CaptainAzimuth 714 Posted October 11, 2015 For those of you who don't know what it is... So, NVidia Waveworks. What exactly is it? Time for a little fun discussion. https://youtu.be/iilqtDkeIBE NVIDIA WaveWorks enables developers to deliver a cinematic-quality ocean simulation for interactive applications. The simulation runs in frequency domain using a spectral wave dispersion model. An inverse FFT step then transforms to the spatial domain ready for rendering. Developers can change the parameters to tune the look of the sea surface for a wide variety of conditions – from gentle ripples to a heavy storm-tossed ocean based on the Beaufort scale. But what does this have to do with Arma? We'll get to that in a second. I've come to notice a bunch of games are starting to use Waveworks, and well, it works. It's the most realistic wave simulation available right now, it looks great, or rather authentic, and the functionality is all there. The design capabilities is all there, and could be set for a variety of situations, leaving a specific amount of aspects available for mission designers. Most games make fantastic use of Waveworks. Prime Example. https://youtu.be/eIoucD_Hk3A Now, like Stranded Deep, that's a game built for Waveworks. But what about a game that ha been running it's own ocean rendering system or capabilities? Well, good question. I have the answer. Now, War Thunder is quite an old game, but it's a great one at that, i personally have hundreds maybe even a thousand hours in it. The engine is already fantastic, but now Gaijin has moved to about overhaul their "Dagor Engine" to 4.0. This update also includes NVidia Gameworks, which i assume are a combination of features from Nvidia, including Waveworks. For a game that doesn't really even use the ocean (yet), i think it's an interesting turn of events. Getting closer to the Arma 3 side of things, VBS 3 (I know their different, that's not what this is about) appears to even have used Waveworks in one of it's iterations showing off features for Sea Capabilities, and upgrades that are probably geared to certain buyers of course. https://youtu.be/6gPQ5xv54LU However, what about Arma 3? How would it benefit BI to change to Waveworks? What are the pro's and Con's of using a much more in depth, but still highly configurable ocean-scape. Now my personal opinion, i think it would benefit Arma in a few ways. One being visuals, on the surface, and underwater. Imagine being just deep enough on a diving mission to see the surface during a moderate storm, and watching the waves roll. Or, having the ability to have better Water Wakes for ships and boats, would be a huge improvement over current graphics on that matter. Features, would be better synced, and looking waves as a whole, especially with the new reflection tech coming soon. Cons? Well, the only thing i can see being a con, is just a little configuring of certain sea deploy-able weapon systems needing some kind of stabilization system like they do IRL in order to cope with rough waters. Now of course, i could say if the sea's are too rough, you wouldn't want to put anything out there in the first place. But that's more of a gameplay dynamic than a con. What do you guys think. Should BI, "jump on board"? Why, or Why not. 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
roberthammer 582 Posted October 11, 2015 Well , it could be done but i don't think we will see it in A3 to be honest Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kbbw123 115 Posted October 11, 2015 It looks amazing but I'm not sure if BI wil do it. 1st of the ocean we have around Altis and Stratis is not big enough for these Middle of the ocean storms (The ocean outside the map texture is not included this should be an automatic feature of there terrain builder so its not accounted for.) 2nd Tanoa will have more ocean yes but its an island formation meaning that you won't get those massive waves as island formations will break those kind of waves. so you wouldn't notice anything about them. so you will get nicer wave system yes but you cant enjoy it to the fullest. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
twisted 127 Posted October 11, 2015 with a Pacific island theme it would be a waste for BIS not to implement better water. the ocean is intimately bound with the land mass in tropical areas and with things like typhoons contrasted with crystal clear calm days they'd be missing a huge part of a tropical experience missing out on this opportunity. whether using waterworks or some other solution. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
PuFu 4591 Posted October 11, 2015 "everyone jumping aboard"? nice fucking title. Who uses it, or plans to use it if you don't mind me asking? Everyone? yet another useless thread from your part...this sort of threads where you ask if BI should do it or not...Everyone, and i am sure BI as well, would like to improve and enhance a lot the aspects of their game. Will they do it? Not for this generation of the engine that's certain. why? because why would they spend time on this RV engine (that will be the bone structure of Tanoa update) when Enfusion is around the corner? Please try make and use some common sense from time... Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
chrisb 196 Posted October 11, 2015 World of Warships, perhaps. Not in this series, me thinks. ;) Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
KoalaDSK 122 Posted October 11, 2015 I am glad, darksidesixofficial opened up a forum thread.The technology is great, especially for the strange water behaviour at the shoreline in ARMA 3 at the moment.A week ago I created a ticket (feature request) in the feedback tracker about Nvidia WaveWorks: http://feedback.arma3.com/view.php?id=26035 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Llano 11 Posted October 11, 2015 No they won't and shouldn't. Why? Bewcause it's not worth it. Naval warfare in Arma 3 is close to 0. Barely gets used in multiplayer. Yet another time consuming not-worth-it implementation. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
St. Jimmy 272 Posted October 11, 2015 strange water behaviour at the shoreline in ARMA 3 at the moment. That and the usual visual glitch that many games have where you can see clearly underwater when you're right in the level with water and air. Two actually bad visual problems with the water/ocean in Arma but I don't believe Waveworks is needed to fix those. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
CaptainAzimuth 714 Posted October 11, 2015 "everyone jumping aboard"? nice fucking title. Who uses it, or plans to use it if you don't mind me asking? Everyone? yet another useless thread from your part...this sort of threads where you ask if BI should do it or not...Everyone, and i am sure BI as well, would like to improve and enhance a lot the aspects of their game. Will they do it? Not for this generation of the engine that's certain. why? because why would they spend time on this RV engine (that will be the bone structure of Tanoa update) when Enfusion is around the corner? Please try make and use some common sense from time... Why the negative feels? It's not a useless thread, as i created it because i would like to get the opinion of some others on the matter, regarding a large sum of games moving to next generation water technology, that appears not even to be to complicated to adapt, given NVidia being behind the tech, that of which (if i'm not wrong) sponsors Arma 3 anyway, already with it's Gameworks PhysX system to begin with. Of course, i could argue that BI would have never used SimulWheather TrueSKY, or NVidia PhysX since they've been working on RV4 up into TKOH, but the matter of the fact is, even BI knows when it's worth implementing a huge upgrade to their Engine, using available opportunities. In regards to Wakeworks though, i'm not asking BI weather they should use it. I'm asking the community, and a ye, or ne. I just like to start an interesting convo now and then. Perhaps you should lighten up a bit. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
CaptainAzimuth 714 Posted October 11, 2015 No they won't and shouldn't. Why? Bewcause it's not worth it. Naval warfare in Arma 3 is close to 0. Barely gets used in multiplayer. Yet another time consuming not-worth-it implementation. You'd be correct. Naval Warfare as far as we know, isn't a thing, and has never been for Arma. But when you look at AA titles F2P games like WarThunder making the upgrade from their old water tech, it gets you wondering. They don't have Naval Warfare either. Never did. Planes and Tanks are about it. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
CaptainAzimuth 714 Posted October 11, 2015 That and the usual visual glitch that many games have where you can see clearly underwater when you're right in the level with water and air. Two actually bad visual problems with the water/ocean in Arma but I don't believe Waveworks is needed to fix those. Good points. I believe BI noted sometime in November there would be an update to water, underwater, and lighting. Reflections is the only thing we know about thus far. The rest is unknown. Though, in regards to Coastline water effects, BI has also appeared to have improved that in Tanoa videos. As for some area's by rocks where the water is sort of a weird polygon shape on the terrain, still yet to see if that'll ever be solved. I've seen some interesting water glitches in my time. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
CaptainAzimuth 714 Posted October 11, 2015 It looks amazing but I'm not sure if BI wil do it. 1st of the ocean we have around Altis and Stratis is not big enough for these Middle of the ocean storms (The ocean outside the map texture is not included this should be an automatic feature of there terrain builder so its not accounted for.) 2nd Tanoa will have more ocean yes but its an island formation meaning that you won't get those massive waves as island formations will break those kind of waves. so you wouldn't notice anything about them. so you will get nicer wave system yes but you cant enjoy it to the fullest. Good points. Though even for something along the lines of Tropics, waveworks would be at it's best. In between islands, in bad weather you may just have some heavy waves, nothing too serious, but out from sea, you can expect larger waves to come rolling in, which would be super interesting to see. I really think NVidia should have done a presentation of multiple geography based iterations of Waveworks so we could see more in depth how it interacts with the environment. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
cosmic10r 2320 Posted October 11, 2015 My confidence in nvidia and gameworks was shaken by arkham knight... The smoke rendering halfed the fps and in the cases of the batmobile created horrid stutter Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
froggyluv 2130 Posted October 11, 2015 Why the negative feels? It's not a useless thread.....Perhaps you should lighten up a bit. Wait til he sees your quadruple post :o Just imagine his condemnation in Lord Vaders voice - it's funner. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
CaptainAzimuth 714 Posted October 11, 2015 Wait til he sees your quadruple post :o Just imagine his condemnation in Lord Vaders voice - it's funner. Hehe, yeah. Ever since the Forum Update, I have yet to get used to multi-quoting. XD My confidence in nvidia and gameworks was shaken by arkham knight... The smoke rendering halfed the fps and in the cases of the batmobile created horrid stutter Not about smoke. Rendering like that isn't really for large scale games like Arma. In fact, BI had even improved the smoke themselves, in a micro interactive way. Unlike in Arma 2, Smoke actually moves due to wind from helicopters rotor wash and engine thrust. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Fadi 22 Posted October 11, 2015 I don't think it's really necessary. The small assault boat or the rubber boat are hardly enough to justify it. I could maybe see the point if there were larger ships that could actually be affected by the waves... say, landing a helicopter on top of an LHD rocking in the waves versus what we have right now, landing on an LHD standing perfectly still in the water because it's actually multiple conjoined static objects. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
cosmic10r 2320 Posted October 11, 2015 Hehe, yeah. Ever since the Forum Update, I have yet to get used to multi-quoting. XD Not about smoke. Rendering like that isn't really for large scale games like Arma. In fact, BI had even improved the smoke themselves, in a micro interactive way. Unlike in Arma 2, Smoke actually moves due to wind from helicopters rotor wash and engine thrust. I think my fear is these things work great as tech demos but unfortunately become so resource intensive in an actual demanding game that most people have to turn it off anyways.. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
pulstar 55 Posted October 12, 2015 Nvidia PhysX implementation in Arma speaks volumes that we don't need proprietary GPU technologies. Not Hairworks, not Waveworks.. 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
CaptainAzimuth 714 Posted October 12, 2015 I think my fear is these things work great as tech demos but unfortunately become so resource intensive in an actual demanding game that most people have to turn it off anyways.. Nvidia PhysX implementation in Arma speaks volumes that we don't need proprietary GPU technologies. Not Hairworks, not Waveworks.. Waveworks is CPU, as far as i've heard. Good points, though i'm not sure. I'm waiting for the War Thunder Update so i can actually experience it first hand (I fly close to the water most of the time), so perhaps i'll get some insight on how intensive it is, given War Thunder has massive terrains, in which there is incredible amounts of water on most. I'll do an FPS comparison, now Vs. the update. I don't think it's really necessary. The small assault boat or the rubber boat are hardly enough to justify it. I could maybe see the point if there were larger ships that could actually be affected by the waves... say, landing a helicopter on top of an LHD rocking in the waves versus what we have right now, landing on an LHD standing perfectly still in the water because it's actually multiple conjoined static objects. That's a good point too, but perhaps in an Archipelago setting it would become more important. Having nothing to really obtain a good feeling of or game-play opportunities to experience the tech, does indeed mean that it wouldn't be worth the time to implement. Hence why i think Arma 3's lack of decent water assets, is a disappointment given how they overhauled the water since Arma 2 in the first place. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Von Quest 1161 Posted October 12, 2015 + one million Wow. That's awesome! What was that first vid? Was that a game or just a demo for Waveworks? I'd fork over $200 for a ArmA DLC Naval pack if that's what it looked like. Super cool, man. I'd think we would see that level of detail when we also can have SpinTires mud EFX. Can you imagine? ArmA 5 maybe... ;) Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
CaptainAzimuth 714 Posted October 12, 2015 + one million Wow. That's awesome! What was that first vid? Was that a game or just a demo for Waveworks? I'd fork over $200 for a ArmA DLC Naval pack if that's what it looked like. Super cool, man. I'd think we would see that level of detail when we also can have SpinTires mud EFX. Can you imagine? ArmA 5 maybe... ;) It's a full game that uses Waveworks. BlackWake also uses Waveworks, if you haven't seen that game already. There was this huge outbreak of about every Youtuber playing just about few weeks ago, i didn't pay it much mind, Pirate simulators are not my thing. Things like that of Spintire's ground detail wouldn't fit in with Arma. The driving physics of vehicles already has it's own issues (tracked in particular) that are still to be worked out. Plus stuff like that is far more demanding than Waveworks. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
isuwupkhnk 2 Posted October 15, 2015 Looks cool. It would be nice if they implemented that. What else will Nvidia (and BIS) think of? :) Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mobile_medic 43 Posted October 15, 2015 I'd love to see something like nvidia's grassworks in arma... 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
CaptainAzimuth 714 Posted December 17, 2015 I'd love to see something like nvidia's grassworks in arma... That's irrelevant to the topic really, and it would also murder you're FPS, as one Dev put it awhile ago. Back on topic though, we've finally got some decent footage of above water Waveworks in action, featuring an Amphivious Tank. WAveworks Performance looks great, and the visual fidelity is just brilliant. Looks pretty good, water moves in real time. What do you guys think? 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
