Sign in to follow this  
Followers 0
Zedrein

Military SciFi Projects Thread

379 posts in this topic

Listen, I have no problem with "Mech" addons/mods. I love the Stargate mod, and all the SciFi addons that have been released, hell I love every addon that's released. That's not the issue here. The issue is that the thread starter believes that Bohemia Interactive needs to tailor their MilSim "Game" to Mech fans. That's the part that pisses me off.

Yes, "Good Riddance" to him, if he's not gonna buy another BIS game, just because they didn't tailor it to mech fans.

If you cannot understand this reasoning, then open up the 1st spoiler, and take the blue pill.

If you can, open up the 2nd spoiler, and take the red pill. :cool:

Blue:

Red:

But all he was asking for is a better animation system - which is not an unreasonable request, sure he was asking for it in the context of mech mods, but that was only as an outcome of it that he'd find desirable

I think you need to go take your own advice, mate.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
if its not easier to add mechs in OA then thats my LAST BI game.

This is why I posted my initial response. He SPECIFICALLY said, that if it's not easier to add mechs, he won't buy any more BI games. That is why I said "Good Riddance".

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Simple answer: Yes.

Long answer: In theory, the animation system allows this. I've done it myself with the model config structure, which is quite flexible. The hurdle is scripting, which is also the theoretical part. You have to be able to animate the parts as necessary with a script, as using the model config alone is too clunky.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Simple answer: Yes.

Long answer: In theory, the animation system allows this. I've done it myself with the model config structure, which is quite flexible. The hurdle is scripting, which is also the theoretical part. You have to be able to animate the parts as necessary with a script, as using the model config alone is too clunky.

Hey I was able to get a gatling rotating with the old OFP-Gatling-script.

( type = rotation; etc.)

Do you know if the same works for the .cfg files used for the Mechs in OFP? I know its "clunky", but it for me it would suffice.

Can I extract the neccessary information from them? Or has something changed?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Hey I was able to get a gatling rotating with the old OFP-Gatling-script.

( type = rotation; etc.)

Do you know if the same works for the .cfg files used for the Mechs in OFP? I know its "clunky", but it for me it would suffice.

Can I extract the neccessary information from them? Or has something changed?

Everything has changed from FP; you'd have to make a model.cfg from scratch and redefine the selections on the model.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

to the guy that says i am demanding BI to take time and change this one thing.. thats BS i am wondering why they cant atleast piddle with helping sci-fi modders out sometime over the last 10 years. get over yourself. i changed this threads title as asked. i am all up for helping anyone with modeling on a sci-fi mod/addon

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
The creative "Esprit" of the community is defintly not as great as it was during "Operation Flashpoint"-times. Now all we have is retexture after rextexture, and efforts to make the combat-boots of the Lituwajnian Special Forces even more realistic.

I know ArmA is supposed to be a realistic combat simulator not a SciFi game, but OFP was also so great because you could implement SciFi-stuff and then play it in a realistic environment. I miss the old days where it was much more fun to search ofp.gamepark.cz and be suprised with what the community came up this time.

This just hurts. Some geek is afraid his hyer-realism-game gets some fun additon he cant relate to. :rolleyes:

That is, or was, the great thing about the OFP series! There are only addons, that ADD something to the game, nothing gets "turned" and changed forever.

Oh god I rember the joy when Red Baron realesed his first car with openable trunk and engine compartment, or the Mech-Addon that could raise his arms and fly....Or the excellent Robotech-fighter from ArmA I...This innovation wouldnt have been possible with winers like Darkhorse.

Definitely agree here, I love the realism, but like you say it's also fun to play around with stupid/sci-fi etc stuff in a realistic environment too :)

I want 40K: the milsim! :D

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

yeah a WH40k sim would be sick. but what i want to do with the mod im talking about having mechs is take what Armr2oa has now. replace the infantry ect with more of a sci-fi style. throw in some si-fi vehicles and wep and add some mechs. large humanoid mechs and maybe some MW "chicken leg" mechs. i really liked the scale and size of those Wanzers from OFP. and i'll take any help i can get.

here are a couple pics of some of my old mechs. gives you and idea.

http://i38.photobucket.com/albums/e134/SteelKiller01/AK-02HavokFinalversion.png

http://i38.photobucket.com/albums/e134/SteelKiller01/Tankmechsizerender.png

http://i38.photobucket.com/albums/e134/SteelKiller01/ThroneMechV-5posecannon.png

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I want 40K: the milsim! :D

I was with the WH40K Mod für Operation Flashpoint for some time, also released some crappy addons for them. They are still active, and do an awesome job with the "Old Lady OFP". Check them out at http://s1.zetaboards.com/OFPWH40K/index/

i changed this threads title as asked.

Didnt seem to have worked :confused:

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

yeah i changed the threads title but its not showing up. i might not be doing it right can someone tell me how? i need to name it " Military SciFi Projects "

BTW i am sorry that i said i would never buy another BI game. i was a lil upset and should not have said that. i will always buy any BI game like i have always done. they cater to modders more then any other game team that i know of.

Edited by Zedrein

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I must say, this thread could be THE spot for creativity to flower. After all, EVENTUALLY you do get bored shooting terrorists in the face with shotguns. It would be much more fun to shoot Stormtroopers in the face with a weapon on a mech from Mech Assault. Now THAT would take a very, very, very, very, very long time to get bored of :D:D:D:D:D

Edited by Blueteamguy

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

To be fair to Bohemia Interactive, mecha are not exactly realistic options in the world of warfare:

WARNING: Extremely long spoiler follows.

Probing The Inaccuracies: Mecha

a.k.a. "Mecha: Overweight, Unstable, Awkward, Militarily Pointless"

There's something about a gigantic bipedal robot that inspires the imagination. Whether it's the return to personal, one-on-one combat that many mecha-related series seem to explore, or the idea of a huge humanoid machine kicking ass, it's pretty easy to see the appeal of mecha. It's also difficult to dispute that they are, in fact, rather awesome.

Unfortunately, they are also completely pointless.

The first question that needs to be asked is, “What exactly is a mecha good for?†Putting aside clearly improbable designs that can freely fly, as found in the Super Robot genre, it would seem that the mecha would be designed as an analogue to the tank – or alternately, to displace the tank completely. This, to me, seems rather improbable, as the limitations of any of the common designs of mecha – bipedal, tripodal, quadrupedal or spider-shape – far outweigh any advantages conferred upon the machine by that design.

To investigate why this is so, we must examine the general form of the mecha in order to determine its typical characteristics.

vincent.png

The Vincent from Code Geass, a series which I feel gets things very, very wrong.

The first, and probably foremost, problem with this design, which appears to be representative of most mecha designs, is its high centre of gravity combined with only two points of contact with the ground. As anybody who has been pushed over before they have a chance to brace themselves will know, this leads to a considerable amount of instability. As mecha would require an improbable amount of flexibility and speed of movement in order to brace themselves after an impact, this would lead to the design being very easy to topple over, and thus incapable of taking any sort of impact without being rendered immobile and therefore useless.

Of course, an actual mecha design would be fitted with gyroscopes in order to prevent it from falling over when it so much as moved on any sort of surface that wasn't completely flat, but there's only so far that one can go with gyroscopic stabilisation, and of course, gyroscopes add weight to the machine. It really outlines the disadvantages of bipedal movement in anything that isn't biological, humans only being capable of doing it efficiently due to their locking kneecaps and the ability to unconsciously maintain their balance with tiny, almost imperceptible movements.

It isn't just bipedal mecha which suffer from stability problems and a high centre of gravity. Designs with more than two legs may have a more stable base, which largely negates the need for heavy and cumbersome gyroscopes, but they can be just as easily knocked over with a large enough impact. Once a leg is restrained or destroyed, instant stability problems occur, with the machine being rendered instantly immobile, and most likely falling over because of their inability to redistribute their weight unlike a biological organism. The vulnerability of the legs of these machines means that they are rendered vulnerable to tanks, close-air-support aircraft and even men with portable missile launchers. As it is difficult to distribute armour to the legs of mecha without making their movement cumbersome, it would appear that mecha would be limited immediately by the weakness of their legs.

atat-model.jpg

The AT-AT from Star Wars, a series which may not have been realistic, but which outlined the ease of knocking a big mech over.

This isn't the only weakness of a design based on legs. Leg movement is a form of reciprocating movement, where a piece of machinery repeats a back-and-forth (or up-and-down) movement. While this has proven to be the only successful form of ground movement in animals, reciprocating motion is not considered to be desirable for machinery which is used for propulsion. In engine design, a reciprocating engine requires far more components and usually wears out more quickly than an engine utilising circular motion, and attempts at replacing the piston engine in cars, planes and ships have been common ever since the development of the electric engine and gas turbine.

The gas turbine has displaced the reciprocating engine in all but the smallest aeroplanes since the 1960s, either in the form of the turboprop or the jet engine, while larger ships commonly use turbine engines in order to propel them instead of more complicated, more difficult-to-maintain piston engines. Only in cars and motorcycles has the piston engine persisted; the superior fuel consumption of such engines at that size compared to gas turbines and Wankel engines has allowed them to carve out that niche. However, electric engines utilise circular motion, and with the development of improving battery technology and hydrogen fuel cells, the piston engine will likely be displaced in this market as well.

This has relevance to mecha, because even piston engines convert their reciprocating motion to circular motion at the crank. If one were to directly connect the mech's legs to the engine, one would either be converting circular motion to reciprocating motion, if a gas turbine or some sort of electric engine were used, or reciprocating motion to circular motion back to reciprocating motion if a piston engine were used. I hope you can see why that would cause apoplexy in many engineers; you'd essentially be transmitting power through another set of complex components, which adds more places for an already complicated machine to fail. If that doesn't drive the engineers crazy, then it would definitely drive the mechanics that would have to work on it to drink.

It's unlikely that a direct mechanical linkage to the engine would be used, for not only the reasons outlined above, but also because it would limit the flexibility of the limbs and leave them essentially as simple, crude metal struts. A far more likely system to be used is a hydraulic system, similar to the digging implements found on bulldozers. This would allow for movement of the legs more closely related to the movement of human legs, but would still be considerably less efficient than the movement of actual human legs. As discussed above, the locking kneecaps and ability to quickly change one's balance lead to efficient bipedal movement in humans, but what would distinguish us from mecha capable of doing the same thing is that human muscles work on the microscopic scale, with nanoscale particles involved in the molecular biochemical activation of muscles. Ultimately, this scale allows humans and other animals to have impressive strength for their size, using a lot less energy than a comparative hydraulic system would use.

MW4_Cauldron_Born.jpg

The Cauldron Born from the BattleTech series, a series which at least does things a little better than most mecha series. A little.

Returning to the general form of the mecha, apart from the disadvantages conferred by the instability of such a top-heavy design, the height of such machines leads to another obvious disadvantage: It leads to them being very noticeable. For something that purports to be an analogue to the tank, that is rather a significant weakness. Some people seem to forget that tanks are hardly invulnerable themselves; their tracks are potential targets to even outdated anti-tank launchers, while tank-on-tank combat can lead to the destruction of one of the tanks with just one lucky shot. As such, tanks attempt to decrease their profile and the amount of area to target by running hull-down, using terrain to disguise and cover themselves. This is not a luxury afforded to mecha.

The weaknesses of mecha versus tanks continues with mobility. By virtue of independent driving of both tracks, a tank can turn on its axis, while this is difficult, if not impossible for mecha to do. In order to turn the legs of a mech, one requires a complex series of components which far outstrip the complexity of comparative tank steering systems. As with the difficulties posed with reciprocating motion, these complex systems are useless for anything except making engineers and mechanics very angry.

Even then, the movement will be awkward, which would be especially dangerous in urban combat. Tanks are hardly the most appropriate weapon system in that sort of warfare either, to be fair; they are particularly vulnerable to improvised explosive devices and anti-tank launchers fired by people concealed in buildings, but mecha are even worse in these environments, with problems pursuing or retreating, which is rather problematic.

Just when you thought that there couldn't be any more mechanical problems with mecha, physics comes and bites the idea in the arse again. Mecha are typically very large machines, and with increasing size comes an interesting correlation. For every squaring of surface area of an object, its mass goes up by the cube of the original object's mass. While a human male may be on average 70kg, when that same humanoid shape is scaled up to several times that of a human, the mass increases correspondingly, such that mecha end up extremely heavy. A small increase in the height of a mech can necessitate the use of far more powerful servo systems and hydraulics, which is expensive not only in energy but also in cost.

The excessive weight of these machines can cause problems in other ways as well. A heavy machine resting on supports with limited surface area in contact with the ground leads to high pressure underneath. Tanks require wide tracks in order to prevent themselves from sinking into soft ground, but unless a mech had ridiculously wide feet, it would be likely to get stuck very easily in anything softer than concrete or baked soil, and to break up roads in urban terrain. Not particularly useful when you already have mobility problems.

I agree that the game could use a few not-so-serious addons to really test the limits of the engine, but considering the target market for the game and the genre which ARMA 2 sits in, unrealistic touches like mecha are never going to be a big priority. If you're willing to work on all of the necessary touches to make a mecha addon, go ahead and good luck with it.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Well if we devide the "Mechs" into three classes:

2-3m high, Typ "Powered Armor"

3-5m high, Typ "Small Walker", like in the Movie "Avatar".

~18m high, Typ "Classical Mech"

...Then of course the 18m version is out of the question as a military vehicle. Way to big, not enough armor, maintenance a nightmare etc. etc.

The "Powered Armor" on the other hand is already developed today. This will definitly appear on the battlefield. (Sarcos XOS, HULC etc.)

But ok, its not ecactly a Mech. However there are serious advances towards an "Small Walker" type of mech, after the terrorist chase in the mountains of Afghanisten proved to be such a pain in the ass. About 3m highs, it could still use the terrain for cover, and be used against infantry. But as well, not possible with todays fuel systems.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

It is possible for addon makers to add mechs to the game, but I sure don't want them to be in vanilla OA or ArmA. I would probably download a mech addon if there was one.

I remember some of the good old addons of OFP that were so fun to just mess around with. Not everyone was about total realism back then. Anyone remember the awesome Dragonflies? Or the hot air ballon, or the Leonardo Da Vinci Air Screw. There were some awesome addons back then, but now days people only make what is "realistic".

Here is a pic of the dragon flies. I couldn't find a larger image cause the website is no longer being updated, but it still hosts a lot of OFP addons.

2vv1h88.png

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
It is possible for addon makers to add mechs to the game, but I sure don't want them to be in vanilla OA or ArmA. I would probably download a mech addon if there was one.

I remember some of the good old addons of OFP that were so fun to just mess around with. Not everyone was about total realism back then. Anyone remember the awesome Dragonflies? Or the hot air ballon, or the Leonardo Da Vinci Air Screw. There were some awesome addons back then, but now days people only make what is "realistic".

Here is a pic of the dragon flies. I couldn't find a larger image cause the website is no longer being updated, but it still hosts a lot of OFP addons.

2vv1h88.png

It would be cool if BIS would release some sort of Patch / Tool that would make texturing in O2 easier. Not extremly advanced stuff, but enough to produce decent looking addons.

It think the texturing is the biggest problem nowadays. A skilled modeler can create a nice model in O2 or 3DSMax exactly the same way as back in the OFP days.

But no matter how skilled he is, it will still look like shit im Armed Assault II if the textures arent perfect.

Check out the "Bundeswehr Mod" for ArmAII, the "BWMod" team was and is one of the most skilled teams around. Their OFP stuff was nothing short of stunning and miles away from what BIS produced.

But despite all that now in ArmAII their vehicles looks slightly less nice than the vanilla BIS tanks. So its not enough that you are an excellent modeller or texture artist, you also have to extremly well versed with texture making in ArmAII, and even the best teams have their problems with that.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

It would be sweet to have an Elemental from Battletech in the game. They were only about 5m tall, and pretty much had infantry style weapons. The animations shouldn't be too difficult and configs for weapons already in game could be used to arm it.

Might be a good place to start because the model wouldn't be that difficult due to its size. And if a Jumping script could be made and done well it would be a really fun and tactically useful addon, albeit unreal.

http://www.mektek.net/forums/gallery/1/gallery_6935_1_10857.jpg

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

i am lovin this thread lol i would change the title like asked but i do not know how. keep the ideas going guys. and yeah it would be nice to have a power armor like the elemental in a mech addon.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
i would change the title like asked but i do not know how.

You have to ask a mod. ;)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

sweet! thanks man for changing it. im working on a new mech model atm ill post some pics soon.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Let's see here...

You buy a modern realistic combat simulator game...

For which the great majority of mods are simply representations of real-world forces...

Expect, as a given right, for there to be support for anime-style warmechs in this game...

Despite your opinion being one of a tiny, miniscule minority in the game's playerbase...

And then state, when you discover that the expansion pack does not make modding said warmechs easier, that you will never buy another of the company's games?

I think you're expecting a little much mate. Just chill, enjoy the games for what they are, and if somebody makes a mech mod, woohoo.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Let's see here...

You buy a modern realistic combat simulator game...

For which the great majority of mods are simply representations of real-world forces...

Expect, as a given right, for there to be support for anime-style warmechs in this game...

Despite your opinion being one of a tiny, miniscule minority in the game's playerbase...

And then state, when you discover that the expansion pack does not make modding said warmechs easier, that you will never buy another of the company's games?

I think you're expecting a little much mate. Just chill, enjoy the games for what they are, and if somebody makes a mech mod, woohoo.

I think that point was addressed in detail allready, please don't try to spin up the windmill again. But yep, Zedrein could update his first post to stop further derailing.

Also see:

yeah i changed the threads title but its not showing up. i might not be doing it right can someone tell me how? i need to name it " Military SciFi Projects "

BTW i am sorry that i said i would never buy another BI game. i was a lil upset and should not have said that. i will always buy any BI game like i have always done. they cater to modders more then any other game team that i know of.

Edited by Icewindo

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

yeah i removed it. i cant believe the way some of you are acting over my post. its pretty much childish fanboy behavior. @Bronze were you looking for a ship model to use? if so i have one a friend made and i can get permission for you to use it. here is a pic of it.

431843.jpg

Edited by Zedrein

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Roger Johnson and Zedrein are easily my favorite people in the community, right now. :)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Hehe ^^ well, about my idea of mechs. some would require walking animations which i know is hard and Roger Johnson is working on it with his Zaku and Gundam. but i also plan on having mechs that dont necessarily "walk" all the time or at all. and this may be easier to add then walking. what i am talking about are mechs that hover and boost from place to place but when they stop they land on the ground until they move again which they will hover then boost off. would this be easier to do then making them All walk?

BTW a Huge Thank you to you all that are being positive and helping ^^

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Please sign in to comment

You will be able to leave a comment after signing in



Sign In Now
Sign in to follow this  
Followers 0