AI Discussion (dev branch)

[froggyluv 2130]

1 hour ago, ayjay said:

Hello joostsidy. Thanks for your reply. I suppose I might be asking the AI to act/react too realistically.  Your point about combat mode. I see them crouching, standing, running around in circles, going prone, standing, going prone,crouching and so on. Why on earth can't they just lie prone which surely is what they would really do? Again sending units to flank the enemy, I can send a squad somewhere on a ' Hold ' waypoint, 10 men. They start taking fire from a concealed enemy and without knowing the enemies strength the squad leader will order 2 troops out of the waypoint area, sending them hundreds of yards forward and largely unsupported to out flank what could be a full company of the enemy finishing up he'll send another 2 or 3 several hundred yards out on the other flank. It's unrealistic and I wouldn't have thought it would take a big leap forward to at least have the option for an AI unit to follow an order and stay put. As for it not being the game for me I think you are probably right and having bought Arma II, Arma II Operation Arrowhead, Arma II Reinforcements, Arma III and Apex I guess I should have learned my lesson but still I don't regret buying any of them. It will happen one day. I'm convinced. I think. 

 

 LOL yeah some of their behaviours just dont make any sense - they seem to just 'wanna move' for no good reason sometimes. The worst to me is when it is your squad against an enemy squad facing each other and a unit will decide to stand up, rotate 180 with his scope raised like a storefront mannequin on wheels -and face the wrong way for combat for some time before deciding to just run left (again for no apparent reason). Excessive arbitrary movements are immersion killers. Obviously I dont expect perfection from game AI and overall Arma is still the best for sandbox, but how hard would it be to keep all guys focused on the known direction of the enemy like I would expect would happen in the real world.

[Vasily.B 529]

1 hour ago, sammael said:

 

 

It is Time to remember the old important bug wih AI

 

So now its time to remember main focus of BI :
https://store.bistudio.com/products/arma3-jets

PS : Forget about bugfixing.

[Alwarren 2765]

1 hour ago, Vasily.B said:

So now its time to remember main focus of BI :
https://store.bistudio.com/products/arma3-jets

PS : Forget about bugfixing.

 

Could you, by any chance, quit whining? That would be awesome.

[Vasily.B 529]

Am i say something wrong/lie? I just say that i see.

[en3x 209]

Yeah you implied that BI don't do QA on their dlcs, which is not true. Case in point their spotrep with lots of fixes.

[Alwarren 2765]

9 hours ago, Vasily.B said:

Am i say something wrong/lie? I just say that i see.

 

It doesn't matter if you are wrong or not. You incessant whining does not do anything but piss people off. If your only contribution to the game is whining that a company wants to make some money after updating the game for four years, you might reconsider this "contribution". 

 

I am not saying everything is fine/peachy in Arma-Land, and I am certainly in favor of constructive criticism, and sometimes a rant is adequate, but even a rant tries to make specific points. You're just broadly bashing everything. It doesn't help, it doesn't get you what you want, it only serves to derail any fruitful discussion.

[jprice94 16]

I note that when I am on my belly and rotate my aim, I will move my arms and mainly my legs to pivot, but the AI, will just slowly pivot on its belly using freakish abdominal strength or something, they don't animate at all, just spin on the spot, and it really triggers my OCD and makes fighting AI actually painful.

[Vasily.B 529]

13 hours ago, Alwarren said:

 

It doesn't matter if you are wrong or not. You incessant whining does not do anything but piss people off. If your only contribution to the game is whining that a company wants to make some money after updating the game for four years, you might reconsider this "contribution". 

 

I am not saying everything is fine/peachy in Arma-Land, and I am certainly in favor of constructive criticism, and sometimes a rant is adequate, but even a rant tries to make specific points. You're just broadly bashing everything. It doesn't help, it doesn't get you what you want, it only serves to derail any fruitful discussion.

But by this "whining" i want to point out there are issues need to be fixed, not since month, since years. If you see tis only as whining (is someone is pointing out issues - that are already reported in feedback tracker) then you should look at Call to Arms thread in Steam, or look on arma troubleshoting also on Steam, then tell me i'm whining, same as around tousand peoples. What about AI driving? They was close to finish this, but for some reason Jets DLC become more important. Same with Visual Upgrade. There are more bugs introduced than features. I would not "whine" if this woould be worse before this "fixing" process, but i payed for working game, now all reasons of "whining" is that those functions are not working (and they were before). But i self-moderate this as ending chit-chat.

[froggyluv 2130]

 

 Probably because your post didnt have any feedback but was more a snarky swipe at BI 'not caring about bugs' and then giving the Jets link. Tho I share some similar views in terms of direction, that's not really pointing out bugs.

[Alwarren 2765]

 

1 hour ago, Vasily.B said:

Same with Visual Upgrade. There are more bugs introduced than features.

 

See, that is the type of hyperbole that makes it whining. "More bugs than features". You're just pulling that out of thin air. See, I have made my rant posts as well. But when I rant I rant about something specific. I don't come up with "Bah DLC is more important". I say "THIS is a problem and needs fixing". Maybe you should try the same instead.

 

1 hour ago, Vasily.B said:

 But i self-moderate this as ending chit-chat.

 

Right, until the next whine.

 

[Vasily.B 529]

Its already reported all detailed and since year(s) its quiet. There is place for such hiperbole - it appeared since this years. I ended it and you continue. Sorry Alwarren, but all i sayed are hard facts. I'm not developer, i'm not paid for fixing game, hell i payed for this game, why should i fix it?

[R0adki11 3945]

On 2017-5-22 at 3:50 PM, Vasily.B said:

Its already reported all detailed and since year(s) its quiet. There is place for such hiperbole - it appeared since this years. I ended it and you continue. Sorry Alwarren, but all i sayed are hard facts. I'm not developer, i'm not paid for fixing game, hell i payed for this game, why should i fix it?

Can we try to stay on topic, you of all people should understand the forum rules by now. 

[road runner 4344]

For someone who has said on countless occasions he's uninstalled the game, and in another thread hasn't played it for 5 months now, sure seems up to speed on all the bugs and things that hasn't been fixed...

Pinocchio wants his tin of lies back !! ;)

[The Man Without Qualities 110]

It is the old game. Alwarren kinda fanboys play the selfproclaimed defenders of BIS and even pretend to speak in their behalf.

Next level of fanboyism you can watch at youtube when Erdogan fanboys beat up anti-Erdogan protestors.

@road runner one needs just OFP:Resistance played 100 hours and A3 played 100 hours to see that major issues still remain.

I also stayed away from Arma series for months to give it another try, but to find old bugs and new bugs of the same kind.

As long as BIS does not develop a better solution then HC to deal with masses of AI at server side we wont see a major improvement.

Even if some routines are not bad, if server FPS decrease down to <20 all AI become retards.

[road runner 4344]

I think you've missed a lot of points there sir, nobody's saying the AI's perfect, don't seem to recall Alwarren state differently either, it's Vasily.B's constant regurgitation of the same things over and over, where he basically slanders BI Devs, complains about every update, not forgetting he's been banned before, claims he's not played the game for months, or uninstalled it, but is acutely aware of all the current issues... unless you're bullshitting about the layoff time. It's Hyperbole at its finest.

I agree with many of the things Vasily comes up with, I just don't like the manner in which he does it.

When AI are able to climb ladders, and not walk off rooftops after a helo insertion, I will congratulate BI on fixing one of my major bug bears. Till then, like the vast majority, I'll put up with the AI, and their retardedness, as I've personally had my moneys worth, several times over in the past couple of years since I switched to A3 from A2.

[Alwarren 2765]

6 hours ago, The Man Without Qualities said:

It is the old game. Alwarren kinda fanboys play the selfproclaimed defenders of BIS and even pretend to speak in their behalf.

 

ROFL this is the first time I was called a fanboy. I usually get called a hater, and if you go and check my posts you will find a lot of them where I got flak for saying something bad about the game. Ask oukej about me and the Nexus update.

 

I also did not pretend to speak on behalf of anyone but myself, thank you.

 

The point you and people like you seem to miss is that, as I pointed out earlier, you have two options - try to work with what is there, or just spent all your time whining and bitching about it. I chose the former. I am not even saying that Vasily is wrong with some of his assessments, as I said, it doesn't matter. You either try to be constructive, or just go bitch. 

 

There are a lot of things in Arma that drive me up the wall. For example, the helicopter AI is always flaring up sky-high when they want to land, making it an easy target for AA. Yeah, I want that changed. Do I get this changed by this:

 

"The helicopter AI should really start slowing down earlier so that they can avoid flaring up and getting shot down by AA"

 

or

 

"OMG THIS GAME SUX I PAID MONEY FOR IT FIX IT ALREADY AND DON'T CONCENTRATE ON DLC U SUK"

 

Well maybe the answer is "neither", but in any case, if I go for the first option, I will not come across as a complete asshole. 

So go ahead, take your pick. I make mine. If that makes me a fanboy, honestly, I don't give an excrement.

 

And on topic:

The helicopter pilots should really start to slow down earlier, even when they have a land waypoint they usually flare up way too high. It makes stealth insertions near enemy positions virtually impossible, especially if they should be keeping low for terrain masking, an issue that will become more pressing now with the Sensor updates.

 

Alternatively, the UnitRecord/UnitPlayback should be fixed so that it works on dedicated servers.

[The Man Without Qualities 110]

Expectation management.

Some have the optinion that for the cash paid they got more then nuff, some took every hyper-super advertisment bla-bla of BIS serious and stick to the promised made.

While I know that BIS won't come even close to that what they promised, I am a fanboy of forcing business partner to keep their promise. A tiny business, but still.

In the end I keep on buying almost every crap BIS is releasing in the ArmA series hoping that cash and a good CTO will meet in a lucky moment at BIS.

The Spanels did a 1st brillint shot with OFP, since then it is.....

Nevertheless, they kept on promising "military simulations" and "massive battles".

In my world we talking about hundreds of soldiers in a dense scenario. BIS promised that also for SP means tons of AI. They promised that not only for infantry, also for land/air/sea.

So I will keep on measuring everything against my personal favorite scenario: close to 1k AI in a CTI mission in a battle 500 vs 500; 2 fully scripted AI factions where I could snap in as ordinary soldier or as the maximo leader.

 

To your heli-issue: my annual salary vs your old shoes that a BIS dev can fix it within 1 day including testing. They must have also nuff cash when I see for what useless things they spend dev time without cashing it.

It is simply not on their priority list. And now it comes:

 

ONLY PROPER BITCHING AND WHINING MOVES BIS!

 

Sorry, but it is like it is, even works better then a ticket in their bug tracker. Unfortunately.

[Vasily.B 529]

Well i installed game since 5 months now, and after testing few things i can uninstall it, as i see no improvements in most painfull areas. To be more in topic - in AI areas.
- They still can use AT launcher through smoke on you, attack helis are fleeing - hover in one place and waiting till someone destroy them, AI infantry still sees through destroyed objects, vegetation, etc, my Ai buddies cannot rearm, does not heal themselves in "aware" after firefight. 

I'm not hater, i wouldnt be back here if i would hate this game, but seriosuly, if not people like me "whining" about this bugs, then who will show this bugs are frustrating for players? Alwarren who keeps saying everything is OK, or RoadRunner, who kepps saying and laughing if anyone shows his frustration about bugs? Man, dont you understand, Developers are reading those threads sometimes, if they see "everything is ok, i love last changes", "people, dont read this whining of this man, he is paranoic" - you think they ever gonna note those bugs? Check forums of other games, Steam discussions, and look how development of other games look like, specially those, which started in Early Alpha.

[en3x 209]

28 minutes ago, Vasily.B said:

Developers are reading those threads sometimes, if they see "everything is ok, i love last changes", "people, dont read this whining of this man, he is paranoic" - you think they ever gonna note those bugs?

 

Yo should realize that developers are grown up men with lots of experience with building game, talking to Quality assurance people on daily basis so they know about the problems.

Saying that they need someone like you telling that is slightly childish.

[sammael 366]

 

There are serious bugs that have not been reacted for years. I would understand if the developers said, we will investigate the reason, fox  example like  3 fpsBug.

I understand the complexity of the development and appreciate the honest answers.But the developers totally ignore some Huge BUGs. For example - Because of this bug, the helicopters in arma 3 lost all meaning to me. Every 4-5 month I start to spam forums about this bug -but no reactions

Spoiler

 

 

 

[Vasily.B 529]

 

en3x

I just sayed not only me, but there need to be people that are reminding about those issues.

[en3x 209]

I support constructive criticism of longstanding issues. Especially when is conveyed without insults, belittling and frustration.

[Antilochos 106]

We are complaining against each other if it's okay or not to complain on these forums about the game.

 

Well, I think nobody likes this complaining and I believe you can easily reduce it; if BI only communicate a bit more often en direct on the most common issues, let people know that they are aware of the problems and if they are working on them, planning to work on them or will not work on them ("no" can also be an answer).

I know they sometimes do, but would it hurt to do it a bit more often and more specific? It at least will help with the frustration some players starting to have (and maybe prevent these discussions between players on forums about complaining, not even a concrete problem).

[froggyluv 2130]

 

 100% athena^

 

 Although they do answer some longstanding questions on AI it  undoubtley feels like their least favorite conversation piece and leaves alot of us longtime SP fans wanting more -alot more. Look at the idea-rich back and forth's in the many stickied Jet threads beteen Dev and gamer or the Audio Dev thread -why cant we have the same in the AI? You never get the sense their is a dedicated AI guy or team that is excited to reveal some awesome new direction or feature that they've been cooking in their kitchen -feels more like they are relieved that the AI were able to keep up at bare minimum for other expanding features of the game ie FFV, flying VTOL whatever.

 

 As others have stated, this all starts from the highest office down. They've got to WANT an ambitious AI crew that want to expand the game else the AI guys creativity will be dampened and we will get no new actions , flight models, infantry behavior, etc as well as these light pulsed AI progress reports. If you look through the changelogs in past few years -there are a significant amount of AI changes - but none of them rival the feature expansions or upgrades of the rest of the game. Leaving us here in this lonely thread to argue amidst breadcrumbs..

 

Solution is to unshackle the AI team and/or add fresh blood -plenty of guys doing neat AI things in the forums that would love to have access to the engine level code ;) *masochism required*

[The Man Without Qualities 110]

6 hours ago, en3x said:

 

Yo should realize that developers are grown up men with lots of experience with building game, talking to Quality assurance people on daily basis so they know about the problems.

Saying that they need someone like you telling that is slightly childish.

i was laughing my ass off reading this! You are not talking about BIS quality assurance, right?

The first real bug tracker was set up and maintained by the community before BIS started this half maintained thingy we have right now?

 

You are not talking about those bugs one could find after 5 minutes hipshot testing but finding their way into major releases on regular basis?

5 hours ago, en3x said:

I support constructive criticism of longstanding issues. Especially when is conveyed without insults, belittling and frustration.

Well bitching goes against fanboys defending BIS with crazy arguments, not so much against BIS.

Usually BIS is not involved into such thread-destroyers like this here.

 

5 hours ago, athena_promachos said:

We are complaining against each other if it's okay or not to complain on these forums about the game.

 

Well, I think nobody likes this complaining and I believe you can easily reduce it; if BI only communicate a bit more often en direct on the most common issues, let people know that they are aware of the problems and if they are working on them, planning to work on them or will not work on them ("no" can also be an answer).

I know they sometimes do, but would it hurt to do it a bit more often and more specific? It at least will help with the frustration some players starting to have (and maybe prevent these discussions between players on forums about complaining, not even a concrete problem).

That's it, the proper place to bug discussion is the bugtracker, but since there is no proper manager/moderator asigning tickets, merging them into collector-tickets if they deal with the same issue, but leaving many tickets untouched....

In an older bugtracker there was a voting about most burning bugs/issues. The Top 5 were never really touched, but we got tons of DLC instead.

Coming to the specific AI thingy: lots of crazy stuff could have been ironed out years ago, it wasn't because BIS simply don't care. I just mention the stupid AI bail-out when tank reaches certain damage.