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State of Multiplayer match types. Now and 8-10 years ago.


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Victor
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Posted 19 February 2012 - 04:08 #1

When OFP was in full swing, there was no shortage of CTFs/C&H's/CTI's/S&H, etc. However since the inception of Domination/Evolution in Arma 1, Co-ops have been the dominant force on the server list. I find this perplexing because in every forum across the internet, every time Arma/OFP is mentioned - the AI is always mentioned after: "The game with all the brainless AI?" Yet, thats the preferred way to play these days... against brainless opponents.

Sure, there are a few pvp servers out there, but they are no longer the dominate force when it comes to Arma/Arma2. I was wondering why you guys think this is and do you think it will change come Arma3 or will the "evolution" or Evolution/Domination continue to "dominate" the multiplayer server list?

.kju -PvPscene-
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Posted 19 February 2012 - 06:38 #2

OFP started with nothing basically. Aside form some basic missions by BI.
So people made some. And they made most what they knew from other games.

Also OFP had no JIP and most servers had ~10-20 players on.
Nowadays most (PvP) players only look at the high player count servers - the very top.
It is also hard to get a server going. With only few people, it is unlikely more will join.
You need to achieve a certain threshold before more will join (10+).

CTI (later Warfare), like Domination and Evo, offers three key things:
+ scale, freedom and range of ways to play how you like it
+ you can participate at any moment
+ you can play it alone/with very few people

The reasons why traditional PvP is so weak has different, but many reasons, like
+ long wait till A1 and sad release state of A1 drove many (PvP and clan) players away
+ Arma never regained again a name as good PvP game (except for CTI/large scale and maybe recently AAS/PR:A2)
+ especially the clan community of similar games (RO/BF/PR) does not get attracted
+ many issues Arma had and still has

What does A3 need to become popular again:
+ dedicated and quality PvP game mode delivered by BI from the start
+ that suits RO/BF/PR type of players
+ better game settings and control defaults for PvP play style
+ better animations
+ largely improved server browser
+ PR, PR, PR to send out the message to the general gamer community (outside of this forum)



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Jedra
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Posted 20 February 2012 - 08:15 #3

From another point of view, I guess that there are not many games out there (military especially) that offer the same level of co-op that Arma 2 offers in multiplayer. For PvP it has lots and lots of competition from FPS type games through to MMORPGs.

Having said that, it would be good if Arma 3 was made more PvP friendly (without detracting from the co-op side). Hopefully BI have looked at some of PvPscene's own tweaks. Two other noteable PvP focused community members (Celery for his missions and Smookie for his animations) are now BI developers so perhaps BI have taken note.

Lastly to undeline what PvPscene said, any pvp type modes have to be publisised and have to be good. There's a lot of competition out there and players are more fickle than they used to be.

Also as for the AI being dumb - I'm not so sure I know of a game to compare it against really. Taking into account what the AI has to achieve in Arma 2, I think it's pretty bloody good. Always room for improvement though.
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jblackrupert
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Posted 22 February 2012 - 01:16 #4

The mass amount of Domination servers [Mostly sitting empty 24/7] wouldn't be such a big deal if they'd just switch to TWO TEAM version.

But then again I've been on a couple of Two team servers that were running for awhile and there was a lot of rage quitting because many of the Coop-op/Domi crowd are afraid of opponents that can out think them
as opposed to the fish-in-a-barrel AI.

tacticalnuggets
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Posted 22 February 2012 - 07:27 #5

OFP started with nothing basically. Aside form some basic missions by BI.
So people made some. And they made most what they knew from other games.

Also OFP had no JIP and most servers had ~10-20 players on.
Nowadays most (PvP) players only look at the high player count servers - the very top.
It is also hard to get a server going. With only few people, it is unlikely more will join.
You need to achieve a certain threshold before more will join (10+).

CTI (later Warfare), like Domination and Evo, offers three key things:
+ scale, freedom and range of ways to play how you like it
+ you can participate at any moment
+ you can play it alone/with very few people

The reasons why traditional PvP is so weak has different, but many reasons, like
+ long wait till A1 and sad release state of A1 drove many (PvP and clan) players away
+ Arma never regained again a name as good PvP game (except for CTI/large scale and maybe recently AAS/PR:A2)
+ especially the clan community of similar games (RO/BF/PR) does not get attracted
+ many issues Arma had and still has

What does A3 need to become popular again:
+ dedicated and quality PvP game mode delivered by BI from the start
+ that suits RO/BF/PR type of players
+ better game settings and control defaults for PvP play style
+ better animations
+ largely improved server browser
+ PR, PR, PR to send out the message to the general gamer community (outside of this forum)


+ better mod management. Imo the most prolific complaint I hear second to frame rate.
Participate in the multiplayer revolution!

NkEnNy
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Posted 22 February 2012 - 10:35 #6

Aside from the list:
More, better, and built in ROUND BASED respawn options would offer a better platform for more realistic missions. There are community built solutions, but all are obviously hacks and not as smooth or slick as even Counter-Strike for Half-life. Obviously one could end the mission, but this would require rapid restarts/votes through the server lobby (or a constant admin). None of which are ideal.

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ARMA 3 Mission packs:Fourplay Coop Mission Pack OUTDATED
Kill things, break stuff. Repeat as necessary.

nomad_man
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Posted 24 February 2012 - 06:47 #7

The mass amount of Domination servers [Mostly sitting empty 24/7] wouldn't be such a big deal if they'd just switch to TWO TEAM version.

But then again I've been on a couple of Two team servers that were running for awhile and there was a lot of rage quitting because many of the Coop-op/Domi crowd are afraid of opponents that can out think them
as opposed to the fish-in-a-barrel AI.


We've hosted a PvP server (Valhalla C&H) a while ago for a few month, unless you have a threshold (for us it was 15 or so players on the server) most people wont' stick around.
We had a preposition to host berserk but i don't want the box sitting idle when we pay money for it. I am willing to give PvP public server another try as long as it can be filled up.

Edited by nomad_man, 24 February 2012 - 06:50.


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Posted 24 February 2012 - 12:31 #8

Human nature is all to do with survival of the fittest. If a mission 'ticks all the right boxes' then it will naturally percolate to the top and become popular.

What I find is that no matter the mission I run, IF I don't go on there (to make the count go to ONE) then noone else joins. If I can get 2 or 3 people to join my server then BOOM it fills quite nicely. Humans tend to use this sheep mentality and will flock to what they perceive as popular - even though the mission may NOT be THAT great. We aren't going to change human nature I'm afraid (as good as BIS are )

All mission makers can do is to produce a mission THEY would love to play and, as Kevin Costner says IF YOU BUILD IT THEY WILL COME. For my mind ... I don't really care if anyone else likes what I do .... as long as I do :)

Edited by Kremator, 24 February 2012 - 12:42.


Enforcer1975
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Posted 26 February 2012 - 15:14 #9

When OFP was in full swing, there was no shortage of CTFs/C&H's/CTI's/S&H, etc. However since the inception of Domination/Evolution in Arma 1, Co-ops have been the dominant force on the server list. I find this perplexing because in every forum across the internet, every time Arma/OFP is mentioned - the AI is always mentioned after: "The game with all the brainless AI?" Yet, thats the preferred way to play these days... against brainless opponents.

Sure, there are a few pvp servers out there, but they are no longer the dominate force when it comes to Arma/Arma2. I was wondering why you guys think this is and do you think it will change come Arma3 or will the "evolution" or Evolution/Domination continue to "dominate" the multiplayer server list?


It's indeed a phenomenon. In games like CoD, BF3 it's a given to show your skill by fighting a human opponent or a human team. In the ArmA universe most people seem to have become pansies ( sorry for the choice of words but would say this is a fact ) who can't take it that there is someone better than them out there. This game is imo the best game to show your skills in in all disciplines like driving, flying running and shooting but all that happens is Coop. I just started playing again two weaks ago, 90% of the servers have Coop ( mostly Evo West Coop ). It's fun to play but after some time it really gets boring because the only "Coop" you get is that you are on the same side...no actual teamplay on public servers if you don't have another teammate or team in Teamspeak.

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Posted 26 February 2012 - 23:41 #10

It's indeed a phenomenon. In games like CoD, BF3 it's a given to show your skill by fighting a human opponent or a human team. In the ArmA universe most people seem to have become pansies ( sorry for the choice of words but would say this is a fact ) who can't take it that there is someone better than them out there. This game is imo the best game to show your skills in in all disciplines like driving, flying running and shooting but all that happens is Coop. I just started playing again two weaks ago, 90% of the servers have Coop ( mostly Evo West Coop ). It's fun to play but after some time it really gets boring because the only "Coop" you get is that you are on the same side...no actual teamplay on public servers if you don't have another teammate or team in Teamspeak.


Well, i would say that coop players are mainly people that are able to go beyond primitive instincts and premature competition. They just accepted that there is always someone better than they are. They just understood that on a server with 20 people it is more fun to play together with 20 people instead of just 10 of them.
Also PvP will never be a real competition unless you make sure all are playing with exactly the same hardware. Don't you think that someone with a 27" screen and a high end graphic card and cpu has some advantages over someone with just a 22" screen and mediocre hardware? Please explain me what this has to do with skills, would you?
When i play for 2-3 hours, mostly i'm flying transport choppers and i end up with zero kills usually. I don't think another player could do this task at least as good as i'm doin it. But guess what, at the end i am satisfied, had a good evening with some friends.

Hell, A2 has a Editor, it has dedicated server exe. If you want PvP, go ahead, create your map, open your server and you're good to go. Obviously, a majority of players want to play coop, else you wouldn't find as much server as you actually do but plenty of PvP servers.
And don't even think of arguing that "proper PvP missions should be included in the game" as the most played coop missions aren't stock arma2 missions either.

You want PvP? Fine, get your finger out, make a map, create a server and become active. Again people just wanting all presented on a silver platter instead of doing it themselves. Why is this? Scared someone could create a better mission than you? Can't take the competition there? Probably because it takes more than quick reflexes to create a challenging map, doesn't it?
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.kju -PvPscene-
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Posted 27 February 2012 - 06:43 #11

Myke please stop. It hurts to read your stuff. Drop off your PvP hate elsewhere.
If you have no idea what you are talking about, maybe better not join in.

And read the thread topic again to avoid getting offtopic.

PS: The same goes for Enforcer..



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Posted 27 February 2012 - 06:51 #12

to avoid getting offtopic.

Sorry, my apologies.

Drop off your PvP hate elsewhere.

I do not hate PvP. In fact i do think that Coop and PvP have the equal right of existence. What i do hate though are such people that think they are superior because they play PvP.
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Posted 27 February 2012 - 13:24 #13

Myke;2112307']What i do hate though are such people that think they are superior because they play PvP.


^^ this.

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Posted 27 February 2012 - 15:45 #14

Myke;2112187']Well, i would say that coop players are mainly people that are able to go beyond primitive instincts and premature competition. They just accepted that there is always someone better than they are. They just understood that on a server with 20 people it is more fun to play together with 20 people instead of just 10 of them.
Also PvP will never be a real competition unless you make sure all are playing with exactly the same hardware. Don't you think that someone with a 27" screen and a high end graphic card and cpu has some advantages over someone with just a 22" screen and mediocre hardware? Please explain me what this has to do with skills, would you?
When i play for 2-3 hours, mostly i'm flying transport choppers and i end up with zero kills usually. I don't think another player could do this task at least as good as i'm doin it. But guess what, at the end i am satisfied, had a good evening with some friends.

Hell, A2 has a Editor, it has dedicated server exe. If you want PvP, go ahead, create your map, open your server and you're good to go. Obviously, a majority of players want to play coop, else you wouldn't find as much server as you actually do but plenty of PvP servers.
And don't even think of arguing that "proper PvP missions should be included in the game" as the most played coop missions aren't stock arma2 missions either.

You want PvP? Fine, get your finger out, make a map, create a server and become active. Again people just wanting all presented on a silver platter instead of doing it themselves. Why is this? Scared someone could create a better mission than you? Can't take the competition there? Probably because it takes more than quick reflexes to create a challenging map, doesn't it?


Sry to tell you but i already took part in editing, and the one who thinks PvPers are superior is you. If you are satisfied not taking any other action in game than flying your friends around, fine by me. As Victor mentioned above i'd rather play against someone who can adapt tactics than having an ai that is either stupid as hell or can shoot you a bullet in the knee from 5km. You won't see a player in a game getting shot at with a supressed weapon from 300m and not react to that, the ai does exactly that because his ai tells him: i am getting shot at + i can't detect the source = let's stay here and go prone.
And there is nothing immature in wanting to compete with others. Trying to be better that oneself or others is in our nature or do you want to tell that the people who are competetive are all immature and think they are superior?

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Posted 27 February 2012 - 16:20 #15

...play against...


I guess these 2 words show best the difference between PvP players and Coop players. PvPers want to "play against" while Coop'ers wants to "play with".

Finally, everyone plays the mode that suits him best. If you preferred mode isn't played, well, you're free to open up your own server which plays your favorite gamemode(s). The question is, what is holding you back?
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Enforcer1975
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Posted 27 February 2012 - 16:34 #16

Myke;2112517']I guess these 2 words show best the difference between PvP players and Coop players. PvPers want to "play against" while Coop'ers wants to "play with".


You forgot "play against, with ..." applies to both modes. Sorry for tripping you ;)

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Posted 27 February 2012 - 16:45 #17

This place has turned into such a shithole, full of opinionated assholes who cling mercilessly to a flawed game while their community counts dwindle and the server lists are empty.

Hey guys, remember when we used to play OFP multiplayer and it was fun? It didn't matter if it was a coop or pvp, we played whatever our favorite server was playing at the moment. We didn't have 'game mode' zealots.

*sigh*

I think this extremism is from frustration from not being able to understand or explain what's really wrong. Because consumers don't need to understand good design or usability, they just 'use it'. But people in this forum THINK they know that gamemode xyz is better or preferred. Domination or other dyn coops run because they run on the server 24/7 persistent mode, it started a bad habit where people don't join empty servers that don't have a mission running. All kinds of shitty design decisions affect the ever present problem of empty servers, regardless of game mode type. And this is exacerbated by the fact that BIS does not move fast enough to solve aforementioned issues before a mass exodus occurs, every game release cycle.

I'm not going to rewrite what has been re-written endlessly by intelligent people who can see the bigger picture like PvPScene.

Consumers arguing over shoddy products does not fix the products flawed design. One more thread dropped in the bucket that will affect nothing.

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Posted 27 February 2012 - 16:45 #18

You forgot "play against, with ..." applies to both modes. Sorry for tripping you ;)


It's okay, i can take it. :P ;)


My major point still is: ArmA 2 is as open a game can be. If something doesn't suit your needs, go ahead and change it. But mostly PvP players i see often "ranting" (sorry, don't know better word) about their wishes not being heard. So that's why i say: if you want it, do it. Not pointed towards you, more generally speaking.
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Posted 27 February 2012 - 19:41 #19

i never thought of arma1 as a pvp game - ever.
I tried it once and it sucked.
having developed team / coop mods for call of duty over 5 years we had been constantly having to deal with run and gun idiots who dont know how to adapt to playing as a team - they joined our server and ruined it by always taking medic and camping or taking the mine-laying guy and then getting themselves killed instead of helping secure objectives with their mines etc...
so yeah we had it bad in cod with crappy players

in arma when a public guy joins our server he'll say hi, try to find out what's happening, be happy when a guy picks him up in a chopper, then eventually join teamspeak and hey presto - it's another 35+ yr old ex mil dude too join the beer drinking chilled crowd of gamers who we play with...

arma to me is a community of likeminded co-operators - if you want to play in dog-eat-dog massive arms-race go play BF3 or COD... that's their niche...

arma in pvp os just too damn laggy and tricky - the reactions and animations just don't work for it and they never have and probably never will.

sayingthat, if someone does develop something useful i'm open minded enough to try it. we made a few CTF maps a month ortwo ago to try them out but everyonefound them really boring...

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Posted 27 February 2012 - 20:41 #20

arma to me is a community of likeminded co-operators - if you want to play in dog-eat-dog massive arms-race go play BF3 or COD... that's their niche...


I think theres opportunity for some great PVP/TVT in Arma... it shouldn't need to be Arena like COD/BF3.

Theres much more edge when playing against a human opponent. and the little i have played in Arma has been brilliant, even the close quarter cat and mouse on Takistan.
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