Addons at ease

[Lt_Damage 0]

We are still working on those features.

It is custom designed for the OGN server, we don't really need descriptions of each addon. Nor an addon manager. But those things are easily done.

Its the core use of the tool that keeps EVERY ofp player on ogn, from the guru's to the fresh players, up to date with the server addons.

Its just a way to overcome the problem where servers that use addons have players that cannot connect.

[Lt_Damage 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Skier55d @ April 14 2003,16:05)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">continuing on thoughts on the "updater" program...

in more detail i think it could work like this...

1. Establish a page or small site that is hosted by Codemasters or BIS, that way everything is done officially and can be reviewed and rated according to one official grading system. This site would be dynamic (similar to OFPEC's addon system), if you wanted to submit an addon, go to the submission page, submit the file add a description, picture, and other necessary info (for the OFPEC tag system for AAE) to be reviewed by BIS, Codemasters or whoever hosts the site. When it has been reviewed and accepted, it would be uploaded to the site, then a link along with the description and so on would be added to the database i mentioned earlier, that way files aren't spread between a variety of sites  and narrows the field of error.

2. At the site, you can download an official "AAE" updater program made by BIS or Codemasters. The interface should be simple, straight-forward and easy to understand (similar to something you might see on the Windows Updater web page). You can check for updates which would retrieve the current list of files then check it against the OFP Addons folder (or in this case ofp/res/addons folder since it is primarily made to support 1.91) to see which addons are currently installed. Ones that are not installed can simply be downloaded and automatically installed for the user so there is no copying of files to any OFP folders therefore no confusion among simple computer users. Inside the updater could be an addon manager that allows you to easily get information about currently installed addons, and allow the user to automatically un-install the file if necessary, with once again, no messy file sifting.

but with every idea there are problems, some of which could be keeping databases up to date, the time-comitment for reviewing files, or the amount of official sponsorship from BIS (hopefully this won't be a problem).

This is what i have in mind...  <span id='postcolor'>

Well I keep the file list for OGN addons up to date quite easily, only takes 15 minutes out of my day.

As it stands the tool does everything you ask except the addon management and descriptions of addons.

[-CCCP-Stalker 0]

You now that the same file compressed with clickteams installer is 15Mb large and using WinRAR 3 only 13Mb. So what is the compression rate of AAE ?

[Fiestel 0]

I would like to put my 2 cents in regarding installers. In one word: NO!

The reason, as I saw in at least one other post, is simple. It's spelled V-I-R-U-S. Sure installers make it easy to install an addon, but I personally do not see the difficulty in unzipping an addon into your addon directory. It is very simple and anyone can learn how to do it. The same would be said for unzipping missions.

Sure an installer will install the .pbo into your addon directory, or the mission in the appropriate place, but my primary concern is "what else" it may install without my knowledge. Now, I'm NOT saying that OFP addon makers are virus writers, but at the same time I have no way to verify that they are not. I know I can scan an .exe file the same as I can a .zip file, but at least with a .zip file I can see all the files and if I want to, I can unzip only the .pbo and scan it again if I so desire. With an installer, who knows how many files are in there? I would definitely classify myself as an advanced user and I do insist on knowing what is happening on my system at all times. Perhaps I am just a little paranoid, but don't they say that to stay relatively safe from viruses and such that you should only surf or download from reputable sites? It all comes down to trust and I do not know any of these addon makers personally. But running an installer puts you in the addon makers hands and, I believe, pretty much leaves you out of the loop while the installer runs. Hopefully anti-virus software would catch anything suspicious, but why risk it?

Don't get me wrong, I'm not against easy installation, but I don't see unzipping files as difficult. All I can say is that if installers become the norm and as I saw in a few other posts, I will not be downloading any addons that are not simple .zip files. Perhaps as a solution, that if the addon maker chooses to use an installer, maybe they will also have a version of their addon/mission in a .zip file for those of us who are against installers.

I'd like to comment on one other related item even though it is not really part of this particular forum. I like downloading addons in .zip files - not .rar or any other format. I do not want to have to install X number of different zip utilities just so I can unzip all the different file formats. This particular forum is about setting standards, so being that .zip is the most common, why use something else? Again, as a solution, rather than using one format only, maybe have your addon available in an multiple formats, ie. .zip, .rar, .exe as BAS did for their Delta/Ranger addon which I appreciated very much.

I didn't mean to write a novel here, but I just thought I'd pass along my thoughts.

Fiestel

[OxPecker 0]

If the installers are endorsed and distributed by BIS, I think the chance of virus is almost 0%.

I mean, you run the exe files that BIS distribute their patches in, right? And I bet most of you installed the BIS Camel addon?

[Lt_Damage 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Fiestel @ April 15 2003,11:55)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">I would like to put my 2 cents in regarding installers.  In one word: NO!

The reason, as I saw in at least one other post, is simple.  It's spelled V-I-R-U-S.  Sure installers make it easy to install an addon, but I personally do not see the difficulty in unzipping an addon into your addon directory.  It is very simple and anyone can learn how to do it.  The same would be said for unzipping missions.

Sure an installer will install the .pbo into your addon directory, or the mission in the appropriate place, but my primary concern is "what else" it may install without my knowledge.  Now, I'm NOT saying that OFP addon makers are virus writers, but at the same time I have no way to verify that they are not.  I know I can scan an .exe file the same as I can a .zip file, but at least with a .zip file I can see all the files and if I want to, I can unzip only the .pbo and scan it again if I so desire.  With an installer, who knows how many files are in there?  I would definitely classify myself as an advanced user and I do insist on knowing what is happening on my system at all times.  Perhaps I am just a little paranoid, but don't they say that to stay relatively safe from viruses and such that you should only surf or download from reputable sites?  It all comes down to trust and I do not know any of these addon makers personally.  But running an installer puts you in the addon makers hands and, I believe, pretty much leaves you out of the loop while the installer runs.  Hopefully anti-virus software would catch anything suspicious, but why risk it?

Don't get me wrong, I'm not against easy installation, but I don't see unzipping files as difficult.  All I can say is that if installers become the norm and as I saw in a few other posts, I will not be downloading any addons that are not simple .zip files.  Perhaps as a solution, that if the addon maker chooses to use an installer, maybe they will also have a version of their addon/mission in a .zip file for those of us who are against installers.

I'd like to comment on one other related item even though it is not really part of this particular forum.  I like downloading addons in .zip files - not .rar or any other format.  I do not want to have to install X number of different zip utilities just so I can unzip all the different file formats.  This particular forum is about setting standards, so being that .zip is the most common, why use something else?  Again, as a solution, rather than using one format only, maybe have your addon available in an multiple formats, ie. .zip, .rar, .exe as BAS did for their Delta/Ranger addon which I appreciated very much.

I didn't mean to write a novel here, but I just thought I'd pass along my thoughts.

Fiestel<span id='postcolor'>

As I'm sure an advanced user like yourself knows, if you have a virus scanner installed, or in your case, seven virus scanners installed then anything being uncompressed by the installer onto your desk will be scanner by file system realtime protection.

There is no security that a zip file can provide from viruses that compressed cab files or other archives cannot.

Besides, you are being a bit paranoid, nobody wants to install viruses to your computer cunningly disguised as fun addons.

[Tigershark_BAS 0]

As the founder of OFPEC and the co-creator (along with Snypir and SelectThis) of the OFPEC Tagging system and as a experienced addon maker who assembled the Ballistic Addon Studios team....I would like to say that I fear that this is all too little too late.

I can't help but vent a little frustration here....Where were you guys 1.5 - 2 years ago when we started the tagging system and realised this would get out of control? We asked you back then for your support to help convince the community (what a battle that was!!! and still they are not completely convinced about the value of it. Now there is talk of Addons At Ease with a list of standards that BAS has followed since our first addon.......I don't see how this all is really helping....now that we have a proliferation of addons out there with no tags and little standards.

Guys at BIS....I'm sorry...I don't mean to be critical of you....I just needed to get that off my chest. It's just that you always seems to be REACTING to issues rather than being PROACTIVE to prevent them.

My personal feeling is that this whole idea (AAE) is simply addressing the symptoms of the major issue of how OFP handles addons. It does not address the true problem...just the complications that arise from it.

I believe a much more beneficial discussion would be had if we cut our losses and talked about how to implement better addon support in OFP2.

Things such as:

-Being able to skin models without requiring another PBO file with exact same model (p3d file). The mission editor would have a "browser" that would let the mission maker choose a unit, view it in 3d (like bulldozer) and then choose the appropriate "skin" rrom a list of installed user created skins. Not unlike how we choose faces for characters at the moment using the Player screen.

-Addon version control

-Established standards for development (max polycounts, techniques and tricks from the developer to help us build better more effecient addons)

-The ability to create a single base model and have it "tack on" separate pieces such as weapons pylons so that a single aircraft can have mutiple loadouts without creating a new P3d for each variant.

The list goes on.....and we could vastly improve the problem we are facing now by simply better handling how addons are handled within the game engine. The first idea alone would mean less PBOs....which would mean less hassle and mistakes made by people who simply want to reskin a unit to make look like their countries vehicle/plane/unit.

With some creativity we can limit many of the problems we have now by innovative solutions to how addons are created and handled by the engine.

My feeling....it's too late for OFP1. I think we should look forward and deal with the illness rather than trying to cure the symptoms.

But hey....on the other hand...I could just be a rambling visionary....I don't know;)

I mean...the tagging system....2 years before its time.

BAS Addon creating standards which bear a remarkable resemblance to Addons At Ease.....6 months before it's time.

You can choose to dismiss my comments but the fact remains...as someone who has been with the community from the VERY beginning and even helped forge part of the community (specifically editing and addon making) we enjoy today, most of the warning flags I raised have now become reality.

And my current fear and warning flag is that none of this is directly dealing with the problem but only with the symptoms.

So here's our chance...and a chance for BIS....the chance to be proactive about dealing with problems in future OFP products!

Are we and BIS going to step up to the plate? Or are we going to continue to discuss standards that are probably only good for another year of life in OFP until OFP2 comes out next year? And when it comes out are we going to see a repeat of the same frustrating issues with addon development we experience now?

For the record...I think the toolset provided by BIS to make addons is actually pretty good. I think the method of making addons is pretty sound...it's how the engine handles them that maybe needs some work.

[Fiestel 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Lt_Damage @ April 15 2003,02)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">As I'm sure an advanced user like yourself knows, if you have a virus scanner installed, or in your case, seven virus scanners installed    then anything being uncompressed by the installer onto your desk will be scanner by file system realtime protection.

There is no security that a zip file can provide from viruses that compressed cab files or other archives cannot.

Besides, you are being a bit paranoid, nobody wants to install viruses to your computer cunningly disguised as fun addons.  <span id='postcolor'>

Yes, I am aware that virus scanners scan in real time (and I only have one virus scanner   )  What I was trying to say is, unless I'm mistaken, you cannot see the files inside the installer, correct?  If you could, then that would be different.

Even with a BIS approved installer, someone could "theoretically" still install, say, a .txt file in my windows/system directory without my knowledge.  Now I know you're going to say, "Why would someone do that?".  And you're right, why would they?  But that is my point, it is possible.  Perhaps the BIS installer could accomodate everyone at all levels by having one click installation for those who want that, and let us paranoid guys/gals see the files and choose to extract each file ourselves if we wanted.  I could go along with that  

Fiestel The Paranoid

[OxPecker 0]

Tigershark, I have to disagree.

Yes, I know this initiative would have been better much sooner, but that's no reason not to go ahead with it now.

We are still looking at another 9+months before we get OFP2, so any addon management would be welcomed in the meantime.

Besides, the lesson learned by implementing AAE could help with a similar scheme for OFP2.

[Lt_Damage 0]

Ok well thats fair enough, the update tool we use shows what its about to install, and the next version will allow you to deselect things you don't want (although for OGN players we don't advise this, as it will not guarantee you are up to date with addons the server is using)

[Hugo the Clown 0]

The addon installer is a great idea.

With including a mission for weapon addons or small addons all you need to do is place your weapons or vehicles ect in a map, easy no need to make a huge mission and just name the mission "addonname_test" or some thing similar. seems alot of people worrying about putting missions in when it realy is so simple.

[Tigershark_BAS 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (OxPecker @ April 15 2003,04:13)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Tigershark, I have to disagree.

Yes, I know this initiative would have been better much sooner, but that's no reason not to go ahead with it now.

We are still looking at another 9+months before we get OFP2, so any addon management would be welcomed in the meantime.

Besides, the lesson learned by implementing AAE could help with a similar scheme for OFP2.<span id='postcolor'>

I expect this will be the reply from many in this thread. Fair enough...I can respect that.

Your reply, however, did not rebutt the contention that this is all curing the symptoms and not the disease. Which was fundamentally my point....there would less need for complicated addon management if we could put our heads together and figure out how to better handle addons in future game engines.

Furthermore...let me ask....what is it exactly BIS is bringing to this process? What value add are they providing after the community has been self-regulating (poorly but slowly improving) for the past 2+ years?

As far as I can tell the value add is advertising on their site for the addon maker (not sure exactly how this helps now with the few excellent news and hosting sites we have out there), official recognition of the OFPEC tagging system and possibly a installer tool. Perhaps it's just me....but I fail to see the value add here.

It's not hard to draw a commercial link between this "initiative" and the rapidly approaching release of the X-Box version of OFP. Not suggesting BIS plans to make money off us addon makers.....but you can't help but see there is a factor of self-interest here in providing an easy method for X-Box users to easily access community addons.

Someone in the OFPEC forums asked this about AAE:

"Isn't this like closing the barn door after the horse has bolted"

I would like to suggest that devoting time to this rather than addressing addons in future editions of OFP is like devoting energy into making a complicated GPS device to track the horse when he runs away rather than taking a hammer and nails and fixing the damn barn door

[OxPecker 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Tigershark_BAS @ April 15 2003,04:40)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (OxPecker @ April 15 2003,04:13)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Tigershark, I have to disagree.

Yes, I know this initiative would have been better much sooner, but that's no reason not to go ahead with it now.

We are still looking at another 9+months before we get OFP2, so any addon management would be welcomed in the meantime.

Besides, the lesson learned by implementing AAE could help with a similar scheme for OFP2.<span id='postcolor'>

I expect this will be the reply from many in this thread. Fair enough...I can respect that.

Your reply, however, did not rebutt the contention that this is all curing the symptoms and not the disease. Which was fundamentally my point....there would less need for complicated addon management if we could put our heads together and figure out how to better handle addons in future game engines.

Furthermore...let me ask....what is it exactly BIS is bringing to this process? What value add are they providing after the community has been self-regulating (poorly but slowly improving) for the past 2+ years?

As far as I can tell the value add is advertising on their site for the addon maker (not sure exactly how this helps now with the few excellent news and hosting sites we have out there), official recognition of the OFPEC tagging system and possibly a installer tool. Perhaps it's just me....but I fail to see the value add here.

It's not hard to draw a commercial link between this "initiative" and the rapidly approaching release of the X-Box version of OFP. Not suggesting BIS plans to make money off us addon makers.....but you can't help but see there is a factor of self-interest here in providing an easy method for X-Box users to easily access community addons.

Someone in the OFPEC forums asked this about AAE:

"Isn't this like closing the barn door after the horse has bolted"

I would like to suggest that devoting time to this rather than addressing addons in future editions of OFP is like devoting energy into making a complicated GPS device to track the horse when he runs away rather than taking a hammer and nails and fixing the damn barn door  <span id='postcolor'>

Agreed, the emphasis should be on easier integration of addons for OFP2. I understand your point better now.

But also, regardless of the format or timing, it is good to see BIS giving a stamp of approval to good addons. This is something seperate from the implementation of how addons are installed, and definitely a step in the right direction.

[Tigershark_BAS 0]

Aaaah....this is something we can both agree on....yes it is good to see BIS getting involved....I just hope they can also take it to the next level with our help.

[Hugo the Clown 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">It's not hard to draw a commercial link between this "initiative" and the rapidly approaching release of the X-Box version of OFP. Not suggesting BIS plans to make money off us addon makers.....but you can't help but see there is a factor of self-interest here in providing an easy method for X-Box users to easily access community addons.

<span id='postcolor'>

Yes I see your point. Im sure BIS have the best intentions even though this could be one of the reason they have decided to release this addon Installer.

In my Opinion if it benefits the community its all good, but if its used for comercial gain then it is truly sad.

[Lt_Damage 0]

I don't think BIS have even mentioned an installer at all. I think they were intending to establish a standard for addons that wish to be compliant with AAE. I believe they want to standardize what level of quality an AAE addon should be, what it includes with the package and the stamp also requires it to be easy to install.

They did not give specifics about the installation method.

[SFG 1]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Lt_Damage @ April 15 2003,05:50)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">I don't think BIS have even mentioned an installer at all.<span id='postcolor'>

"1) Convenient, simple and standard install / uninstall of addons/missions for Operation Flashpoint. For this we developed a special utility to creat MSI Windows Installer file to install any Operation Flashpoint addon or mission."

[Lt_Damage 0]

Ah yes, they did too, that MSI thing.

The MSI takes care of players who are not competent to use zip archives and copy files into the right directory. However if a server decides to use addons they players still simply get disconnected until players on the server tell them what they need to do.

I wish that part of it could be taken care of.

[Dwarden 1124]

For security :

MD5 checksum of files must be shown on site and in readme (or in filename.md5)

When any installer included then after execution it should calc own integrity and addon's file integrity (again e.g. via MD5 or SHA-1)

{so this probably stops paranoia}

P.S. game which stops to be updated dies out (imagine e.g. old HL-CS w/o updates) ... it's sad rule

[suma 8]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (SFG @ April 15 2003,05:52)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Lt_Damage @ April 15 2003,05:50)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">I don't think BIS have even mentioned an installer at all.<span id='postcolor'>

"1) Convenient, simple and standard install / uninstall of addons/missions for Operation Flashpoint. For this we developed a special utility to creat MSI Windows Installer file to install any Operation Flashpoint addon or mission."<span id='postcolor'>

When the idea of single-click addon installation first came out, there was quite a lot of people who were against this because thay did not want to execute 3rd party exe files on their computer from security reason (exe file can easily contain a lot of harmfull things).

Therefore we have decided to use Windows built-in installation capabilities and to require Addons At Ease to use it. We have also created an utility (which will be published after this discussion will help us to fine tune it) that makes creating .MSI file very easy - you place several folders, run our utility and addon is ready to be distributed.

[suma 8]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">but you can't help but see there is a factor of self-interest here in providing an easy method for X-Box users to easily access community addons.

<span id='postcolor'>

Interesting speculation - but it shows a lack of Xbox undestanding. Msi addons can in no way be installed on Xbox. If there will be any Xbox addons, they will need to be packaged in a very different way, following many Xbox specific guidelines, including some Xbox specific content security handling.

The whole AAE idea is a result of carefull observation how people use addons (and why many of them do not use any). What we want to do with AAE is to make addon audience broader - for OFP PC  benefit (and this way for BIS company as well - which is where the self-interest mentioned is), and for the benefit of those addon makers, who are interested in it.

As someone also noted correctly, we also hope to learn some lessons that will help us to make addon management in our future products much easier - we all agree a lot should be done in this area, including many changes in the way addons are handled in the game.

[suma 8]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Lt_Damage @ April 15 2003,06:04)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">However if a server decides to use addons they players still simply get disconnected until players on the server tell them what they need to do.

I wish that part of it could be taken care of.<span id='postcolor'>

I think anyone can clearly see that AAE is not something that would solve all possible problems.

On the other hand I think it should be possible easy to create some "meta-installation" tool that would be able to install .msi addons automatically. Actually I think creating such tool is much easier than to create a tool that takes care of every single step of installation. With .msi installer you have clearly defined interface that will enable you to install any AAE compliant addon - including such addons in any custom packages should be pretty easy.

[Guest]

I would of thought the self-interest was obvious. And I think there's a bit of self interest for addon makers too.

Better addon management = More people interested in addons

More people interested in addons = More addons

More addons = Better addons (statistically)

Better addons (statistically) = More people buy OFP

More people buy OFP = More money for BIS

More money for BIS = Better addon management

Everybody wins!

[Lt_Damage 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Leone @ April 15 2003,17:46)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">More money for BIS = Better addon management<span id='postcolor'>

For BIS to get more money a certain company would have to stop taking a majority of the profits from BIS's hard work.

[theavonlady 2]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Leone @ April 15 2003,08:46)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">I would of thought the self-interest was obvious. And I think there's a bit of self interest for addon makers too.

Better addon management = More people interested in addons

More people interested in addons = More addons

More addons = Better addons (statistically)

Better addons (statistically) = More people buy OFP

More people buy OFP = More money for BIS

More money for BIS = Better addon management

Everybody wins!    <span id='postcolor'>

No missions=No money.