Re-uploading mods on the workshop

[Rich_R 1087]

26 minutes ago, kremator said:

What pisses me off is that this guy actually says he's using someone's stuff that had been modified.  That, my friend, is you using someone elses work !  How come he doesn't get it ?

 

The funniest part is the continuous phrase, 'I've never stolen anything in my life'.....well if the maker of the mod says you can't use his buildings then obviously you have.

 

To be fair, I switched off the video after the third time he said this, so maybe there was a well-structured defense along the lines of a legendary court battle later in the video. But with what was said in the video and the language of his supporters in the comments section, I highly doubt it.

[semiconductor 309]

4 hours ago, dwarden said:

it would not work, the offender just need take files apart one by one then repack them and your system is in ruins ...

Well, the problem is that the system where offender faces no repercussions for his actions does not work by definition. I know it, you know it and pretty much the whole world knows it, as one wise orange guy have said. The entire human civilization is built upon rules being enforced by negative consequences. Heck, it's the most basic concept that even most of the animals understand. But somehow BI is magically oblivious to it, as if the Czech Republic is actually a completely anarchistic pre-social contract "war of everybody against everybody"-type of society.

 

The current system isn't working by design. You don't punish the thieves, you just clean up the shattered glass, replace the broken locks and then wonder why thieves keep stealing. I mean, come on, even my cat understand this basic stuff by biting me when I do something he doesn't like but somehow when it comes to the mods, we need to have a lengthy discussion stretched over the span of a few years about relative merits of copyright and moral positions of uploaders/modmakes.

 

Just ban the offenders from uploading mods to A3's SW and the problem will be solved. The most effective way to stop the people who deliberately break the rules is to punish them. Don't believe me? Go ask the first policeman you see tomorrow morning, he'll explain you this complex and counterintuitive concept in outmost detail.

[lumnuon 295]

2 hours ago, kremator said:

What pisses me off is that this guy actually says he's using someone's stuff that had been modified.  That, my friend, is you using someone elses work !  How come he doesn't get it ?

 

He is a tool. I had these discussions countless times on the workshop and no matter what you say they won´t get it because they don´t understand the basic concept of IP rights. For the most part they genuinely think that they are not doing anything wrong. That means that you have to convince them that they are doing something wrong in the fist place and if you manage to do that you can try to convince them to act on that realization.

[lumnuon 295]

1 hour ago, semiconductor said:

Well, the problem is that the system where offender faces no repercussions for his actions does not work by definition. I know it, you know it and pretty much the whole world knows it, as one wise orange guy have said. The entire human civilization is built upon rules being enforced by negative consequences. Heck, it's the most basic concept that even most of the animals understand. But somehow BI is magically oblivious to it, as if the Czech Republic is actually a completely anarchistic pre-social contract "war of everybody against everybody"-type of society.

 

The current system isn't working by design. You don't punish the thieves, you just clean up the shattered glass, replace the broken locks and then wonder why thieves keep stealing. I mean, come on, even my cat understand this basic stuff by biting me when I do something he doesn't like but somehow when it comes to the mods, we need to have a lengthy discussion stretched over the span of a few years about relative merits of copyright and moral positions of uploaders/modmakes.

 

Just ban the offenders from uploading mods to A3's SW and the problem will be solved. The most effective way to stop the people who deliberately break the rules is to punish them. Don't believe me? Go ask the first policeman you see tomorrow morning, he'll explain you this complex and counterintuitive concept in outmost detail.

 

I agree 100% on the punishing part but maybe try to keep flame-baiting out of it the next time ;) the mods and Devs are people like you and me and I have no doubt that they do, in fact, care about the addon creators.

[semiconductor 309]

38 minutes ago, lumnuon said:

the mods and Devs are people like you and me and I have no doubt that they do, in fact, care about the addon creators.

The problem is that "caring" itself doesn't solve the problem, an action should be taken and I don't really understand why BI doesn't take it. This topic is being discussed for years already and each time everybody agrees that stealing content is bad and that "something should be done" but nothing comes out of it. Meanwhile the solution is just can't be more obvious. You like what certain person does? You reward them for it. You don't like what certain person does? You punish them for it.

[Macser 776]

Maybe they're concerned about how more aggressive tactics would be received. They are a company. If they go under or take a potential hit in sales it doesn't affect the users much. If modders are in the minority, which I assume they are, picking a clear "side" may backfire economically. If the people concerned with their content being adequately protected are an even smaller sub-set of that minority, that would make it even less appealing.

 

That doesn't make it right. But I don't think the apparent inactivity, is necessarily cynical. Perhaps they have more to lose potentially, by being heavy handed.

 

Prevention could at least curb the activity. Something in that area might be more helpful. But a company actively attacking certain people on behalf of a minority, may be viewed negatively. News and opinions, even ill conceived ones,travel fast.

 

I realise that's not much comfort to an individual that feels let-down. But it must be a factor.

[Auss 208]

Judging by the state of his map and the comments he's left on my you tube I'd say he's perhaps 13-14 yrs old, I guess that may explain his complete lack of understanding in this matter.

[Dwarden 1124]

10 hours ago, semiconductor said:

Well, the problem is that the system where offender faces no repercussions for his actions does not work by definition. I know it, you know it and pretty much the whole world knows it, as one wise orange guy have said. The entire human civilization is built upon rules being enforced by negative consequences. Heck, it's the most basic concept that even most of the animals understand. But somehow BI is magically oblivious to it, as if the Czech Republic is actually a completely anarchistic pre-social contract "war of everybody against everybody"-type of society.

 

The current system isn't working by design. You don't punish the thieves, you just clean up the shattered glass, replace the broken locks and then wonder why thieves keep stealing. I mean, come on, even my cat understand this basic stuff by biting me when I do something he doesn't like but somehow when it comes to the mods, we need to have a lengthy discussion stretched over the span of a few years about relative merits of copyright and moral positions of uploaders/modmakes.

 

Just ban the offenders from uploading mods to A3's SW and the problem will be solved. The most effective way to stop the people who deliberately break the rules is to punish them. Don't believe me? Go ask the first policeman you see tomorrow morning, he'll explain you this complex and counterintuitive concept in outmost detail.

 

you missed the part where i said that the system would not work because you can evade the detection ... 

 

and we punished more thieves than your rant comment has letters but remember "BI is magically oblivious to it ... " meme

 

`Just ban the offenders from uploading mods to A3's SW and the problem will be solved`

another 'solution' which will not work because they will easily create new account and repeat the same approach ...

 

also game developers can't ban users from theirs game workshop either ...

[semiconductor 309]

1 hour ago, dwarden said:

another 'solution' which will not work because they will easily create new account and repeat the same approach

The point is that they'll face the consequences and be made an example of. That's how fines work, that's how penitentiary system works, that's how banning systems of pretty much every internet resource work, including BI Forums.

[Dwarden 1124]

29 minutes ago, semiconductor said:

The point is that they'll face the consequences and be made an example of. That's how fines work, that's how penitentiary system works, that's how banning systems of pretty much every internet resource work, including BI Forums.

 

how you want to make anonymous owner of random STEAM account to face consequences ?

[Tankbuster 1733]

2 minutes ago, dwarden said:

 

how you want to make anonymous owner of random STEAM account to face consequences ?

 

Force them to have a cash sum in their steam account for the account to work and fine them for transgressions.

[semiconductor 309]

2 hours ago, dwarden said:

how you want to make anonymous owner of random STEAM account to face consequences ?

By temporarily or, in case of repeated offenses, indefinitely removing his account's ability to upload mods to A3's SW. He might be anonymous but he still owes the account and will experience a negative consequences of his actions.

[FallujahMedic -FM- 866]

On 20/04/2017 at 8:12 PM, road runner said:

If you're the sort of guy who isn't a BI employee, who trolls through countless addons looking for infringements and content that breaks the steam agreement, I'd be more inclined to say to that person, get a life... preferably not an Altis one!!

Alright, I'll bite. While I wouldn't say I "troll" through addons, I certainly do regular "Keyword" searches. I'm not particularly concerned with people that break the "Steam agreement" (thats up to Valve to police), but those who re-upload others content without permission or who blatantly rip others content (and sometimes call it their own) I am quick to report those types. As others have said, its always occurred and may continue to do so, but that doesn't make it right. Hell, at one point years ago, I though it was ok "for personal use only". Thankfully, time has made me a better and wiser person. If you've ever been pulled over for speeding, you've probably thought or told the cop, "Why didn't you ticket everyone else that was speeding?" and he/she has probably said "Because I only had to stop one to get everyone else to slow down (or something to that effect)."

"The Only Thing Necessary for the Triumph of Evil is that Good Men Do Nothing"

Edited April 22, 2017 by FallujahMedic -FM-
typo

[road runner 4344]

44 minutes ago, FallujahMedic -FM- said:

 If you've ever been pulled over for speeding, you've probably thought or told the cop, "Why didn't you ticket everyone else that was speeding?" and he.she has probably said "Because I only had to stop one to get everyone else to slow down (or something to that effect)."

"The Only Thing Necessary for the Triumph of Evil is that Good Men Do Nothing"

But the very next day, or even minutes later, people will still be speeding and cop will still be issuing tickets, and you will still speed, breaking the law, even at times you don't realise it.

Nothing will have changed, the speeding ticket only makes YOU more cautious, and until everyone who speeds get stopped, they will continue to do so.

[FallujahMedic -FM- 866]

To continue the cop analogy, if it becomes known that a particular area is being watched, most will slow down. But, I'll also admit that people would just find another, less patrolled route. But, that doesn't mean "then why bother enforcing it in the first place." We can't stop every offender, but we can name and shame them and make things a bit more difficult for them.   

[road runner 4344]

2 minutes ago, FallujahMedic -FM- said:

To continue the cop analogy, if it becomes known that a particular area is being watched, most will slow down. But, I'll also admit that people would just find another, less patrolled route. But, that doesn't mean "then why bother enforcing it in the first place." We can't stop every offender, but we can name and shame them and make things a bit more difficult for them.   

Again, naming and shaming only works if they're known in your community mate

[Uro 220]

2 minutes ago, road runner said:

But the very next day, or even minutes later, people will still be speeding and cop will still be issuing tickets, and you will still speed, breaking the law, even at times you don't realise it.

Nothing will have changed, the speeding ticket only makes YOU more cautious, and until everyone who speeds get stopped, they will continue to do so.

 

There is some truth in that analogy,. however the people who witness that person get pulled end up more aware and less blind to their own actions.

 

Seem's BI mass hit on these offending items has brought some people their eyesight back and maybe, just maybe, it will proliferate down the ranks and make more end users aware of what is (and isn't) uploaded to the workshop by the genuine author(s), as well as what is and isn't ripped/stolen content and what they can expect to happen to those workshop submissions in the future that do contain any offending content.

 

It may have irked a lot of people,. but the workshop and the people who frequently upload offending content have needed a kick in the ass for a long time and I say may it long continue.

[FallujahMedic -FM- 866]

27 minutes ago, road runner said:

Again, naming and shaming only works if they're known in your community mate

Quite possibly. But on the same token, I've never been to SE Asia, but I've been told to watch out for lady boys. So, even if you don't hang out in the same circles or play the same game modes or are even of the same age group, there are certain things that are universal. Don't carry drugs in a foreign country (Midnight Express, 1978) and "You fell victim to one of the classic blunders - the most famous of which is "never get involved in a land war in Asia" - but only slightly less well-known is this: "Never go in against a Sicilian when death is on the line"" (Vizzini (Character) from The Princess Bride (1987)). Yes, I'm old. 

The saying here amongst kids is "Chat sh*t, get banged". Whilst the saying I hope gets across is "Steal content / violate IP rights, get banned". Do it enough times and even the people who don't play the game will know about it. 


Note: The Kathoey reference was NOT directed at you. 

Edited April 22, 2017 by FallujahMedic -FM-
Clarification

[Dwarden 1124]

2 hours ago, Tankbuster said:

Force them to have a cash sum in their steam account for the account to work and fine them for transgressions.

 

Valve already tried to fight scam with e.g. accounts with minimal value of games to have certain rights and it didn't changed much 

 

plus those days it's easy to get 'expensive' games via various bundles to reach easily 100+ USD/EUR range and same goes abotu gift sites

 

putting paywall on 'being able use workshop' isn't gunna change anything 

[Dwarden 1124]

2 hours ago, semiconductor said:

By temporarily or, in case of repeated offenses, indefinitely removing his account's ability to upload mods to A3's SW. He might be anonymous but he still owes the account and will experience a negative consequences of his actions.

 

i would like to have such ability for repeated offenders, unfortunately it's not in our powers

[semiconductor 309]

27 minutes ago, dwarden said:

i would like to have such ability for repeated offenders, unfortunately it's not in our powers

Even if there's no way to negotiate with Valve a new functionality for A3 SW, you still have full control over Arma 3 itself. You can just refuse to load the mods uploaded by the banned guy or something along those lines, like those watermarks from DLCs. It's software, not some fundamental law of physics, you can alter and bend it however you like.

[road runner 4344]

I disagree about the impact on those who upload addons without permission, the only people who have been affected by this recent purge was guys who had these maps/addons etc, perhaps unawares they were without permission.

the uploaders haven't been affected other than to have the addon removed.

It hasn't made a single bit of difference to those people who have a disregard for that permission, if anything, all they do is stop making it "public" and only available to "friends" ........so how do you Police that?

If however you knowingly subscribe to an addon that the author has stated on here, it's not to be uploaded, then ban that person from here, don't forget, having a steam account, and a BIS forum account are not related, and many of the steam account users do not frequent here. Some do, but go under different names.. how can you tell?

 

This is my whole point about being omnipresent, it's impossible to police, other than report the item in question and wait for valve to deal with the issue.

I'm not a fan of witch hunts.

[road runner 4344]

6 hours ago, Auss said:

Judging by the state of his map and the comments he's left on my you tube I'd say he's perhaps 13-14 yrs old, I guess that may explain his complete lack of understanding in this matter.

The voice is way too deep for a 13-14 year olds.
He's a tool, but I have to ask the question, the buildings he's talking about, were they custom made by you,without the use of arma assets, or are they available in various packs, as he claims?

[Auss 208]

made by me, there is the tall Arma 2 hotel which I retextured thats also being used, but I'm not worried about that since its an A2 asset.

[Mynock 243]

I have a question of sorts this thread has made me think about. What is the general consensus on "fixing" mods, maps, etc. that clearly are no longer supported by their original creator assuming the fix is done purely to make the mod/map/whatever functional again as Arma is updated? So to word it more directly: only changing what is absolutely necessary to make it functional again and not modifying anything any further than that nor really changing anything. Some examples would be the "black sky fix" after the lighting update, or fixing armor values after that update, things like that where the mod itself isn't really changed, it's simply repaired to get it working as it was previously before a BIS update caused it to no longer function as it did.

 

Assuming all efforts to contact said author for permission have been made without response, could another person perform a fix like this and re-upload it without disdain from the community? Or is the only community approved way to go about it to either leave the mod nonfunctional or make a 100% separate add-on "fix"?

 

For what it's worth, when I leave Arma, I intend to change my wishes for my missions and would open them to community "fixes" assuming the mission design itself is not changed because I won't want to maintain them anymore, but I wouldn't want them to become unplayable for people if BIS did another update that broke them all yet again (this is hypothetical, all my missions are junk anyway lol, but I could see it being beneficial for more "famous" mission makers who depart, fixing long-standing community favorite maps and mods, etc). Because otherwise my only option is to take everything down when I leave; I don't want my email inbox piling up with requests to fix stuff in a game I will have uninstalled.