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Take On Helicopters Beta Patch 88888

beta patch take on helicopters tkoh

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dna
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Posted 01 February 2012 - 14:49 #1

Revision 88888 uploaded

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Dwarden
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Posted 01 February 2012 - 14:55 #2

i like the numbering :cool:

also my commentary here ofcourse apply in this build too: http://forums.bistud...l=1#post2098880

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OMAC
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Posted 01 February 2012 - 16:00 #3

Heavy heli FM is pretty much good to go, landing has indeed been fixed.

Medium heli FM is still sub-optimal (at least for kb/mouse, Expert), although wild right yaw when starting in flight (i.e. Free Flight) has been fixed:

1) heli too readily pitches nose down (!), requiring aft cyclic to counteract, especially on collective increase and at slow forward speeds (i.e. during landing). Landing without autohover is very, very iffy, too often leading to crashes, mainly due to too much nose-down pitch response during collective increase. Nose-down pitch response to collective increase needs to be reduced.

2) When heli starts to pitch nose down, response of aft cyclic key is too slow (aft cyclic input response needs to be increased substantially). Manual trim for aft cyclic helps, but perhaps not enough.

3) too rapid descent at 50% collective (needs a slight tweak imo)

4) check to see if medium heli isn't "falling through objects" as was just fixed for heavy heli.

This beta is definitely a step in the right direction! :)

OMAC
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Posted 02 February 2012 - 02:51 #4

The issue with the medium heli going berserk when trying to land is quite severe. All is good while flying, but when one slows down to land, the heli can easily go completely haywire and enter into the terrible right spin. This is unchanged from previous beta. Entering autohover usually, but not always, stops the spin. The FM behavior at slow speeds needs to be examined closely. It is virtually impossible to land or control the medium heli at slow speeds. Expert, kb/mouse only.

-----------------------------

I've been doing some very hard combat flying with the light heli, and thought that I noticed the heli becoming damaged just from the rough maneuvers. It looks like a heli can now more easily become damaged from rough flying alone (not necessarily a bad thing, but how much damage and when it will occur should be tested). It would save testing time if a quick summary of the principal changes to the FM/damage were posted, as PvPscene and I suggested earlier.

Edited by OMAC, 04 February 2012 - 02:04.


Isaac
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Posted 03 February 2012 - 20:12 #5

So far so good, I have patched to revision infinite 8 patch and the change in flight model from 1.03 is considerable, now the helos, at least when flown with joystick in Expert feel much more "natural", specially the MD500, it is just a joy to fly (I still fly with the MODs from Nightsta1ker but even though I feel different behaviour).

The helos no longer require right yoke correction, soft landings are easy and the birds go where I want them to go, I think you are getting there (well, ok I have no clue how a thing like a Merlin behaves...).

From my point of view you are going in the right direction.

I found what seems to be a very little "glitch", in the construction buildings where the cargo missions are always started if I try to land my skids get sunk like 20 cm in the concrete, but I know it was just fresh concrete so... no worries I didn't saw anything :D

Thanks

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royaltyinexile
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Posted 03 February 2012 - 20:27 #6

Revision infinite 8 patch

I wonder how many more people would download this beta if we marketed it like that :)

just a joy to fly

Although I'm no clearly helicopter expert, I agree, the light helicopter is exactly that: a joy to fly. I agree, too, we've, got a little more to do on the medium and heavy; although, that said, I do enjoy still the challenge that they present.

In the construction buildings where the cargo missions are always started if I try to land my skids get sunk like 20 cm in the concrete

Did you find that this occurred pre-beta? Or is this feedback specific to post infinite-8?


Thanks to all our beta testers, and have a good weekend!
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BoboCZ
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Posted 03 February 2012 - 22:01 #7

I believe that I can still reproduce spinning bug for medium helicopter (expert). Maybe it is because I damaged helicopter, or that I use only twist handle joystick, but I think that bug still persist there.

You can reproduced it in free flight, take medium helicopter and quickly lower collective and at the same time push right pedal, I think that you don't need any flight speed.
You can see on my video, that helicopter start to spinning, and control is again very sensitive, I can somehow manage heli, but helicopter even spin on the ground and stop spinning only after I switch off motor.



I can now reproduced it very easily and don't think that I crippled helicopter, because it behave same like in previous beta patch. I found it because I wanted save poor ship-wrecked person and couldn't save him. I needed quickly transfer him to hospital and every time I end up in spin, and we died :( ;).

edit: Now I see that OMAC already reported it, nevermind :).

Edited by BoboCZ, 03 February 2012 - 22:19.

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OMAC
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Posted 04 February 2012 - 00:17 #8

Your excellent video shows exactly what I have been experiencing! Great repro! :)

Isaac
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Posted 04 February 2012 - 08:33 #9

(...) I agree, too, we've, got a little more to do on the medium and heavy; although, that said, I do enjoy still the challenge that they present.
RiE

Yep, I agree on that too, the Bell should be a challenge (I'm not sure on the Merlin due to the "fly by wire" controls) and in fact in forward and non demanding flight envelopes it also behaves quite nicely, maybe the tail rotor feels a little bit too responsive for my taste but I think this is due to the joystick configuration so far tailor made for NightSta1ker MD500, being said that I agree with OMAC and BoboCZ, whenever I perform slightly aggressive flight envelopes like turns with banking at medium speeds on the Bell it is like the anti torque rotor would immediately blow off and in fact it is very easy to reproduce, fly straight at about 40 knots IAS and slowly apply full rudder (no matter left or right), you will not be there for long believeme...:P

Did you find that this occurred pre-beta? Or is this feedback specific to post infinite-8?

I don't know RiE, sorry about that :o, all what I know is that in the beta happens.
By the way, a little list of small details:
  • On Seattle grid 361080 there is a long industrial building that intrudes the river when the satellite image says the opposite.
  • On Seattle grid 094063 there is a missing bridge (cars go underwater)
  • When in free flight the helicopter spawn point can be located outside the mapped (sat image) area.
  • FLYINHEIGHT command only seems to work when the height is lower than 10 (not including 10).
  • The MD500 co-pilot seat seems to be not reachable by ASSIGNAS... nor MOVEIN (so far I tried cargo, commander, turret, gunner)
  • In the MD500 flight model (I have not tested the others) the in ground effect seems to be completely gone, in fact when flying right over a row of containers now there is no change at all in height (keeping all the controls as constant as possible).
  • The cars that drive over the bridge Homer M Hardley Memorial Bridge over Lake Washington (7-8Km dues East from Larkin base) are flying some meters over the bridge and some of them go underwater too.
  • Whenever there is a tunnel entrance the cars instead of disappear they turn.
Please keep your mind open and be veeeeeeeeeeeeeery patient with negative comments in this forum, some people is far to understand the words like "complexity" "balance" "resource"..., another explanation may be that their sex life is not up to the expectations, that happens...

Have a good week end.

Isaac

Edited by Isaac, 05 February 2012 - 21:20.
Longer list of glitches.

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OMAC
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Posted 05 February 2012 - 16:11 #10

Any chance of increasing ground effect slightly? It now feels negative, that you are almost sucked into the ground! Someone else mentioned this idea recently as well.

Edited by OMAC, 05 February 2012 - 17:56.


Derbysieger
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Posted 05 February 2012 - 17:05 #11

I have a little time on my hands right now so I will do some testing.

cheers

------Edit------

So I took the MD 500 for a quick spin and there are some things I don't like. The first thing I noticed was that I need almost NO pedal input during takeoff/hover/landing (All you need are some tiny corrections and as soon as you fly 30-40knots you don't need pedals at all). I quite like the way it is in 1.03 (although I like the increased sensitivity in this beta). It would be great to hear a real pilot on that matter. Second thing I noticed was that, like OMAC, I had the feeling to get 'sucked' into the ground when I landed. So maybe increase the groundeffect a little bit.
-----
Having flown a little more I can say this sounds more negative than it is. I reduced the sensitivity for the z-axis on my joystick and it is better. I still have the feeling that a little bit more noticable torque effect would be great. A bit like it is on the medium Heli at the moment.

What I do like is the increased sensitivity and responsiveness of the controls. I quite like how the Bell 412 handels. You only need minimal (but constant) control input and takeoff/hover/landing feels much better compared to the MD 500 (I really miss the need for pedal input on that model) .

I fly on Expert btw.



Thanks

Edited by Derbysieger, 05 February 2012 - 20:57.


Isaac
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Posted 05 February 2012 - 21:13 #12

Hi,

While I agree with you on the pedal input for the MD500 stock version (BIS) remember that you can always run the 8 patch + Nightsta1ker MD500, and this REALLY rocks!

I think that BIS capped Sta1ker pedals because some guys using keyboard where unable to fly the bird as it is required a constant input...


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Derbysieger
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Posted 05 February 2012 - 21:43 #13

Very true. However, this is about the beta-patch so I only used TOH without any mods to give feedback. I can't say anything about this patch when I use modifications on the flightmodel and this is what I noticed. I even checked if I was flying on expert. Reducing sensitivity helps but it still doesn't feel right.

Remember I'm not a real pilot so this is feedback based on my experience with previous patches and FM modifications from the community.

____________

Some more feedback on the FM of the med and light heli:


As mentioned before the torque effect is too low. It really is. I'm sorry for mous&keyboard players but this simply doesn't feel right (a basic stick really isn't expensive and enough to fly TOH on expert with community FM mods!). TOH promises to offer a realistic FM and I think it should do exactly that. Patch 1.03 was a step in the right direction but this feels like a step back. When I first took off with this beta I had the feeling I was flying with autotrim. When I fly fast in a straight line I can study the map (not the semi transparent GPS) for a rather long time without loosing control and I can even maintain course to some degree (more noticable in the med heli), that's how little input is required. It's on both, med and light heli, although on the light heli torque effect is lower and on the med heli you need less control input than on the light and it behaves really weird in some situations (see below).


The torque effect on the med heli is weird. I didn't notice this at first because during my first landings I was still moving forward a little bit when I touched the ground.
You need only little pedal input until you hover and translational lift also seems to work until you hover. Then, when you establish a hover, a strong torque effect kicks in and the heli suddenly loses height. I can now, after a few hours with this patch, control this with only little problems but I really need to be ready for it - otherwise I loose control and crash. I'm no expert but this surely isn't right and the effects (torque and loss of translational lift) should be noticable much earlier and not suddenly kick in. A tiny bit of speed and it feels like ETL is in effect.

Edited by Derbysieger, 05 February 2012 - 23:48.


Sylle
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Posted 06 February 2012 - 13:09 #14

Hi,

While I agree with you on the pedal input for the MD500 stock version (BIS) remember that you can always run the 8 patch + Nightsta1ker MD500, and this REALLY rocks!

I think that BIS capped Sta1ker pedals because some guys using keyboard where unable to fly the bird as it is required a constant input...

I understand the guys using the keyboard need to be able to control the chopper as well.
This being said, I find it very disappointing BIS would dumb down the flight model because of this.

We all know ToH is not a procedural sim where you get a kick from flicking switches and going through real-world checks and procedures.
A big part of the thrill in this game should come from a realistic handling of the helicopter...
Therefore I would rather much prefer BIS to work on a flight model that is as accurate as possible.

I read posts from real pilots stating you can need up to 90% pedal input during the hover when pulling a lot of collective.
I want to experience this as well in ToH!!

A new option 'torque-induced yaw' could be added in the options so that pilots using a keyboard can opt to deselect it to have this effect less pronounced, making keyboard control easier.
Would make everyone happy I believe...

Cheers,
sylvain
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OMAC
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Posted 06 February 2012 - 14:36 #15

I think that BIS capped Sta1ker pedals because some guys using keyboard where unable to fly the bird as it is required a constant input...


Thank heavens! :bounce3: One of the best ways I can think of to decrease sales and overall interest in ToH is to force users to buy a controller to play the game. Many who come from the ArmA 2 world don't have controllers because they don't need or want them. So far, BIS has made ALL users happy. I sure hope it stays that way. Three (or more) cheers to BIS!

Derbysieger
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Posted 06 February 2012 - 15:25 #16

Sorry, I can't agree with you on that point. If a realistic flight model means that kb&m players can't fly on expert than that is the way it is. Flying the MD 500 with this beta is dull and feels wrong. Torque induced yaw is a very distinct characteristic and the solution cannot be to reduce it to a point where it is barely noticable, only so players without a joystick can fly on expert. Why have pedals if you don't really need them? In my understanding this difficulty setting should offer flight characteristics as close to the real thing as possible (on a computer) and in that regard this patch is a step in the wrong direction. I would be fine with an added option to enable/disable this, no question about that but if it stays the way it is in this beta I will be hugely disappointed!
I honestly can't understand why someone doesn't want to buy a controller for something like TOH. Everyone who can afford a PC that runs TOH can surely afford a basic Joystick with a manual throttle and x-, y- and z-axis... Those things aren't expensive and enough to play TOH.

I'm raising my concerns because I'm worried that BIS will dumb down the FM for kb&m players. That's something I don't want to see. However, I'll be very happy if they can add an option to disable torque effects for kb&m, that's for sure.

hon0
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Posted 06 February 2012 - 16:26 #17

I totally agree with Derbysieger. I guess in Arma 3 we'll have many setting to fix the level of flying. So why not add these in a futur patch. I love flying in take on cause of the possibily of the chopper. In arma 2 I'm far to do what I CAN do in Toh (game limit). Flying well in TOH requiert some training and that's great! However everyone can fly in arma2.. There is no merit... I love the challenge that represent the md500 and I hope I'll still enjoying it after the patch.
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zentaos
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Posted 06 February 2012 - 16:33 #18

EXACTLY!

Honestly what needs to happen is a change in the way the difficulty settings and flight model settings are differentiated in the options menu.
The difficulty options should be separate from the flight model.
That way, you can set your flight model to be flown using a kb&m but still set your difficulty to Expert.

or maybe just renamed from expert to realistic, then kb&m players won't think that they are having to play the game on a lower level.

If BIS can pull off a realistic Helicopter flight model the sim market and all the helinuts( Hovercontrol :) ) will embrace TOH and the community will boom.

Sealife
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Posted 06 February 2012 - 17:36 #19

Honestly what needs to happen is a change in the way the difficulty settings and flight model settings are differentiated in the options menu.
The difficulty options should be separate from the flight model.
That way, you can set your flight model to be flown using a kb&m but still set your difficulty to Expert.

when all the Flight models are done and near perfect i think the above is a peerfect way to go ,
at moment half of it is in place.
For example if i play with KB/M i chose easy if josytick expert .
i think that Md500 with KB mouse is fantastic with Joystick right now for nice skillfull and also on expert with KB/m it gives me nice challenge, so i guess i wouldnt like to be developer to sort that equiliberium for 10,000 people :)
i like the way its going though especially new Beta patch system

for a dream scenario :
hwn i play live for speed, whilst in lobby , Set up of cars can be exchanged , so if Xml can be exchange in lobby ,then for me its perfect :)

Sylle
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Posted 06 February 2012 - 18:28 #20

Honestly what needs to happen is a change in the way the difficulty settings and flight model settings are differentiated in the options menu.
The difficulty options should be separate from the flight model.
That way, you can set your flight model to be flown using a kb&m but still set your difficulty to Expert.

or maybe just renamed from expert to realistic, then kb&m players won't think that they are having to play the game on a lower level.

If BIS can pull off a realistic Helicopter flight model the sim market and all the helinuts( Hovercontrol :) ) will embrace TOH and the community will boom.


Excellent suggestion! :)
I'm a flightsim-nut myself too (read: I was not familiar with Arma or other FPS games before I bought ToH).
I bought ToH, curious to discover this mix of first person shooter, realistic helicopter simulation, MP and the campaign.
These 4 elements together are never seen before in a flightsim game, neither in an FPS game.

I must say it's a very enjoyable recipe... but in my opinion, we need ALL the ingredients I listed above to keep it attractive, also in the future!

I'm confident BIS will come up with a solution for us, fans of a realistic FM, as they state the following on the ToH website
Authentic Flight Model - Incredibly realistic piloting experience.

For me personally, an accurate flight model really is the biggest requirement to keep on enjoying this game. It's also what brought me here in the first place!
(I did some MP tonight but quitted early as the server had the autotrim feature enabled... no real fun for me!)

Regards,
Sylvain
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