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USA Politics Thread - *No gun debate*

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With all due respect back. Please take a look here.

http://ae911truth.org/

I've seen it before. They have a nice website, but they represent a small minority position among the greater scientific community, and all of their claims have already been debunked. Your willingness to believe this pseudoscience is a perfect example of the confirmation bias to which the comic I linked earlier was referring.

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What if the majority of people like things the way they are? If so, by what consent do you destroy those people and businesses, yours alone? That is what is selfish and immature, you act without any justification. This shows just how corrupt your thought processes are. This is why they are looking to monitor the web, extremists acting purely in their own self interest and without any regard to law, democracy or the common good. It will cost the UK 2Billion to set this up, something I will share my part in paying purely because of a tiny minority who don't have the skills or patience to work within society.

Thing is, a lot of people did put a cross on a piece of paper, do their rights and point of view not count in Walker world? You can campaign, fight and scream all you like, you will never change the world to suit yourself.

Sorry to be so truthfull, but you are acting stupid. Seriously

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What if the majority of people like things the way they are? . . .

That's why we have ongoing protest all over the world . . . because people like things the way they are.

You are definitely intelligent but at the same time so naive. No offence intended.

cheers

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Sorry to be so truthfull, but you are acting stupid. Seriously

It's a valid point Tonci, if the majority of the people in the UK don't share Walker's outlook, who is he to change the UK to suit himself? If it were me I would have to have some justification before I acted in that manner. Only dictators govern without consent.

---------- Post added at 09:06 PM ---------- Previous post was at 09:05 PM ----------

That's why we have ongoing protest all over the world . . . because people like things the way they are.

You are definitely intelligent but at the same time so naive. No offence intended.

cheers

Yes but how can it be right for a tiny minority to impose their wishes on the majority? And attempt to do so without obtaining any form of consent or democratic justification?

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I've seen it before. They have a nice website, but they represent a small minority position among the greater scientific community, and all of their claims have already been debunked. Your willingness to believe this pseudoscience is a perfect example of the confirmation bias to which the comic I linked earlier was referring.

it's not about the nice website . . . in any case. Are you willing to point me in some direction where I can read something about the debunking of the theories of ae911 truth? Everything I've read (seen) so far debunking the ae911 truth hasn't convinced me. I would be glad to take a look at it. Maybe I find something I haven't seen or read so far.

Thanks

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It's a valid point Tonci, if the majority of the people in the UK don't share Walker's outlook, who is he to change the UK to suit himself? If it were me I would have to have some justification before I acted in that manner. Only dictators govern without consent.

---------- Post added at 09:06 PM ---------- Previous post was at 09:05 PM ----------

Yes but how can it be right for a tiny minority to impose their wishes on the majority? And attempt to do so without obtaining any form of consent or democratic justification?

Are you sure that the majority of people in the UK don´t share walkers outlook? How can you be so sure?

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their claims have already been debunked.

No they weren't. You just believe they were and call the others pseudo-scientists because Fox News said so, right?.

You don't have to be a scientist to question wheter any flight 93 really crashed here.

Flight93Crash.jpg

Your willingness to believe this pseudoscience is a perfect example of the confirmation bias to which the comic I linked earlier was referring.

Your willigness to ignore facts is a perfect example of the confirmation bias to which the comic You linked earlier was referring.

http://pilotsfor911truth.org

http://911research.wtc7.net

http://www.loosechange911.com

EDIT: Please don't post me videos of retards, both sides are full of them.

Edited by batto

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Are you sure that the majority of people in the UK don´t share walkers outlook? How can you be so sure?

Results of the last election. Large array of potential candidates in every ward but the majority went for something completely the opposite of Walker hence the current government. So where is his mandate?

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Results of the last election. Large array of potential candidates in every ward but the majority went for something completely the opposite of Walker hence the current government. So where is his mandate?

Who did the people elect? The guy that promised the most, did he fullfill his promises? No? People are definately angry and have the right to be. Besides that, how many people did vote? I guess its was around 30% of the population. How much did the candidate get? Around 40% I guess? Well that´s 40% out of 30% (I´m just guessing, I don´t know the exact percentages) that´s hardly a majority

Political candidates in every ward?

Many eople have realized that it doesn´t really matter whom you vote and therefore boycott the votings. Pelham please get out of your little dream bubble

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Far be it for me to state this, but the specifics on 9/11 and the more deeper ins and outs might be worth a PM post, I only say this becuase I know a moderator or two here have locked the threads due to this. What im trying to say is those who get it will, other who dont or think its all balls wont and thats that really, but direct linking to that subject matter will always get a lock hovering. I only speak of "that particular specific subject" not the overall global things.

^^ Just speaking in terms of past experience of threads and such.

Yes but how can it be right for a tiny minority to impose their wishes on the majority? And attempt to do so without obtaining any form of consent or democratic justification?

Thats EXACTLY what we have now, haha!

Edited by mrcash2009

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who cares about 9/11 anymore? what happened was a sideshow compared to the US's foreign policy for the last century. It's a political event now, and as far as I'm concerned the only person who is still screeching about it is rudy Giuliani, the fascist bastard of new york. I'm all for a new investigation, but it's at the bottom of my list of things to do.

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Thats EXACTLY what we have now, haha!

Turnout was 65%.

Of that 65%, 59.1% voted for either of the 2 parties in the coalition government. Ever going to check your facts before posting?

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Murrow was right "The fault, dear Brutus, is not in our stars, but in ourselves."

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who cares about 9/11 anymore? what happened was a sideshow compared to the US's foreign policy for the last century. It's a political event now' date=' and as far as I'm concerned the only person who is still screeching about it is rudy Giuliani, the fascist bastard of new york. I'm all for a new investigation, but it's at the bottom of my list of things to do.[/quote']

Dear Fox '09

A lot of people still care, myself included and the numbers are growing. Furthermore, as long as the truth won't come out the people must remember what happened that tragic day and push for a new investigation. For being honest I don't have much hope that the truth will ever come out. The people responsible for what happened are not accountable. They are acting above the law. They have too much power and they are backed by the juridical system in the USA.

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Turnout was 65%.

Of that 65%, 59.1% voted for either of the 2 parties in the coalition government. Ever going to check your facts before posting?

Pelham, my dear friend. I was refering to the fact that we have a minority of wealthy elite in control at the top, filtering down into political parties and then to us. We are in a situation currently that is exactly as you describe, but you are only seeing things from the party level.

What if the majority of people like things the way they are?

** UK BASED ** - Apologies

Thats the majority based on voting stats right? Not the majority getting cuts and the low voting recently then :

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2123754/Disgusted-voters-main-party-leaders-worst-poll-ratings-history.html

We are in a really dodgy financial time, privatising of well, anything, health, businesses, workfare free work systems for unemployed which is higher all the time (now showing to be scamming targets), ill people being re checked and fit for work under cancer treatments and plenty of bad stories based under private companies doing the checking, council homes being sold to tenants again (even though waiting lists are getting bigger and bigger) .. we are in a depression (yes depression) "globally" .. we have a current war drums for Iran which has MANY domino effects. We have fuel issues now becuase the gov told everyone to panic buy (almost) now prices of that are going up as a result, we have army to come in if strikes becuase of fuel prices (world issues knock on effect with cost a barrel) .. so that's not being dealt with at the point it should, and yet .... you suggest the majority of people want things the way they are???????

Are you on the same dimension as others?

** I know this was UK based, but US/UK are mirroring each other in many ways currently.

If so, by what consent do you destroy those people and businesses, yours alone? That is what is selfish and immature, you act without any justification.

This shows just how corrupt your thought processes are.

If it mirrors the government in its end results, and you dont get shocked by the government, its a telling sign, as I mentioned before.

This is why they are looking to monitor the web, extremists acting purely in their own self interest and without any regard to law

Ah, yes the "Extremisms" badge, if you read a few pages back this is exactly what I posted about as reasons to justify us all being monitored, Pelham you have been well and truly "guided" .. extremism was a Muslim "thing" in the media, but the media have spun this into anything, and you have just posted this. I just wonder when you will post thoughts that are actually yours alone and not what your supposed to think.

Edited by mrcash2009

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Quote Originally Posted by PELHAM

What if the majority of people like things the way they are? If so, by what consent do you destroy those people and businesses, yours alone? That is what is selfish and immature, you act without any justification. This shows just how corrupt your thought processes are. This is why they are looking to monitor the web, extremists acting purely in their own self interest and without any regard to law, democracy or the common good. It will cost the UK 2Billion to set this up, something I will share my part in paying purely because of a tiny minority who don't have the skills or patience to work within society.

Thing is, a lot of people did put a cross on a piece of paper, do their rights and point of view not count in Walker world? You can campaign, fight and scream all you like, you will never change the world to suit yourself.

Point is, people like Walker (yes he is an extremist of the minority view by any definition) are acting to suit themselves because they have not bothered to ask anyone else if that is how they want things done. There are 1000's of groups and activists all claiming to be acting for the common good and on my behalf. But they never bother asking for consent. So how do they know that the majority want what they want? Some people are so convinced by the correctness of their view and their actions that they never consider that many others might disagree. The corrupt major corporations and government that they hate act in precisely the same way. I would like, just once in my lifetime, a letter to drop through the door from some of these 'Campaigners' asking my opinion. In 30 years it hasn't happened once.

Edited by PELHAM

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Hi all

In reply to PELHAM's recent posts.

Point 1) It is good to see you have recognised that your Strawman argument was wrong. It would be perhaps more appropriate if you had apologised for inferring it in the first place.

Point 2) PELHAM still has not replied to the two questions I posed.

Hi all

1) In what way is putting political and economic pressure on politicians, businesses or individuals engaged in actions designed to spy on peoples/voters/taxpayers personal data violent?

2) In what way is engaging in actions designed to spy on peoples/voters/taxpayers personal data NOT violent? ...

Point 3) This is the US Politics Thread.

I posted about a Law going through the US Legislature.

UK Politics goes in the European Politics thread.

Point 4) On my analysis of PELHAM's professed view of how politics works. Forum readers may read from here in order to follow the thread of the current conversation. I paraphrase in numbered points so that PELHAM may correct or dispute the points:

i PELHAM seems to think that the sole political input of Citizen / Tax Payers should be to put an X on piece of paper when they are allowed to.

ii PELHAM further seems to believe that the only people allowed to put pressure on politicians are journalists.

iii PELHAM seems to believe that Protest should not be allowed in politics.

iv PELHAM seems to believe that naming and shaming and boycott are not legitimate political acts.

I will provide evidential quotes for why I come to these conclusions of PELHAM's professed views if requested.

My Answer to PELHAM's view:

If I may say that is an elitist view of politics, and the plane fact is, it is not the one that holds here in reality.

a) The process of the law being created is that those who want the law lobby for it and write and frame it then get US Congress and Senate members to sponsor it. PELHAM seems to be under the impression that politicians write legislation. They do not. Not even in England. Politicians frame aspects of law, they may even add the odd line, but the majority of any act of law is framed and written by interested parties; this includes, civil servants, lawyers, businesses and those people who PELHAM thinks sole political input should be to put an X on piece of paper when they are allowed to; Citizen / Tax Payers.

b) It is process that many contribute to and is much more important and powerful than putting an X on the piece of paper. That is why Businesses and elites of all shades spend so much time and money on it. That is the source of much of their power. It is time for the people Citizen / Tax Payers to take that power back!

c) Unlike the view PELHAM professes, and I point out tries to hoodwink us with, here in reality your contribution to politics does not have to end with putting an X on the piece of paper, I am an Anarchist I have never and will never believe that lie.

d) As Democracy evolves to a more anarchic form of government it is this form of political power that will increasingly come to dominate how Citizen / Tax Payers contribute to the political process. Don't let the elitists continue to fool you. Even in the Mafia Oligarchies of Russia Citizens have begun to realise this and are joining the nuts and bolts process that actually creates the law.

e) How the process works

Power Elites, Businesses and 1% er representatives, frame and write legislation in two ways:

I) Laws that constrain and control Power Elites, Businesses and 1% ers are narrowly defined and with multiple clauses and complex ideally unfathomable legal wording such as to make the laws infective.

II) Laws that constrain and control Citizens / Tax Payers are deliberately vague; as is the case with this CISPA law and also was the case with the SOPA and PIPA acts that preceded it. This is in order that with the aid of a smart expensive lawyer for Power Elites, Businesses and 1% ers these laws can be legally manipulated so that they can be applied to the benefit of the Power Elites, Businesses and 1% ers, and the Detriment of Citizens / Tax Payers.

III) Power Elites, Businesses and 1% er representatives sneak laws in with last minute amendments to acts that have little or nothing to do with the core legislation, so as to prevent their being spotted and discussed.

These processes even apply to the Tax code. Which is why 1%ers pay little tax where as the poor and Middle class Citizens / Tax Payers pay a much higher percentage of their earnings as Tax.

f) I assert that: The acts of naming and shaming and boycott are and remain, legitimate political methods of pressure where Democracy is found wanting.

More Generaly

While I have directed this to the US Politics thread, the processes exist in every democracy.

The fact that such laws all appear in multiple countries goes somewhat toward supporting the view that nettrucker professed that an organised effort by Power Elites, Businesses and 1% er representatives is being enacted. If such is the case, then knowing who said malfeasant s are is a prerequisite to punishing them. Something PELHAM seems for whatever reason to object to.

Perhaps the methodologies of Spying that PELHAM thinks should be applied to Citizens / Tax Payers should be applied to him, so we can see how he really likes it. If you want to know where CISPA is already leading then read this:

http://gizmodo.com/5899432/look-whos-stalking-the-10-creepiest-apps-for-phones-facebook-more

I would think that the fact that businesses are already using existing changes to legislation that they have created to enable them to do these kinds of things would be enough to cause every right thinking person to come to the conclusion that they law does need to be changed, but only to prevent the CISPA like powers that already exist.

Further in the mean time until anti CISPA/SOPA/PIPA laws are enacted and brought into force; I think the action I called for in the first post that so enraged PELHAM as to mistakenly accuse me of calling for Violence:

Hi all

The fact this keeps occuring points to people who want it.

Time to find out who they are.

Then personalize this, find out who the sponsors and lobbyists are then destroy their careers and businesses through targeted actions that make life as miserable for them as they intend to make it for us. Concentrate first of all on the ones whos names appear as contributers in mutiple versions of these laws.

Create or use an existing public website with each of the perpertrators and supporters of these types of laws listed, and then let croudsourcing do its work in identifying them and what they do and how we can put such pressure on them that every other person who ever thinks they can get away with this, will think twice...

Are precisely what are needed.

And that they should be re-enacted using the methods I described in this post:

I thank PELHAM for recognising my mighty powers of world wide persuasion!

What if the majority of people like things the way they are? If so, by what consent do you destroy those people and businesses, yours alone? That is what is selfish and immature, you act without any justification. This shows just how corrupt your thought processes are. This is why they are looking to monitor the web, extremists acting purely in their own self interest and without any regard to law, democracy or the common good. It will cost the UK 2Billion to set this up, something I will share my part in paying purely because of a tiny minority who don't have the skills or patience to work within society.

Thing is, a lot of people did put a cross on a piece of paper, do their rights and point of view not count in Walker world? You can campaign, fight and scream all you like, you will never change the world to suit yourself.

[sARCASM]Today BIS forums Tomorow the World! MuhaawHaawHaaHaHa![/sARCASM] thought it best to parenthasize that in case certain people thought I was being serious.

Here in reality, the power I wield, is one voice, it can only be powerful where it agrees with and cristalizes the views of many others.

I remain yours, an Anarchist and Active member of the Awkward squad with Kind Regards walker

Edited by walker

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Point is, people like Walker (yes he is an extremist of the minority view by any definition) are acting to suit themselves because they have not bothered to ask anyone else if that is how they want things done. There are 1000's of groups and activists all claiming to be acting for the common good and on my behalf. But they never bother asking for consent. So how do they know that the majority want what they want? Some people are so convinced by the correctness of their view and their actions that they never consider that many others might disagree. The corrupt major corporations and government that they hate act in precisely the same way. I would like, just once in my lifetime, a letter to drop through the door from some of these 'Campaigners' asking my opinion. In 30 years it hasn't happened once.

I wonder if you even know how funny this post is? Irony is a bitch

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Here in reality, the power I wield, is one voice, it can only be powerful where it agrees with and cristalizes the views of many others.

My point exactly, how many people agree with you? Who have you asked? A cause consisting of a minority view has no legitmacy. If you were to set out your plans and hold a referendum would you win?

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Dear Fox '09

A lot of people still care, myself included and the numbers are growing. Furthermore, as long as the truth won't come out the people must remember what happened that tragic day and push for a new investigation. For being honest I don't have much hope that the truth will ever come out. The people responsible for what happened are not accountable. They are acting above the law. They have too much power and they are backed by the juridical system in the USA.

If you don't think anything will ever happen, then why bother? This country has been sliding down ever since McCarthy and Ronald Reagan's ilk have been suppressing dissent of corporate control. It's merely a show now if you ask me, so kick back, relax and watch the empire crumble. Didn't start with them, but boy did they even push this country off the edge. Next up: commercial real estate bubble.

@PELHAM

Walker took his time to write up his post, don't you think he at least deserves to have all (if not most) of his points refuted one by one instead of responding to one point?

Edited by Fox '09

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Don´t bother Fox, I start to think that Pelham is just arguing for the sake of it.

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@PELHAM

Walker took his time to write up his post' date=' don't you think he at least deserves to have all (if not most) of his points refuted one by one instead of responding to one point?[/quote']

If it wasn't so full of inaccuracies about what I believe or said I probably would. I was simply wondering if the Anarchists were in any way democratic. I guess from that it's a "no".

It's not unreasonable that they ask the opinion of the majority before they engage in tearing down the system is it? How can it be right that a small minority dictates how the rest should live, be that the elite or the anarchists?

---------- Post added at 07:02 PM ---------- Previous post was at 07:01 PM ----------

Don´t bother Fox, I start to think that Pelham is just arguing for the sake of it.

No Fox Tonci is just calling me names to try and devalue my point of view because he doesn't agree with it.

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If it wasn't so full of inaccuracies about what I believe or said I probably would. I was simply wondering if the Anarchists were in any way democratic. I guess from that it's a "no".

It's not unreasonable that they ask the opinion of the majority before they engage in tearing down the system is it? How can it be right that a small minority dictates how the rest should live, be that the elite or the anarchists?

---------- Post added at 07:02 PM ---------- Previous post was at 07:01 PM ----------

No Fox Tonci is just calling me names to try and devalue my point of view because he doesn't agree with it.

I hear you. I'm all for civil dialogue, I think Tonci went a bit over the edge. I haven't actually read walker's post yet, but I assume what he's driving at is , even if they are a minority, they are on the side of the majority (the majority is somewhat progressive and untrustworthy of the goverment as noted by polls). Their tactics and motives may be different, but if you ask me they're technically on the side of the 99 percent, even if their tactics undermine the 99 percent's efforts. A part of me wants to cheer the anarchists when they terrorize bankers. Government should be afraid of the people. However, I think nonviolence is the only way true, long-term change can happen (if at all).

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If you don't think anything will ever happen' date=' then why bother? This country has been sliding down ever since McCarthy and Ronald Reagan's ilk have been suppressing dissent of corporate control. It's merely a show now if you ask me, so kick back, relax and watch the empire crumble. Didn't start with them, but boy did they even push this country off the edge. Next up: commercial real estate bubble.[/quote']

I don't know . . . but it bothers me a lot. I should have precised that no change will be achieved by legal means. But I'm convinced that we will see massive social unrest all over the world, the current situation is just the beginning and it's going to get a lot worse. When we, the people, are with our backs against the wall and there's no way to retreat further, then we are going to push back. When we the 99% will start to starve and experiencing a lot of hardship, then the next big revolution is going to happen and it won't be a peacefull event.

I must say that the power elite has been very skillful in distorting the reality, lying to the people and deceiving them. They control the mainstream media all over the world which is the most powerful tool to manipulate the public opinion. Rockfeller himself said that without the loyality of the mainstream media they couldn't have achieved what they have so far.

The only thing I can try to do is to talk with people and with my friends about what is happening around us. But everytime I talk with my friends about these kind of matters I see that they are feeling very uncomfortable in discusing the current situation.

The ignorance of people all over the world, concerning the actual status quo, is really mindboggling to me because I see that they are brainwashed by the mainstream media and they prefer to stuck their heads in the sand.

What makes me really furious is the replies I get such like. "What can we do? We can do nothing."

I'm always answering that the first thing they can do is research to gather information. Second talk with people about what's going on, try to raise awareness. But in the end I see that they prefer sitting in front of their TV and let others decide for them what to think.

It's most of the time very frustrating to see the indifference in people about their own future and the future of the next generations, hence I understand why you are saying "Why even bother . . . just kick back . . . relax and watch the show."

Fact is people are slowly waking up but it's not enough. Awareness must be spread as much as possible.

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I hear you. I'm all for civil dialogue' date=' I think Tonci went a bit over the edge. I haven't actually read walker's post yet, but I assume what he's driving at is , even if they are a minority, they are on the side of the majority (the majority is somewhat progressive and untrustworthy of the goverment as noted by polls). Their tactics and motives may be different, but if you ask me they're technically on the side of the 99 percent, even if their tactics undermine the 99 percent's efforts. A part of me wants to cheer the anarchists when they terrorize bankers. Government should be afraid of the people. However, I think nonviolence is the only way true, long-term change can happen (if at all).[/quote']

Well said, but just to be sticky about the technicalities, if they really do stand for 99%, they need to prove it and ask. So far they and most other minority groups have not done so and show no interest in doing so. If there is no democatic vote, they are not democratic and are imposing their will on the majority without democratic consent. That is what bothers me, if the Anarchists or any other group could post evidence of majority popular support well that would be that. The continued program of tearing down what they disagree with, without any hard evidence of public consent is simply wrong. If the RSPB can bother me about membership on a weekly basis surely the Anarchists, Wikileaks and Occupy and others could drop a ballot paper though the letter box of every home in most countries?

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