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Observations and disagreements with recent command changes


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-=seany=-
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#1

Posted 16 January 2012 - 18:00

Why is the ai entering a free for all (uncommanded) killing machine mode when I switch from commanders seat to drivers seat in a vehicle?

I can also no longer switch to drivers seat and command from there?

PVP anti lock people are shafting the way the game is played for anyone who uses the AI in vehicles.

I made a test mission in the editor and using AI in a tank when your in any other position than commanders seat is a mess.

I cant believe these major game changing methods are being introduced.

I appreciate what is trying to be fixed, but your going about it the wrong way and breaking the way others like to play the game with this "crusade".

If I could have it my way we would go back to how the targeting worked in OFP and start from there. At the moment it is one bad band aid on another band aid and as I say... it's a mess.

The the most intuitive way the targeting and AI control has ever been was in OFP. Since arma 1 it has gone down hill (starting with the obstructing backspace menu in tactical view and no graphical indication of what has been locked on many objects)

Points:

1. I cant switch to drivers seat temporarily to move the tank without the AI running amok shooting every thing in sight/ completely taking over the tank and locking my commands out (even the # commands eg "all-2-1" no target etc).

2. I can't order the AI to cease fire when in drivers position.

3. I can't assign targets from the drivers position

4. I cant command fire from the drivers position.

Which actual change is it in the change log that has broken all this?

Do you player V player fanatics ever even consider coop players?

I could not even imagine attempting any campaign mission now with these changes, it would be infuriating beyond belief. I can't believe Suma is so easily accepting such a change. I also believe the way its presented not many community members are aware of exactly what is begin changed here. I advise them to load up the mission editor and witness it fro themselves.

The AI are simply not good enough to be allowed to have this control. If you played coop or the campaigns with vehicles you would know this. That is why OFP had the intuitive targeting (some might say over powered) system it had and it worked perfectly. And was needed (and still is!) due to how bad the AI are at driving and prioritising targets.

This change should be reverted.

Edited by -=seany=-, 16 January 2012 - 18:05.

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tonci87
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#2

Posted 16 January 2012 - 18:05

I like the changes. Play as a Team: Problem solved
Posted Image Master of testing for a better Arma and well, for science.
Teach the AI how to drive. Teach AI Tank drivers to turn their front towards the enemy. Give us supression effects for AI . Make AI ragdoll if they get hit. Give us proper animations for throwing Frags. Give us a proper wounding system. Fix the armored vests so that they don´t protect the whole torso. More Civilian assets. Females. Weapon resting. Give us inertia influenced movement depending on the Weapon you have.

Thread Starter
-=seany=-
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#3

Posted 16 January 2012 - 18:08

I like the changes. Play as a Team: Problem solved


Play as a team:- explain.

Should I have team chat with my Ai before I start the mission? Or do they now use VOIP or some thing? What chance is there to put your issues across with brain dead comments like that on this forum... :rolleyes: Why do the first few post when ever I bring some thing like this up involve having to explain and re explain basic concepts to ignorant members who cant even be bothered fully read my post and try understand what I am trying to explain....

"Be sure your brain is in gear before engaging mouth(keyboard).."

Edited by -=seany=-, 16 January 2012 - 18:13.

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kklownboy
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#4

Posted 16 January 2012 - 18:11

I like the changes. Play as a Team: Problem solved

Wrong!.

Seany is correct. Human Player should ALWAYS have command and control of the AI in his team/group. AIs ability to execute commands should be their difficulty settings.
...Free people unbannable...

kremator
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#5

Posted 16 January 2012 - 18:34

PVP anti lock people are shafting the way the game is played for anyone who uses the AI in vehicles.


Totally agree.

At least give PVP a parameter to turn this off, but I want CLEVER AI to take over the functions that I would normally do (in that position)

BigMorgan
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#6

Posted 16 January 2012 - 18:39

I like the changes. Play as a Team: Problem solved


The AI are ignoring "Hold Fire" commands - it's a bug, not a feature.

This is easy to repro and something that ought to be addressed, not condescendingly dismissed as "only a singelplayer problem; therefore, irrelevant."

Is there a devHeaven ticket open on this subject yet?
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.kju -PvPscene-
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#7

Posted 16 January 2012 - 18:57

Nice rant - except it is not nice but mostly rubbish.

1. The change has zero relation to the locking debate.
2. The reasons is the fix of this major bug finally: https://dev-heaven.net/issues/2353
3. Confirmed by the lead programmer himself: https://dev-heaven.n...es/27614#note-3
4. You can assign targets as group leader via radio (2-x) or the context sensitive command cursor
5. Yes there is still the bug of the AI gunner to ignore hold fire: https://dev-heaven.net/issues/27677

X. You could have posted your rant also in here: https://dev-heaven.net/issues/27614
or here: https://dev-heaven.n...es/2353#note-53

See also: https://dev-heaven.n...s/27614#note-11

For other useful suggestions how to make tanks (and other vehicles) used by both AI and player more useful,
see this ticket and the related tickets: https://dev-heaven.net/issues/15293

Edited by .kju [PvPscene], 16 January 2012 - 19:00.



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Thread Starter
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#8

Posted 16 January 2012 - 20:56

Nice rant - except it is not nice but mostly rubbish.

1. The change has zero relation to the locking debate.
2. The reasons is the fix of this major bug finally: https://dev-heaven.net/issues/2353
3. Confirmed by the lead programmer himself: https://dev-heaven.n...es/27614#note-3
4. You can assign targets as group leader via radio (2-x) or the context sensitive command cursor
5. Yes there is still the bug of the AI gunner to ignore hold fire: https://dev-heaven.net/issues/27677

X. You could have posted your rant also in here: https://dev-heaven.net/issues/27614
or here: https://dev-heaven.n...es/2353#note-53

See also: https://dev-heaven.n...s/27614#note-11

For other useful suggestions how to make tanks (and other vehicles) used by both AI and player more useful,
see this ticket and the related tickets: https://dev-heaven.net/issues/15293



Voicing my opinions on large sweeping changes to how the game is played by a vast majority of players is rubbish eh?

I posted it here so we could get a broader community view of these changes. Most players do not visit Dev heaven. And as I also said, I did not know what ticket(s) have caused this change.

1. I can no longer switch to driver seat and use tactical view to "lock" targets. I would say that has plenty of relation to the locking issue.

2. I have never experienced that bug, and if that is what all these changes are caused by then it has caused more problems than solved.

3. Yeah and what else does he say? "I understand the change may be unpleasant for someone used to previous functionality, but I am not sure what options do we have" Such statement pretty much confirms that this kind of fix is far from perfect.

4. Firstly, using the command menu is unintuitive and really terrible alternative for assigning targets that no one would ever use in the heat of battle. Also, from the drivers position the context sensitive cursor does nothing. At least in my test with an M1.

5. Ok, good to hear. What about all the other commands like: No Target, Target That, Fire etc? None of these work from drivers seat now.

Please don't refer to this as a rant or call my opinions rubbish just because it opposes your view on how the game should be played KJU. I have a lot respect for you and I know you do a lot for our community. But I wont sit by while changes like this are implemented that break how a lot of people like to play the game. Or cause more frustration when trying to work with the Ai in vehicles.

As I said earlier I appreciate what you are trying to do but at the moment this change is messing the game when trying to use vehicles and AI... even more so than it already was.

Edited by -=seany=-, 16 January 2012 - 21:03.

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Guess Who
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#9

Posted 17 January 2012 - 07:04

I have to strongly disagree. I personally welcome every change/bugfix that strengthens the autonomy and skills of my AI team mates, and this is one of those. Maybe stop treating them as cannonfodder and start using their skills to your advantage; let them do their jobs and do yours. You'd be surprised how well they can handle.

This has nothing to do with PVP, COOP or SP play.

beagle
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#10

Posted 17 January 2012 - 07:29

I welcome every change zhats lessens the use of A.I. and tab as an exploit...and commanding an Tanks from driver seat via radar tab is an exploit...I can't believe it was ever meant that way since it was not that way in ArmA II. This exploitz allowed to fire at trargets that where not even rendered or that were obscured by smoke and terrain.

it way, way bette now since the all knowing driver-commander is gone.
And more autonomy by the crew and gunner is always welcome...before they just wiated to get killed by other tanks, deliberately firing MG on it.

tonci87
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#11

Posted 17 January 2012 - 09:45

I welcome every change zhats lessens the use of A.I. and tab as an exploit...and commanding an Tanks from driver seat via radar tab is an exploit...I can't believe it was ever meant that way since it was not that way in ArmA II. This exploitz allowed to fire at trargets that where not even rendered or that were obscured by smoke and terrain.

it way, way bette now since the all knowing driver-commander is gone.
And more autonomy by the crew and gunner is always welcome...before they just wiated to get killed by other tanks, deliberately firing MG on it.

^this
I understand why some people prefer to drive the Tank. Its fun and if you let the AI drive...well we all know what can happen if you let the AI drive. But the point is that you are not supposed to switch positions in a Tank. You have to decide what you want to be. If you still want to bypass this then include Teamswitch.
And on AI driving. Remember that Tanks need space, they are not designed to drive through dense forests or urban areas. so if you stay in appropriate terrain the AI shouldn´t have Problems driving the tank.
Posted Image Master of testing for a better Arma and well, for science.
Teach the AI how to drive. Teach AI Tank drivers to turn their front towards the enemy. Give us supression effects for AI . Make AI ragdoll if they get hit. Give us proper animations for throwing Frags. Give us a proper wounding system. Fix the armored vests so that they don´t protect the whole torso. More Civilian assets. Females. Weapon resting. Give us inertia influenced movement depending on the Weapon you have.

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#12

Posted 17 January 2012 - 10:14

1)
On the commander seat you can issue "cease fire" (LMB) or "hold fire" (quick command menu / radio (3-2))
And issue the targets one by one as commander (quick command menu / radio (2-x))

2)
Or let the gunner gunner pick and engage the targets himself

3)
Or in addition assign him as commander targets with highest priority (quick command menu / radio (2-x))


4)
On the commander seat you can select "manual fire" from the action menu to fire the main gun at your own discretion

5)
You can instantly switch between commander-gunner-driver via the action menu

6)
Again yes "hold fire" is buggy when switching to driver seat

---------- Post added at 11:14 ---------- Previous post was at 10:56 ----------

See also: AIGunnerToUseAllWeapons_AI_C_PvPscene



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DMarkwick
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#13

Posted 17 January 2012 - 10:42

I don't believe there is any bug at play here, it's just a facet of the non player-centric nature of ArmA2. The mission designer decides which unit is in command, and *whoever/whatever* controls that unit is in command. So if the player decides to switch units mid-mission, the AI that now controls the unit is in command, and hey presto makes different decisions to that of the player.

I guess that if you wish to switch positions and remain in control, you'd need to actually leave the vehicle, order the unit who you wish to switch to to leave the vehicle, climb into that unit's position, then order the unit back onto the vehicle.

I'd also guess that it wouldn't be too difficult to script in a procedure that allows the player to always remain in command no matter who he switches with, taking automatic command of any group he switches into. But even then, leave one group for another and the previous group will regain autonomy.
Feel like ArmA is letting you down in some way? Watch this:
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NoRailgunner
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#14

Posted 17 January 2012 - 11:27

Issue is imho more the communication and perception of AI and human player. Sad but many players use features that help to overcome certain AI issues and troubles as exploit/cheat. Don't know if its possible to make such features SP only or/and in MP less useful to exploit/cheat?

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#15

Posted 17 January 2012 - 12:18

The only annoying thing with these major changes is that you can't test betas while playing on vanilla server,because in most of cases it'll be disadvantaging.

Other than this,i think that AI issues concerning target prioritizing and detection should be fixed,since now we have to trust tank's gunner to choose what to shoot first :D.

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#16

Posted 17 January 2012 - 13:49

You don't. As commander you can assign him targets just like before.



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Thread Starter
-=seany=-
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#17

Posted 17 January 2012 - 16:19

And what if i want to switch to the drivers seat beacuse the AI is stuck or just generally sucks at driving, I'm supposed to give full control to the AI? wasting all my ammo, giving away my position etc?

You PVP/realism people really have blinkers on that are stopping you seeing the big picture, I don't understand why you have no empathy for the way others play the game? People who like coop are not constantly pushing for changes that mess up how you play the game are we?

If this is supposed to fix a bug ok, fix it. But at the moment this "bug fix" is actually making major changes to the way the game is played and it's mechanics.

PVP, answer me this: do you agree that you should be able to fully command AI in a tank by switching to the drivers position? You don't seem to want to mention this.

Seems to me you are trying to force your game play style on to everyone in the guise of a bug fix.

Have your bug fix..But do not alter my ability to command from the drivers position as I have done since OFP. This is not about exploits its about intuitive control, which this is breaking.

It's important for the Devs not to be overwhelmed by the noisy few on a forum who want the game to be changed to suit there play style. Bugs should be fixed but not at the cost of how a lot of people like to play the game.

PVPscene: you may have legitimate bugs that need fixing here, but look at some of your supporters posts here, their response is "great you have altered the game to make it play more like we want" not "thanks for fixing some bug". Are you trying to fix bugs or shape the game into your favoured style of play? To me it seems the latter.

DONT ruin the games' mechanics to fix problems with people exploiting in PVP multiplayer.

These "exploits" where added since OFP for a good reason, BECAUSE THE AI are a nightmare to control. The tools /"exploits" BIS gave us to work with the AI and minimize the frustration are great and work well. Until we get some supper AI that actually does what you want when you want, you are just devolving the game and making it more frustrating by adding these changes.

Try to play the BAF campaign with this new "fix". You will be pulling your hair out very soon.

And I'm not anti PVP game style. I think it would be great if you could get rid of some of the exploits to make it more fair etc...but not at the cost of how I like to play the game....We need an alternative....

I welcome every change zhats lessens the use of A.I. and tab as an exploit...and commanding an Tanks from driver seat via radar tab is an exploit...I can't believe it was ever meant that way since it was not that way in ArmA II. This exploitz allowed to fire at targets that where not even rendered or that were obscured by smoke and terrain.


This is what I mean ^ , Beagle doesn't care about the bug fix, he just cares that now an "exploit" has been removed and players are forced to play the game how he thinks it should be played. And Beagle; what about players who use these "exploits" to work with the AI in Coop and campaigns? Sod them yeah? Only your play style matters, is that it?

And it wasn't like that in ArmaII? Get your facts straight, it's been like that since OPERATION FLASHPOINT.

Edited by -=seany=-, 17 January 2012 - 16:33.

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#18

Posted 17 January 2012 - 16:28

@seany

I know what is your feeling ... but everyone will get used to this new system later.

It's like when BIS changed recoil system ... i think you rememeber how many discussions we had on that ;)

beagle
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#19

Posted 17 January 2012 - 16:38

And it wasn't like that in ArmaII? Get your facts straight, it's been like that since OPERATION FLASHPOINT.

actually NOT, Driver having a "tab" button lock radar was introduced in 1.50, before that a driver was not able to issie tageting commands. To veryfy just use ArmA II.exe Armed Assault.exe and OFP.exe.

The change is no issue since it affect all player and A.I....you cant do what they can't do and nobody was ever supposed to command a multicrew vehicle from driver seat. No issue at all since the benefits are even bigger like having working countermeasure to prevent "lock" now.

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#20

Posted 17 January 2012 - 16:44

actually NOT, Driver having a "tab" button lock radar was introduced in 1.50, before that a driver was not able to issie tageting commands. To veryfy just use ArmA II.exe Armed Assault.exe and OFP.exe.

The change is no issue since it affect all player and A.I....you cant do what they can't do and nobody was ever supposed to command a multicrew vehicle from driver seat.


sorry, but you are wrong.
You could always tab lock from the drivers seat since OFP.

And fine...remove Tab lock (I never use it in a tank anyway), but why does this also mean I can't Right click lock/assign targets, and fire, and set no target, and issue cease fire from drivers seat?

and nobody was ever supposed to command a multicrew vehicle from driver seat.

What? says who? This is just your warped personal opinion, are you saying BIS added it by mistake?...BIS allowed us to do this since OFP....Guess why..... TO HELP WITH THE AWKWARD AI..:rolleyes: Your doing this discussion no favours mate....
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