Controls Scheme & User Interface Feedback

[dmarkwick 261]

Wait, so we take the mechanics of auto-toggle via unit selection F1-F12 keys, map the number 0-9 row keys to weapons selection, then create a rose-radial wheel, place Actions onto it, then make it toggle via the same F1-F12 keys to switch to AI commands on the same rose wheel? I like it. :D Convoluted, but nice.

Well, it wouldn't be the same rose wheel, I would use one design for personal action commands and another design for command commands. Similar in look, but distinctive enough for you to know what exactly is going on. But that's a design problem not a paradigm problem :)

Let's take AI command out of the question for a second: A single player, standing in-game, no other units present - he must be able to flawlessly perform two vital functions: 1) Organise and effectively use his equipment/weapons; 2) Interact with himself (ooh) and the world via Actions.

No reason that it all can't happen on the same GUI. Personal actions and weapon selection all on the same rose? Think slightly less rose-ish, we use a rose for personal actions, and a set of buttons above that represent your proposed 1-4/1-9 weapon selection keys. It can all be done from the rose hotkey, and we don't lose the current system.

If we add AI units to his squad we get "advanced" feature of the game: 3) AI command.

Precisely :)

Twelve is too many to make text readable in my opinion, besides you wanted to have a uniform, consolidated interface yourself. :)

Whether the text is readable or not would be down to design IMO.

I'd rather have a coherent interface out the box: 0-9 for weapons selection, unit keys toggle this to command mode and a separate radial Action and/or AI command wheel.

Well, we all would but I think we can agree that it's most likely not going to happen :)

[Iroquois Pliskin 0]

Well, it wouldn't be the same rose wheel, I would use one design for personal action commands and another design for command commands. Similar in look, but distinctive enough for you to know what exactly is going on. But that's a design problem not a paradigm problem :)

What happens if I have an Action rose open and select a unit? Does the menu collapse, switch over to AI command rose?

No reason that it all can't happen on the same GUI. Personal actions and weapon selection all on the same rose? Think slightly less rose-ish, we use a rose for personal actions, and a set of buttons above that represent your proposed 1-4/1-9 weapon selection keys. It can all be done from the rose hotkey, and we don't lose the current system.

Weapon selection is distinctly separate thing, which should be done only on the number row keys and it has nothing to do with radial menu, I thought I was clear on that. Rose is for all Actions (personal, self-action, interaction with doors, ladders - anything that the world has).

That's the premise of this thread: removing weaponry from the scroll list and relocating them to dedicated number keys as industry's standard, thus freeing up the scroll list and being able to revamp it further into something like a rose menu. See Weapons-Command problem 1.

Whether the text is readable or not would be down to design IMO.

True, can't judge the feasibility, till you've personally experienced it in this case.

Well, we all would but I think we can agree that it's most likely not going to happen :)

Weapon selection on 0-9 not feasible? Are we going to be left with the same crap menu, which takes up TEN of my keys, when I don't have an AI squad under my command? I'm dissapoint. :(

[dmarkwick 261]

What happens if I have an Action rose open and select a unit? Does the menu collapse, switch over to AI command rose?

Pragmatically, you'd need to take your finger off the rose GUI hotkey to do this, and that would auto-cancel whatever you had going on at that time. Aside from that, if you somehow managed to select a unit without cancelling the action rose, then the action rose retains authority until it is finished.

Weapon selection is distinctly separate thing, which should be done only on the number row keys and it has nothing to do with radial menu, I thought I was clear on that. Rose is for all Actions (personal, self-action, interaction with doors, ladders - anything that the world has).

I can't see any real reason for this arbitrary restriction.

That's the premise of this thread: removing weaponry from the scroll list and relocating them to dedicated number keys as industry's standard, thus freeing up the scroll list and being able to revamp it further into something like a rose menu. See Weapons-Command problem 1.

Well, with respect, the premise of this thread is UI feedback, not how to implement Iroquois Pliskin's ideas :)

Weapon selection on 0-9 not feasible? Are we going to be left with the same crap menu, which takes up TEN of my keys, when I don't have an AI squad under my command? I'm dissapoint. :(

Same "crap menu" should remain for the GUI switchover duration IMO :)

Edited August 26, 2012 by DMarkwick

[Iroquois Pliskin 0]

I can't see any real reason for this arbitrary restriction.

You'd rather perform three actions instead of one to select a weapon in the heat of the battle? :) Open rose menu -> mouse over -> click, or maybe even go through some "directories" first vs. one key press. I know which I'd pick.

Well, with respect, the premise of this thread is UI feedback, not how to implement Iroquois Pliskin's ideas :)

Really? So the weapons/gadget selection via the antiquated scroll list and grenades on the F key is not the most pressing problem? Let's be objective here and say that AI command rose menu isn't the top priority, basic gameplay is.

Same "crap menu" should remain for the GUI switchover duration IMO :)

As long as weapons are given default key priority to the "crap command menu", if no units are selected!

[dmarkwick 261]

You'd rather perform three actions instead of one to select a weapon in the heat of the battle? :) Open rose menu -> mouse over -> click, or maybe even go through some "directories" first vs. one key press. I know which I'd pick.

Horses for courses. I'd say that any method where my hands stayed in their gameplay position AND I didn't need to look down to the keyboard would be advantageous to me.

Really? So the weapons/gadget selection via the antiquated scroll list and grenades on the F key is not the most pressing problem? Let's be objective here and say that AI command rose menu isn't the top priority, basic gameplay is.

But you're suggesting there's only one, single solution that makes sense. I'm suggesting one that also makes as much sense, but allows the retention of the old system.

As long as weapons are given default key priority to the "crap command menu", if no units are selected!

I'd be cool with that.

[Iroquois Pliskin 0]

Horses for courses. I'd say that any method where my hands stayed in their gameplay position AND I didn't need to look down to the keyboard would be advantageous to me.

But to be objective you need to select the most optimum configuration, knowing that there won't be any duplication of systems, with BIS being a small company and all.

But you're suggesting there's only one, single solution that makes sense. I'm suggesting one that also makes as much sense, but allows the retention of the old system.

So the rest of the industry has it wrong since 1996? The only reason you don't have weapon selection on number row is due to the AI command menu, which is useless in PVP, online Co-Op, Solo missions.

I'd be cool with that.

Now we have to wait for Christmas. :)

[HKFlash 9]

So the rest of the industry has it wrong since 1996? The only reason you don't have weapon selection on number row is due to the AI command menu, which is useless in PVP, online Co-Op, Solo missions.

Also useless when you are not commanding a squad (AI is commanding).

[Iroquois Pliskin 0]

Also useless when you are not commanding a squad (AI is commanding).

True. By the way, to the opponents of weapon/gadget quick-swap via 0-9 number row keys, saying that implementing this will turn ArmA into an "arcade": there's a reason why tactical vests were developed, so that you wouldn't have to shuffle through the grocery bag, which is the scroll list!

BrHptICpa7M

CQB dynamics would change, in certain cases on the field the range of engagements would increase, because you wouldn't want the enemy to close in on you to utilise his gear effectively up-close, be it grenades, anti-personnel RPGs, or secondary firearms.

Edited August 26, 2012 by Iroquois Pliskin
Better vest demo

[dmarkwick 261]

But to be objective you need to select the most optimum configuration, knowing that there won't be any duplication of systems, with BIS being a small company and all.

Well, IMO the most optimum configuration IS my suggested one, so I can agree with you :) and the duplication - is just an added bonus so that established OFP vets still have the system they're used to and like.

So the rest of the industry has it wrong since 1996?

I thought we were looking for innovation :) I wouldn't like to slavishly advocate a system because every other game has it. I still don't like to have to take my hands away from my gaming position and also have to look down to the keyboard. If there's a better system, let's winkle it out.

The only reason you don't have weapon selection on number row is due to the AI command menu, which is useless in PVP, online Co-Op, Solo missions.

Perhaps. But it's not useless in most other situations. We've got to initially cater to everyone remember not just the pvps.

[Iroquois Pliskin 0]

Well, IMO the most optimum configuration IS my suggested one, so I can agree with you :) and the duplication - is just an added bonus so that established OFP vets still have the system they're used to and like.

I thought we were looking for innovation :) I wouldn't like to slavishly advocate a system because every other game has it. I still don't like to have to take my hands away from my gaming position and also have to look down to the keyboard. If there's a better system, let's winkle it out.

You don't have to look at the keyboard with the number row keys, and I'm not here to invent the bicycle, but if we're going to see scroll lists in PvP again, you'll see empty servers.

[dmarkwick 261]

You don't have to look at the keyboard with the number row keys, and I'm not here to invent the bicycle, but if we're going to see scroll lists in PvP again, you'll see empty servers.

Well, I think that's a little dramatic :) we don't see empty servers now. People generally adapt to games if they need to, there's not a fundamental rule about GUI setups, even if most other games do adhere to it. But, I fear that the old system will most probably prevail, if something else happens then I'll be happy :)

[Iroquois Pliskin 0]

Well, I think that's a little dramatic :) we don't see empty servers now. People generally adapt to games if they need to, there's not a fundamental rule about GUI setups, even if most other games do adhere to it. But, I fear that the old system will most probably prevail, if something else happens then I'll be happy :)

Even if everything remains the way it currently is, I, and many other enthusiasts will stay no matter what, but why not bank on the publicity generated by DayZ?

http://arma2.swec.se/server/list

For you see, DayZ is popular currently due to novelty and most people playing that are not prior ArmA players, otherwise why didn't we have 100 full 64 player TvT/Warfare servers running a year ago? They may like DayZ, but if you point them to ArmA II, they will not adapt to the clunky-ness in a competitive environment, where you have to fight.

By the way, BF BC2, and BF 3 presumably, have the under barrel grenade launchers mapped to number 3 key - works quite well. In ArmA, I was always forced to have my primary weapon set to either Burst or Full in order to access the M203/GP-25 with the F key in a manner, which wouldn't see me dead due the mechanic being so slow and clumsy - oftentimes, I'd accidentally skip the grenade launcher and then you'd have to go through it again -> Grenades -> Smoke grenades -> Satchels -> Semi/single -> Burst/full -> M203/GP-25.

Edited August 26, 2012 by Iroquois Pliskin

[4 IN 1 0]

FPDR

I never find 1-0 key to be good design for weapon selection. It never work for those one man armoury games, nor it work well for realistic ones (having to take your hands away from major controls to switch weapons, even if it is just 1 row above means life and death.), besides, you already have sidearm transition key map to toggle between main and sidearm, why do you still need to reinventing the wheels? I'd rather have the weapon selection stick with rose menus and gives me both controls and visual representation at the same place rather then having to split focus on different place.

[-FHA-Dynamo 0]

wow, just wow...

so you guys don't like the idea of tapping 1-5 keys to switch gear due to taking your fingers off your movement keys, but are perfectly fine doing so with the lean keys (which means you can't move left when leaning left, and right when leaning right) and the secondary weapon swap key ( ' )... which is on the other side of the keyboard... no one is trying to reinvent the wheel, just trying to make it roll smoother. using a different system/method just for the sake of it being different, doesn't mean it's better than a more common system.

there is a reason why popular FPS games use the number keys.. it's fast, and not cumbersome.not just because it's on the number keys, but more so because you only really have at most 5-6 items to swap to. unlike the command menu where you use 1-0+ backspace. i play a lot of mixed PVP games that also has AI elements to it, and also PVPs where i command other players. using the number keys to give out orders is a real pain in the ass.. i literally have to find cover and hide before addressing commands.. it's really frustrating, especially when you press the wrong number then have to backspace back to where you need to be to get to the command you need. removing the command AND action menu from the number row and scroll wheel, and putting them into a radial center screen menu, will make the task of cycling through the different commands and actions so much faster and more accurate. the radial menu can have custom opacity so that you can still see whats going on ahead of you, instead of either looking down at the number row, or over to the right edge of your screen for the action menu. it's all about streamlining the game so the player can concentrate on playing the game and not fighting the controls.

it's great that they added dynamic lean (hold control and move mouse in the direction you want to lean), thats freaking awesome! and a nice leap forward for this series. now they just need to add dynamic speed control through mouse wheel (with normal key binds as backup of course), and remove the command/action menu from the keyboard and mouse into a single more intuitive radial menu. let us play the game, not struggle with it's systems that should be there to help us enjoy our time while playing.

also, Iroquois Pliskin im totally going to rip this quote from you. :cool:

"there's a reason why tactical vests were developed, so that you wouldn't have to shuffle through the grocery bag, which is the scroll list!" thats going to be my new sig

Edited August 27, 2012 by [FHA]Dynamo

[rye1 21]

Dynamo;2214583']

"there's a reason why tactical vests were developed' date=' so that you wouldn't have to shuffle through the grocery bag, which is the scroll list!" thats going to be my new sig[/quote']

Mag dump pouch, anyone? :p (Twas a joke!)

[HKFlash 9]

I never find 1-0 key to be good design for weapon selection.

MADNESS!

[4 IN 1 0]

Atless the main<>secondary transition key is mapable :p

So shut up fools.

MADNESS!

Madness? Are you sure?

Edited August 27, 2012 by 4 IN 1

[dmarkwick 261]

Dynamo;2214583']wow' date=' just wow...

so you guys don't like the idea of tapping 1-5 keys to switch gear due to taking your fingers off your movement keys, but are perfectly fine doing so with the lean keys (which means you can't move left when leaning left, and right when leaning right) and the secondary weapon swap key ( ' )... which is on the other side of the keyboard... no one is trying to reinvent the wheel, just trying to make it roll smoother. using a different system/method just for the sake of it being different, doesn't mean it's better than a more common system.

there is a reason why popular FPS games use the number keys.. it's fast, and not cumbersome.not just because it's on the number keys, but more so because you only really have at most 5-6 items to swap to. unlike the command menu where you use 1-0+ backspace. i play a lot of mixed PVP games that also has AI elements to it, and also PVPs where i command other players. using the number keys to give out orders is a real pain in the ass.. i literally have to find cover and hide before addressing commands.. it's really frustrating, especially when you press the wrong number then have to backspace back to where you need to be to get to the command you need. removing the command AND action menu from the number row and scroll wheel, and putting them into a radial center screen menu, will make the task of cycling through the different commands and actions so much faster and more accurate. the radial menu can have custom opacity so that you can still see whats going on ahead of you, instead of either looking down at the number row, or over to the right edge of your screen for the action menu. it's all about streamlining the game so the player can concentrate on playing the game and not fighting the controls.

it's great that they added dynamic lean (hold control and move mouse in the direction you want to lean), thats freaking awesome! and a nice leap forward for this series. now they just need to add dynamic speed control through mouse wheel (with normal key binds as backup of course), and remove the command/action menu from the keyboard and mouse into a single more intuitive radial menu. let us play the game, not struggle with it's systems that should be there to help us enjoy our time while playing.

also, Iroquois Pliskin im totally going to rip this quote from you. :cool:

"there's a reason why tactical vests were developed, so that you wouldn't have to shuffle through the grocery bag, which is the scroll list!" thats going to be my new sig[/quote']

Oof. So many assumptions & assertions. Let me do you a favour and just....

it's all about streamlining the game so the player can concentrate on playing the game and not fighting the controls.

whew, something we can agree on.

But I would say that slavishly copying every other game just because every other game uses it... doesn't make much sense to me. Some, but not to the extent that I'd be terrified of not using it. To address your concern that I'd be happy to not use the number keys for weapons (which I think could be done if no units selected...) because it's so easy and in any case I sometimes use some other keys... I can't imagine it being much easier than pressing a hotkey and selecting from the onscreen GUI with a mouse. No need for me to be a piano player in that case :) Let me focus on something you wrote:

i literally have to find cover and hide before addressing commands.

Umm, I cannot possibly sympathise with you here. I would expect that the very least you do is make sure you are in cover before making a complex command, whatever the system. Sometimes you need to be not quite in cover in order to more efficiently give a command (by pointing at an object or position for example) and in those cases maybe the old system (where you can still move around) is appropriate. It's this sort of system that makes the ArmA series unique among other FPS shooters.

[NoRailgunner 0]

Which interface/GUI is userfriendly without beeing oversimplified - not cluttering the screen with consolish interface/symbols and signs? Which actions/commands are most used as regular grunt, which as team/squadleader and which of them don't need a visual feedback? What can a player remember + use with and without ingame tutorial/training missions?

[4 IN 1 0]

That is the thing that really need some research to find out.

First you have to find out which part of the monitor a people would focus on while engaged in a fire fight, then you have to figure out how much effort one have to move focus on other thngs then back onto the most important things one would normally focus on. Then with those results, design a UI that important task other then fighting would occupy the less important place that are still easy to switch between with.

[Iroquois Pliskin 0]

FPDR

I never find 1-0 key to be good design for weapon selection. It never work for those one man armoury games, nor it work well for realistic ones (having to take your hands away from major controls to switch weapons, even if it is just 1 row above means life and death.), besides, you already have sidearm transition key map to toggle between main and sidearm, why do you still need to reinventing the wheels? I'd rather have the weapon selection stick with rose menus and gives me both controls and visual representation at the same place rather then having to split focus on different place.

Here we go again: simply compelling arguments, scroll lists for the win et cetera, et cetera.

Have you ever played the Classics? Taking fingers off WSAD was never an option that's why Quake(s) are still as competitive as they were 15 years ago: whenever you're using the 0-9 number row keys to select weaponry, there's at least 3 of your fingers present on WSAD, if you're reaching for number 3 key, you're still in full control of WSA, right strafe - D key is "unavailable" for a few milliseconds, while you tap the weapon selection key mere millimetres away! I'm dissapoint. :(

I don't think you know what reinventing the wheel would be in this case - it certainly isn't the number row weapons selection, but do provide an alternative to the following: "skipping the grenade launcher by accident and then you'd have to go through it again -> Grenades -> Smoke grenades -> Satchels -> Semi/single -> Burst/full -> M203/GP-25."

There's no argument against. Try again.

Edited August 27, 2012 by Iroquois Pliskin

[dmarkwick 261]

Here we go again: simply compelling arguments, scroll lists for the win et cetera, et cetera.

Well it was a little unclear, but I read it as "rose" not "scroll wheel".

Have you ever played the Classics? Taking fingers off WSAD was never an option that's why Quake(s) are still as competitive as they were 15 years ago: whenever you're using the 0-9 number row keys to select weaponry, there's at least 3 of your fingers present on WSAD, if you're reaching for number 3 key, you're still in full control of WSA, right strafe - D key is "unavailable" for a few milliseconds, while you tap the weapon selection key mere millimetres away! I'm dissapoint. :(

Using the number keys was always fiddly for me. I can use WASDZXCFGR + the shift & ctrl combos etc all well & good, but the number keys still give me slight problems. If I can press a single key (or single combo) & get that weapon selection up on the screen & select with a mouse, I think that would be preferable to using "classics" style number keys. I just don't believe that because the "classics" use it it should ALWAYS be used. If a process can be taken off the keyboard, AND made quicker, AND made more intuitive, I say it should be seriously considered.

I don't think you know what reinventing the wheel would be in this case - it certainly isn't the number row weapons selection, but do provide an alternative to the following: "skipping the grenade launcher by accident and then you'd have to go through it again -> Grenades -> Smoke grenades -> Satchels -> Semi/single -> Burst/full -> M203/GP-25."

I agree.

[Iroquois Pliskin 0]

But I would say that slavishly copying every other game just because every other game uses it... doesn't make much sense to me. Some, but not to the extent that I'd be terrified of not using it. To address your concern that I'd be happy to not use the number keys for weapons (which I think could be done if no units selected...) because it's so easy and in any case I sometimes use some other keys... I can't imagine it being much easier than pressing a hotkey and selecting from the onscreen GUI with a mouse. No need for me to be a piano player in that case :)

I don't care and am impartial to whatever solutions you guys come up with, but do solve the following:

"Skipping the grenade launcher by accident and then you'd have to go through it again -> Grenades -> Smoke grenades -> Satchels -> Semi/single -> Burst/full -> M203/GP-25."

I'm betting there's going to be wheel reinvention much like the same way BIS had done with the scroll lists and F key due to silly AI command menu taking up 10 of my keys.

---------- Post added at 10:14 ---------- Previous post was at 10:11 ----------

I agree.

If you agree, then I can conjure up a layout that will work 100 out of 100 times, but keep up the hysteria peeps. :p

---------- Post added at 10:17 ---------- Previous post was at 10:14 ----------

Well it was a little unclear, but I read it as "rose" not "scroll wheel".

So you want to place weaponry on the rose wheel, which 1) obstructs view in some way; 2) disengages controls COMPLETELY; 3) needs three times as many actions to accomplish the same thing what a single number row key would have done.

This is the definition of wheel re-invention. (Pun intended, ROFL :icon_mrgreen:)

---------- Post added at 10:21 ---------- Previous post was at 10:17 ----------

Using the number keys was always fiddly for me. I can use WASDZXCFGR + the shift & ctrl combos etc all well & good, but the number keys still give me slight problems. If I can press a single key (or single combo) & get that weapon selection up on the screen & select with a mouse, I think that would be preferable to using "classics" style number keys. I just don't believe that because the "classics" use it it should ALWAYS be used. If a process can be taken off the keyboard, AND made quicker, AND made more intuitive, I say it should be seriously considered.

Why would you take it off the keyboard, which has 103 plus keys and load the mouse with redundant functions? I don't think you fully understand the value of the number row keys in FPS.

---------- Post added at 10:23 ---------- Previous post was at 10:21 ----------

So to summarise: 1) You have one person insisting for weaponry selection to be on a radial wheel with mouse selection; 2) One person with demagogic arguments, who is completely satisfied with scroll lists; 3) A group of sane people, who would be comfortable with number row keys, seeing as they are the only logical option.

Splendid.

[rye1 21]

How would people want flashlight, laser and other non-combat attachments to be operated? The same button: L.

[Guess Who 10]

If you ask me, and I'm well aware you don't, weapon selection with a menu of any kind ain't doing it. Imho the "dedicated key" per weapon category is the only "clean" solution. Doesn't have to be the number keys! Dedicated is the "keyword" here and "category". And of course they have to be kept rebindable (is that even a word?).

Not one of the so called solutions presented here or the other thread are more useable, easier and/or less complex. Any more proposals?