but from topics like US politics, where you are active, cause you probably know it, but you have no idea how is here except probably biased infos from some websites carried by pro-gov liberals and busines)

if not forum rules, i would write only in Polish language to check your ability to speak Polish and judge if you are really Pole (PL) to say about our economics and teach me and Sudayev about OUR conditions of every-day life HERE since late 70s when we were born

kminisz ? na jakim rewirze masz kwadrat ? answer in Polish , cause you know soooo much about our life conditions

Edited by vilas

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@vilas. I'm 28, but I do remember some 80's though ;) You can refresh your memory by watching the old news Dziennik Telewizyjny. This guy here uploads old news from every day :D Recommended channel

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