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Dwarden

Community driven Bug&Issue Tracker (CIT) for ARMA 2: Operation Arrowhead and ARMA 2

Are You going to use CIT ?  

247 members have voted

  1. 1. Are You going to use CIT ?

    • Yes - I would like help developers to easily find and fix my issue
      245
    • No - I'm not interested in helping developers
      8


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CIT_temp.png

i can't stress enough the importance of properly well written description in report

of problem, issue, incident, bug, crash or any other hick-up You have with our game(s)

not to mention all the files needed for complete reports are hosted as part of such report at same place

one of best ways to get things fixed is usage of public bug tracking system

so let me re-introduce CIT (Community Issue Tracker)

to understood how important role is played by such bug tracking solution

please see ROADMAP - future, present and history tracking here (each version vs reports)

http://dev-heaven.net/projects/cis/roadmap?tracker_ids%5B%5D=1&tracker_ids%5B%5D=2&tracker_ids%5B%5D=4&completed=1

url to create new ticket

http://dev-heaven.net/projects/cis/issues/new

34729469.jpg

detailed help

http://dev-heaven.net/projects/cis/wiki

which e.g. leads to instructions about crash files (where find them, how compress and upload and so on)

http://dev-heaven.net/projects/cis/wiki/Attachments

and best is this system is not useful just for bug tracking but can be used to track suggestions / wishes / feature requests from users / community

http://dev-heaven.net/projects/cis/issues?set_filter=1&tracker_id=2

sure it needs registration and email but that's little cost for chance get issue solved, obtain community help or even figure workaround till issue is resolved or else ...

NEW : OpenID login is supported (easier for lazier ones)

one of best ways how get things involved is take part (even just by reporting some glitch) ... :cool:

old thread

Edited by Dwarden

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Yes, USE THIS, PEOPLE! You can report bugs here but if you don't post them to the CIT along with crashdumps and/or report files, there's really nothing BIS can do about it.

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If you guys updated the TIC to be more user-friendly, I'm pretty sure lots of people would be happy to use it. But in its current state, it's not very user-friendly.

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I don't see how it's "user unfriendly". If you read the instructions on how to properly format a ticket, it's not difficult at all.

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If you guys updated the TIC to be more user-friendly, I'm pretty sure lots of people would be happy to use it. But in its current state, it's not very user-friendly.

what's not user friendly ?

all you need is register and fill report page and in worst case attach some files (crashdump related)

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Dwarden,

Will you guys still read the latest beta thread? The discussion in those threads can present information in a better format than the CIT in many circumstances.

For those that think the CIT is super easy to use. For a non-techie it is not simple to use compared to a forum. A forum is easy as pie to use. My Mom, at 67 years old is an avid gamer and Grandmother. She can post on a forum just fine. I have her system specs in a Word document she can copy and paste without knowing anything about her system. But looking at the CIT would be overwhelming for her. It would take her a year to fill out all the information required and chances are some of it would be wrong.

What is easy for a programmer or database manager is not easy for the average user. And it's a bit short-sighted to assume anyone who has a legitimate issue in ArmA2 is capable of navigating that system. I certainly will use it, but seeing how I know some people who would like to report issues and aren't very technical should not be shut out or overlooked. Otherwise you might as well just shut the tech sections of the "forum" down.

---------- Post added at 01:42 AM ---------- Previous post was at 01:29 AM ----------

I really hope no one takes offense at my post. Also - Dwarden, I forgot to get those Anistropic screenshots to you. Sorry about that. I'm trying to find a good place to demonstrate it.

-Jeff

Edited by jpinard

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Look, what makes more sense?

  • A developer spending most of his time in a forum, trying to extrapolate information and issues intertwined in complaints, opinions and various nonsense. And there is a lot of nonsense. (you have seen this in person)
  • A developer goes to a bug tracker, to fix a bug which has clear and direct repro steps. He now has more time to address other bugs. If more information is needed, it is simple to ask and track the status all on a single ticket dedicated to the issue, not 15 scattered forum threads.

There are helpful people around like Dwarden that end up filling the 'in-between' of getting issues from the forums to the CIT, when they exist.

In most cases, the CIT is a professionally-maintained (by volunteers like kju) place where bugs go to get fixed with the least amount of drama, wasted time, etc. There isn't a 'change in policy' that you are reading into here, Dwarden is just reminding everyone that the CIT is where most bugs get fixed, and that is how it has been for many, many months now.

The forum is a waste of time that can be better spent on the issues themselves. Contrary to your argument, it is not hard to fill out a bug report, many examples are given. (please see this simple page: http://dev-heaven.net/projects/cis/wiki) Forum is okay for chatting, opinions, etc. But not ideal for development issues. It's a clear matter of efficiency and accuracy. CIT tickets usually don't have trolls, complaining, scattered topics, etc.

Sure you can use the forum because it's easy and you wouldn't like to learn something new right now. But that isn't usually how work gets done. This is indeed work for them, and if you were working, I trust you would expect some kind of standards in your working environment. ;) Try to think of it from their perspective please. Posting issues to the forum actually does them a small disservice, as now you've required someone else to grok your issue and make a proper CIT ticket of it anyways, and it may not be how you originally described due to a misunderstanding.. and it's missing repro missions, etc.

Also: Not everyone is suited to be a QA Tester and bug reporter. It takes work, and you don't get paid. And it isn't expected either, nobody is forcing anyone to run the betas. They are for testing, feedback and bug reporting of the game engine on a larger pool of testers. But if you wish to use it and not report bugs, that's okay too. But don't force the simplistic requirements on those that want to do the work, nor should you feel wronged by the developers for wanting to use an efficient system for their ongoing development. (sounds a bit selfish, or self centered, no?) If you do report bugs, it is expected they conform to some very simple requirements, it isn't huge deal like it's been made out to be here.

I doubt that the devs will stop reading occasional forum posts. When the CIT started, they didn't, why would they now? But if they did, I honestly wouldn't blame them one bit. (we already discussed why in PM)

And remember, since the CIT was created, various people have filled the gap between the CIT and those on the forums that are unable/unwilling to take the time to make tickets.

Cheers

PS: Be sure to make the distinction between the Bug/Feature tracker and 'troubleshooting', they are not the same. The CIT deals with things that are wrong with the game that affect everyone in most cases, whereas the troubleshooting forum can be user-related configuration issues, users helping users, etc. Real bugs are normally very complicated, and require a lot of data for the developer to reproduce. If a person has not been a QA tester before, they have to learn a bit to become one. It isn't as simple as reporting a problem in a forum post, it is almost never that simple. And the forum gives people a 'false hope' of their problem being recified, since so many people are posting about xyz issue, but it is not organized and there is usually missing information the dev's require to rectify the issue quickly. This is another reason for the dedicated bug testers that adhere to the requirements and post clear issues with the required information, without back and forth requests between people that are not acclimated to QA testing or game development. Try to imagine a person quality checking your work at whatever your day to day profession is, I assume you would want him to at least know what your job entails before he goes telling you how you're doing it wrong, right?

Edited by oktane
highlighting

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yes i read such forum threads and hunt bugs,glitches,issues crashes and reports from deep corners of internet ...

---------- Post added at 10:26 ---------- Previous post was at 10:07 ----------

i added screenshot of the simple screen, if this is complex to fill then i really don't know

not to mention you don't need even fill all :)

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The thing is, the web site there is a mess. It needs to be more organized. The links at the top are no help. It doesn't tell you where to submit a bug. It lists "Overall Issues" when it should be something like "Submit and Track Issues" . It's not the form that is un-friendly, it's the web site itself. I'd be happy to whip up an example web site that would be more user-friendly.

Edited by Nicholas

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It has a tab that says "New Issue" with a little green plus next to it. I admit there should be a separate "button" for this but overall I think people are making this out to sound way more complicated than it actually is.

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The thing is, the web site there is a mess. It needs to be more organized. The links at the top are no help. It doesn't tell you where to submit a bug. It lists "Overall Issues" when it should be something like "Submit and Track Issues" . It's not the form that is un-friendly, it's the web site itself. I'd be happy to whip up an example web site that would be more user-friendly.

you self asking too much questions and demands too many options and changes :)

yet you talk about site being mess ?

create acccount, login and write up report and push 'create'

wait for survival of the fittest (reports) ...

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Oktane - I totally agree with you that their limited time is better spent in the CIT. It organizes the data better and gives them all they key information. It's a really nice tool. In fact - I will try and spend more time on the forum helping people with tech questions so BIS can focus on the CIT and not forums. I just thought it was important to offer a counter-argument.

Also, when it comes to the importance/priority of issues comes up, I don't think it should be soley based on "who gets the most votes" on CIT. As there will be a lot of people who will not search the CIT nor use it because it looks intimidating.

BTW - is there a way to save your system information in the CIT so we don't have to input it every single time?

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you self asking too much questions and demands too many options and changes :)

yet you talk about site being mess ?

create acccount, login and write up report and push 'create'

wait for survival of the fittest (reports) ...

Well I'm sorry. I was only making a suggestion. I wasn't making any demands, only suggesting that if you want more users to use it, it should be more user-friendly.

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well it will be useful if you mention how to make (where, what, why) it simpler / easier to use ...

such approach is always welcome

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Argument for the sake of argument? SNR seems to be falling rapidly.. defending some unidentified group of people suffering as a result of the CIT's existence? What seems more obvious to me is apprehension towards anything that inconveniences you in the least. (see spoiler)

BTW - is there a way to save your system information in the CIT so we don't have to input it every single time?

No, there isn't that I know of. The information changes regularly anyways. (people get new hardware, upgrade OS, etc) Your browser has the capability to save the information in the text fields too.

Those fields are irrelevant to most bugs anyways. For example, the 'GFX card type/Driver' data would be relevant to a bug about GFX stuff: LOD swapping, running out of VRAM, alt-tabbing issues, or crashes. But it isn't useful for a bug about a scripting command not working, being able to hear 'dry fire' noises across the battlefield, or the Mi24's air-ground anti-tank missile not hitting targets properly. So include them if you are unsure, but they don't have to be there if they aren't useful.

Seriously though,

you shouldn't need to be entering in bugs so rapid-fire that it becomes an annoyance to select a handful of drop-down boxes! As I mentioned, reporting bugs is work, if you want to do a good job. Because you're continuing down this path, I still think you are missing the intention of the CIT. Writing up a bug should take a little bit of your time. The CIT is not meant to be a forum and therefore lacks 'streamlined' posting workflows like you desire.

If any of you have complaints about the CIT, the required data, the workflow, then I'm sorry but you're entirely missing the point. The bug tracker software (redmine) is used across the world, it's a fairly standard open-source system for reporting bugs. If you got a job doing QA work, there's a good chance you'd see the same thing. If you look at this and say, 'why the hell would anyone use this site', you have a few options:

  • You can be receptive, respectful and open-minded, and get involved with the CIT after lurking a bit, learning about QA testing in the process. Make good use of the technical skills that you've accumulated while modding & creating missions for OFP/ArmA to help the developers and community improve the game for the benefit of all. You can learn a lot from the people that run it. But you'll have to drop all tendencies of negativity at the door. If there is a problem, take the initiative and attempt to fix it yourself first.
  • You can take it at face value, maybe it's not up your alley. You can ignore the potential to learn new things or improve the game. Most importantly, you may not be interested in learning these things, and that's okay. Prehaps you aren't very technical, or you just want to play the game. What is annoying is folks complaining about the CIT when they haven't even used it or understand what it's for. The same goes for suggesting changes to it.

There are volunteers that run it, you're welcome to suggest things to them directly. They don't read these forums, so if you wish to talk about it, you'll have to make an effort and seek them out.

The CIT is not owed to you, it is not funded by any part of the money you spent on the game. So be nice and have some respect for the people that run and manage it, they don't get paid a dime. And before you complain about this or that, try first giving them the benefit of the doubt. (they know what they are doing, and they work closely with BIS) Besides, you can complain all you want, nobody that is involved in it is actually listening here, they all got burned out on these forums long ago, due to exactly these issues.

Remember, nobody is forcing you to report bugs, use the CIT, or use the beta. If you don't understand it or you think it's stupid the way it's done, it's okay, don't post bugs. There are plenty of people that have no problem with it. If you think you have unique bug, it's simple to contact someone more familiar with the CIT to post it up for you instead.

There's a lot of hot air on these forums. Complaining, requests, endless suggestions and demands, etc. However, the hot air does not ever get anything done as you can see, plus it just ends up creating more hot air. It's ultimately wasted time. You can be a part of the solution, be indifferent and not care, or a be part of the problem. Only the first option has a positive end result attributed directly to you. DH/CIT is a solution, a community of people that try to solve problems and create new things with a distinct lack of hot air and runaway internet-entitlement that plagues other places.

Those that are up to it, I looking forward to seeing your work in the future!

(note: I have to say that this is all my opinion, it does not represent any official response from BIS or DH staff. (duh) I am just a bug reporter like most people that use DH, but I did a game QA testing job a few years so I am familiar with it.)

Phantom (oops, I meant) Dice, if you have an interest, your desire for improvement is welcomed. You can join us at the DH google wave discussions, your technical skills can be used if you wish to volunteer. Sickboy would be the person to address. We could use some help on the 'dynamic class browser' css and js.

Edited by oktane

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Argument for the sake of argument? SNR seems to be falling rapidly.. defending some unidentified group of people suffering as a result of the CIT's existence? What seems more obvious to me is apprehension towards anything that inconveniences you in the least. (see spoiler)

OKTANE... CHILL OUT! I said my little blurb and I let it go, I'm making use of the CIT, I like it, and I will hand-hold anyone else that has something of true value to contribute. You're going to have an aneurysm if this stuff keeps riling you up so bad. Also, with a bunch of new people bringing in fresh new money to BIS you should be happy to see the SNR spike. It'll go back down as people learn the game, bugs get resolved, and those that don't want to put them time into a tech forum leave. But for the love of God understand and be happy that there's any noise at all! Otherwise BIS would be up shit creek with a lack of sales.

I love what you do here Oktane, I really do - and it pains me to see you so upset over newbies.

Edited by jpinard

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Hey I apologize for being so verbose, it's just the way I express myself, a force of habit from teaching complex tech stuff, I try to explain the same thing 30 different ways until even I am confused. It gets worse with more beers.

But don't interpret my verbosity as annoyance, or disrespect. The two places (BIF/DH) serve separate purposes, and they both must exist for either to prosper. I am just explaining why DH/CIT cannot become the next BI Forums, and why certain elements that occur here frequently are not welcome or tolerated there. And don't construe it as elitism, it's really open to all who want to apply some effort to what they'd like to do and get involved.

Wishy-washy nonsense:

I write only because I care, some days more, others not at all. Ultimately, the goal should always be clear, to improve a complex game that seems to bring people together(to rely on one another), keeping it fresh and fun to play. (and even fun to develop for) But at times the idea is obscured by the day to day communication difficulties between the multitude of groups and places they gather. The grim meat-hook realities that lie in wait for those that try to instill a sense of purpose and direction among casual players & modders(or anyone on the intertubes) are quite great in number.. and in the end their failure is ours. But WGL, FFA, BAS, BW, ECP, COC, FFUR, ACE, and others all show that when the right people come together, something great can come of it. I believe the same applies to even something as simple as the CIT, and over time it has shown to be true, improving the game in leaps and bounds. But it's hard to get people to see the good side of things, there is always more tendency to express their problems.

Cheers

:cheers:

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imagine forums like BIForums

as club where you come to chatter with friends on bar drinking some drink

now imagine bug tracking system like CIT

as repair shop where you bring item with problem and they will try analyse it and fix it

hopefully this help to 'differ' the two enough

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That's an awesome analogy Dwarden. Oktane, sorry my post was a little harsh. I worry a bit on how flustered people can get with newbies, and being one of those people I can still see why simple things can be overwelming... when it's unfamiliar. Once you get used to it you wonder how it could have ever seemed difficult. :)

That said, I'm surprised no wise-cracker has voted "no". LOL :p There's always one.

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Ok I sent one in.This is happening to me on even regular Arma 2 without OA now.Seems something went weird after patch to 1.07.CTD's after 2-5 min of play.

Edited by WarriorM4

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Dwarden, are there resources for users to sanity check their environment before submitting bug reports that are very likely not bugs at all? You ask for people to submit everything like crashes and such, but doesn't that produce a ton of tickets that are user configuration or user enviroment issues and not bugs?

For example, if after patching the game, a user has crashes but there aren't reports of that 'en masse', and the user does not provide repro steps or much detailed info, what is the workflow for something like that? Does it go to BIS for someone to load up into the debugger and report back what the fault was, providing a kind of tech support? To rephrase, does that fall into the scope that the CIT serves?

I am asking this because if the above situation is acceptable and desired by BIS, providing tools and guides for users to sanity check their environment may help alleviate the creation of such tickets that are user issues rather than game bugs. I often help troubleshoot peoples game issues, I have found that MD5's are very useful for determining if a users game data is corrupted. When the game is corrupted, all kinds of issues can arise, the most common of which is frequent crashing. (when the game goes to load an asset which is corrupted, poof) Also, in the above example case, the user could have had an error while patching that wasn't reported because he didn't see it or think to include it..(dunno, major lack of detail there) any number of things could have happened really but still likely not a game bug and isn't being reported to other users.

Any consideration for a similar yet separate CIT system specifically for tech support, such as community helping community, rewarded with rep points or something, like experts exchange or yahoo answers, to reduce the amount of non-bug dumps going in BIS's direction? (BIS could still get involved for tough ones, or if enough people are having the same issue(as in a game bug), a staffer would forward the ticket to the original CIT)

In a perfect world, the game should never crash, even if presented with garbled input.. But that is never going to be the case, and I've never seen a complicated application capable of doing that. The error checking and handling code would equal or outnumber the actual app code!

Just curious,

Cheers

(also sorry to you Warrior for using your ticket as an example, don't take offense :) )

Edited by oktane

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Hi, i've observed may "issues" that i would call bugs, in the ArmA2, they're there too after patch the game to the 1.07; mainly things like missing parts on LODs (i.e: the M1911 front sight = not pressent.) or shadows bugs on the units (i.e: USMC officer's cap don't haves shadow), this model don't have chest pockets on his jacket and neither on his sleeves. And are some more like this, i've also issues with the keys not responding in game and i've a "small issue" with the OA single (training) missions as i don't have an specific key to crouch, so i can't pass the 1St stage = closed access to OA's armoury. This kind of things that don't make CTDs or entire break the game... are issues that report in the CTI? or we should do it here, in the forums instead?. Let's C ya

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