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-Coulum-

Aiming Accuracy in Arma 3

Should Aiming in Arma 3 Be Made Harder?  

222 members have voted

  1. 1. Should Aiming in Arma 3 Be Made Harder?

    • Yes - harder shooting would result in better gameplay
      137
    • No - the shooting in a2 is fine as is
      85


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You don't have ANY sway. Really.:j:

So you must have a 100% hit rate at 500m, then.

I shoot 100% on the move from the 20 yard mark (with sidearm, 50 with rifle). I'm not walking up on a guy 500 meters off in game or real life, that's not what I'm saying. Im talking about approaching someone 20 meters off and being able to plug him full of holes should I need to, without stopping to get a good sight picture (usually dying when I try to).

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So you're talking instinctive, snap, point, fast-shooting? You can do that in game already and is the most effective way of destroying someone in real-time in a PVP within the CQ environment. The problem with sway is when you move while sighting down the barrel and that figure-8 effect it has, the oversway at times (sighted and unsighted).

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That's what I'm talking about. I don't do the snap shooting. I'm in a coop realism unit and approaching a civi with a rifle in order to cuff them as safe as possible (not using the CIM) and if they hear me and turn and if I see it I have to stop while letting multiple rounds off, which have potential to hit other civilians and such. So even if its slower paced, get an aiming mode you can aim accurately with.

And I know, holy run on sentence.

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Why do you think this is? I don't really have much experience with pvp and seems odd that the "less compels system" favors the "vets".

I just meant that anything applies to every FPS when comes to PvP..applies also to ARMA.

Vanilla or ACE -most of the times i have very nice grouping using full auto while run&gun.

There are only two things that will make me have hard time in PvP:

1)Proper simulation of breathing & weapon handling in ArmAIII

2)Old age

..and i m dying to have hard time :D

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I know a few prisons where you can serve some hard time

The showers give you a hard time

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I've re-capped the A3 videos and their accuracy in close quarters at least is amazing. They get good hits on target. 8 inch circle, say, of the enemies chest from 5-20m it's all going in there and the weapon looks like it is easy to control. That's good and all for CQB... but it makes me wonder what it'll be like for a 500m point target shot. I bet you, you could pull it off.

This then makes me wonder... imagine an AI squad. You aren't an area target at 800m, you're dead.

Yeah that's true. The shooting demonstrations are all very accurate. And the guy playing isn't even really trying, just nonchalantly shooting. I hope this isn't going to be the case in the final release. I imagine that when those presentations were new weapon handling or animation hadn't been implemented. And judging by the most recent devblog, I think that we are going to see some kind of change to weapon handling.

I shoot 100% on the move from the 20 yard mark (with sidearm, 50 with rifle). I'm not walking up on a guy 500 meters off in game or real life, that's not what I'm saying. Im talking about approaching someone 20 meters off and being able to plug him full of holes should I need to, without stopping to get a good sight picture (usually dying when I try to).

Yes your absolutely right. moving while shooting is way harder than real life. I strongly believe this should be fixed to improve upon close quarters battles. But What about the longer range shooting? Do you think there should be zero sway when engaging units out to 200, 300 maybe even 400 metres away while stationary. And more importantly how quickly do you think that you should be able to shoot and still remain accurate at that range. In Rye's insightful vid just a change in 20 -30 feet results in slower shooting to maintain accuracy. How fast do you think you could shoot accurately at 900ft. ? and does arma currently reflect that speed?

That's what I'm talking about. I don't do the snap shooting. I'm in a coop realism unit and approaching a civi with a rifle in order to cuff them as safe as possible (not using the CIM) and if they hear me and turn and if I see it I have to stop while letting multiple rounds off, which have potential to hit other civilians and such. So even if its slower paced, get an aiming mode you can aim accurately with.

I think that the combat pace will help with that. I thin it will be slightly faster than the current walk but also slightly less accurate. Then walking will be a bit slower than the current walk and will give you that precision while moving. Or at least that's sort of what I am hoping for.

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I know a few prisons where you can serve some hard time
The showers give you a hard time

Thanks guys.

Today its a 'moody' day in Athens-and i really needed some nice spicy comments to start my day :)

*sorry about the offtopic mods

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Once again, ACE is not an answer to any problem. Just like "PR" is also not an answer. ArmA3 vanilla won't come with these mods. If there's some feature in these mods that is such an answer, then simply mention that feature.

Well, should i mention vastly improved (as much as the engine supports it) range adjustment. And wind adjustment is a whole new feature not present in the vanilla at all. Now, do u think we need something more? And what?

Naturally, effects like humidity, temperature, altitude (air pressure) and even the Coriolis effect (at extremely long ranges) impact the bullets' trajectory. However, i'm not sure if they're easy to be added in game...seems as too much calculation would be need for that.

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Well, should i mention vastly improved (as much as the engine supports it) range adjustment. And wind adjustment is a whole new feature not present in the vanilla at all. Now, do u think we need something more? And what?

Naturally, effects like humidity, temperature, altitude (air pressure) and even the Coriolis effect (at extremely long ranges) impact the bullets' trajectory. However, i'm not sure if they're easy to be added in game...seems as too much calculation would be need for that.

Thanks. I think this kind of feature break down makes for a better answer than simply "ACE" or "PR". Um, those things wouldn't be hard to implement, but they'd basically be numbers/variables. It'd be really hard to have some kind of visual or audio queue for those things. You'd basically need some UI telling you what those levels were (humidity, temperature, air pressure, etc). If you wanted some extreme difficulty level, and that included no UI elements, then it'd be really hard to gauge those things. From BIS's perspective, I think they'd draw the line between video game simulator and professional training tool. These features would probably be more for military training tools. Probably more appropriate for VBS.

Range adjustment and wind adjustment could probably work, but the other stuff probably wouldn't.

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Americas Army 2 pretty much had shooting close to perfection minus their maps being small. Breathing simulation similar to that but improved upon would be exquisite. That way the heavy weapon sway could be removed and replaced with breathing as the deciding factor on your accuracy.

---------- Post added at 11:52 AM ---------- Previous post was at 11:47 AM ----------

How does VBS breath control work? If you have RMB bound to Optics, what do you press to hold your breath?

In reality you don't hold your breath, that's the problem with many games now. Your meant to shoot at the down cycle of your breathing.

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About weapon accuracy will arma III feature weapon resting? For now it's a pain to use machine-guns when there is grass, you are forced to lie down, so you can't see anything but others players can see and kill you.

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Originally Posted by spotter

Well, should i mention vastly improved (as much as the engine supports it) range adjustment. And wind adjustment is a whole new feature not present in the vanilla at all. Now, do u think we need something more? And what?

Naturally, effects like humidity, temperature, altitude (air pressure) and even the Coriolis effect (at extremely long ranges) impact the bullets' trajectory. However, i'm not sure if they're easy to be added in game...seems as too much calculation would be need for that.

Those are more ballistic challenges. With a bit of math and adjustments you can align your sights to deal with all these things and still get a perfectly accurate shot by simply pointing and clicking, requiring very little concentration or skill. And even if you don't have time to adjust you can trace you shots to find out where they are going to land. This doesn't really require any more skill to do, just another step before shooting. and Although things like "humidity, temperature, altitude (air pressure) and even the Coriolis effect" would all be cool they don't really result in that much more challenge when concerning ranges below 400 metres (correct me if I am wrong).

But what about human challenges and trying to depict shooting technique. That's what is being asked in this thread. should there be more sway, smoother sway, more time to steady one's weapon proper breathing control etc.etc. Currently none of these are handled by ace2 and I don't think it is possible create these things currently via mods with out really digging deep. And even then you probably wouldn't get good results. The thread is asking if you think these human challenges - not ballistic math problems - should be integrated into the game to make medium to long range shooting more realistic, require more concentration, skill and time thus improving firefights.

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Humidity, temperature and altitude could be implemented fairly easily, as a weather, time and date-dependent property of the maps themselves. Just so there was some variation between battlefields for a minimal level of variation. A minor factor to give educated shooters a leg up.

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About weapon accuracy will arma III feature weapon resting? For now it's a pain to use machine-guns when there is grass, you are forced to lie down, so you can't see anything but others players can see and kill you.

Indeed, highly necessary. I know it'll be modded in, yes, but some default functionality and visual feedback would be great and make machine guns a joy to use!

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Indeed, highly necessary. I know it'll be modded in, yes, but some default functionality and visual feedback would be great and make machine guns a joy to use!

I can't understand why such a useful feature is not already implemented in arma.

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As this thread is

---------- Post added at 09:08 ---------- Previous post was at 09:00 ----------

As this thread is about accuracy, i thought id make a suggestion. It probably is crszy or wrong, but it's worth getting community feedback on.

Very simply, have it so that you have to fo a little work lining the sights up. When holding down right mouse button and aiming that small mouse moves line up your sight picture and bigger moves turn where the rifle is poiting.

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The game already does that in a way. If you pick a rifle with irons, and look through the irons, and then swing the rifle from left to right you'll notice the irons don't line up, even if by a little. I'm sure this could be expanded upon, but just saying BIS kinda already has there foot in that door.

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As this thread is about accuracy, i thought id make a suggestion. It probably is crszy or wrong, but it's worth getting community feedback on.

Very simply, have it so that you have to fo a little work lining the sights up. When holding down right mouse button and aiming that small mouse moves line up your sight picture and bigger moves turn where the rifle is poiting.

So basically manual alignment of the sights? I thought of this to but I would do it in a different manner than you suggest. It would go..

Every time you bring up your sights they are slightly out of alignment.

When you press the "lock key" it will lock the rear portion of your sights inplace.

You then move the front post to align with the back.

release the "lock key".

your sights are now aligned and will stay in this position until you misalign them by firing, putting down your sights, moving etc upon which time you will have to realign them again.

This would definitely make shooting much harder, and I thought this sort of thing would be good until I realized...

CQC would be make even clunkier than usual

Aimpoints would be insanely overpowered

It would be much harder to do than in real life, and making the game play less realistic.

But I do think that After moving, bringing up the sights, reloading, swiveling suddenly etc. the sights should take 1-2 seconds to become automatically aligned if necceasary and there should be 2-3 seconds of additional sway before the default sway is applied to represent the time it takes to steady your weapon after moving. I feel this combined with vbs2 sway would minimize snap shooting at 150+m and would accurately portray the relation between time taken to shoot and accuracy.

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Multiple discussions on accuracy - gahh.

With windage, not like ACE please. They did good, but do not account for cross-winds. They do not account for objects (i.e. shooting from an behind an object, blocking wind = less effect on bullet). They do not account for terrain, and how that effects the wind.

Limnos would be hard for this. You have the current coming from the ocean. This can make the wind go CRAZY! Literally turning from 12o'clock to 6'oclock.

Headache central for scripting, if they want it done 100%.

If not then I accept. :D You're awesome just for trying it. A simple system works just as good, why? We have the tools to mod it, and it fits for the game... getting better.

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With windage, not like ACE please. They did good, but do not account for cross-winds. They do not account for objects (i.e. shooting from an behind an object, blocking wind = less effect on bullet). They do not account for terrain, and how that effects the wind.

You mean could not.

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Range adjustment and wind adjustment could probably work, but the other stuff probably wouldn't.

Why could? We already have the range adjustment (though extremely simplified) as part of the OA & CO. Obviously, BIS can do it all, if they only want.

About weapon accuracy will arma III feature weapon resting? For now it's a pain to use machine-guns when there is grass, you are forced to lie down, so you can't see anything but others players can see and kill you.

Totally agree. Machine-guns are cool but i avoid using them in Chernarus exactly for those reasons. U can't see shit when u go prone.

With windage, not like ACE please.

Are u saying it's better to have nothing than of having something? As antoin sad, we don't really need everything cause A3 won't be a "pro sniper training tool", yet it's cool to have something which gives us some sense of how it looks for real.

Limnos would be hard for this. You have the current coming from the ocean. This can make the wind go CRAZY! Literally turning from 12o'clock to 6'oclock.

Exactly:cool: Wouldn't it make shooting a bit more harder and, consequently, bit more interesting.

So basically manual alignment of the sights? I thought of this to but I would do it in a different manner than you suggest. It would go..

Every time you bring up your sights they are slightly out of alignment.

When you press the "lock key" it will lock the rear portion of your sights inplace.

You then move the front post to align with the back.

release the "lock key".

your sights are now aligned and will stay in this position until you misalign them by firing, putting down your sights, moving etc upon which time you will have to realign them again.

Hmmm, i never fired so i don't know. Though i'd really like to know if those sights need to be aligned so often as u imply? is it possible they get displaced so easily, like those locking mechanisms don't hold 'em tight in place? Btw, are u talking only about the iron sights here?

But what about human challenges and trying to depict shooting technique. That's what is being asked in this thread. should there be more sway, smoother sway, more time to steady one's weapon proper breathing control etc.etc. Currently none of these are handled by ace2 and I don't think it is possible create these things currently via mods with out really digging deep.

Ok, i see ur point. Bear in mind i use ace all the time so i don't really remember how and if these things differ in vanilla.

Sway-already present. There's a noticeable difference in the amount of sway depending on breathing/heart-rate so that's good. What might be corrected is the swaying pattern which seems to me as too random. Though it may represent shooter's attempt to manually compensate for his own sway, cause the pattern sometimes changes diagonally which may imply the shooter's attempt to exactly compensate his original sway. What i really don't like here is that we have some sway even when laying down. I would change this to zero when prone.

Breath control-may be more noticeable. Right now, in some situations i barely notice any stabilization when using this option.

Weapon rest-(one of the major reasons i use ace) is a must for A3, from both tactical & gameplay aspects.

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Multiple discussions on accuracy - gahh.

With windage, not like ACE please. They did good, but do not account for cross-winds. They do not account for objects (i.e. shooting from an behind an object, blocking wind = less effect on bullet). They do not account for terrain, and how that effects the wind.

Limnos would be hard for this. You have the current coming from the ocean. This can make the wind go CRAZY! Literally turning from 12o'clock to 6'oclock.

Headache central for scripting, if they want it done 100%.

If not then I accept. :D You're awesome just for trying it. A simple system works just as good, why? We have the tools to mod it, and it fits for the game... getting better.

ACE's windage is mostly about workarounds around ArmA2's limitations. Wind in ACE is the same on all island.

It will be enough if BIS will add proper wind in the first place with trees and grass synchronized to its direction as well as it affecting bullets. Together with multiple zones on the island having different wind.

While getting a realistic wind may be hard the implementation of several zones with different wind effects will be enough.

I still have a question why it's 2012 and ArmA still doesn't have windage. I mean it's the second thing that together with the lack of breathing makes everyone a sniper.

In fact the windage in ACE already extends firefight times greatly. Much closer to the real combat lengths.

There is no need to program anything for AI even - simply use the old precision system as programming AI to compensate for the wind and breathing will have the same results in the end but why waste time?

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Concerning wind, It may not be realistic, but I am fine with ace’s solution. It represents some of the difficulties presented by winds, even if abstracted and simplified by quite a bit. It would be neat to have really complex wind, altitude, moisture, blah blah blah, simulation when it comes to sniping… but that’s about where it ends.For basic small arms, and the range firefights involving them take place, I don’t need nor want that level of simulation, simply for performance sake. I would much rather a more indepth wounding/terminal ballistic simulation instead. And like I mentioned, by “should arma 3 aiming be harder†I simply mean the human component of that aiming, not the ballistic challenges presented by the environment or weapon.

In fact the windage in ACE already extends firefight times greatly

I don't seem to really notce this. But maybe I have played ace for so long I don't recognize the difference in length. But wind doesn 't really help extend firefights at 150- wool much... Or at least not for me.

Now, concerning weapon resting. I really hope this is another thing BIS implements in the base game. It is realistic and especially useful when using machineguns that have high recoil when not fired from a prone position. That and bipods are very important. There are two benifts I can see for using bipods/resting your weapon

Decreased recoil – resting your weapon means you can put your body in such a position that would normally leave you unbalanced, to better control recoil. Using ace I actually think that recoil is reduced to much – I can basically become a very precise machine gun with 30 shots while resting an m16. at 500-600m I can rest my weapon. Place my aimpoint on target and unleash a clip as fast as I can, about 6-10 seconds, reload and have at least hit my target if not killed him. That’s a bit unfair and unrealistic as in real life I have trouble keeping my shots within a 2m grouping at 50m while firing as fast as I can (but I am in no way a skilled shooter). Same problem applies for prone shooting I find but this is kind of a different

topic.

Increased accuracy – this has more to do with the topic of the thread. When resting a weapon you no longer halve to control breathing and there is virtually no sway, especially when done by an experienced/skilled shooter. On top of this, there is no need to steady your weapon manually so you can shoot quickly and accurately. This would make weapon resting highly advantage except:

There is virtually no sway to begin with (unless tired/wounded currently in a2) while not resting you weapon.

You manually steady your weapons in less than a second in a2

So in effect, to have weapon rests get their due respect and properly represent their advantages, I think that when you are not resting them you need to have more sway and take longer to manually steady your weapon. – because these are two things that resting your weapon improve. By having them virtually non existent without resting, it is impossible to improve upon them when using resting.

That’s not to say that weapon resting doesn’t have its uses now. In ace, less recoil alone is a win and whenever you are wounded these things are a life saver, especially when sniping. But in reality you don’t have to be wounded or tired to see the uses of weapon resting.

In A2, besides recoil benefits, there is very little noticeable advantages to weapon resting IMO, or at least it is not as advantageous as in reality.

Hmmm, i never fired so i don't know. Though i'd really

like to know if those sights need to be aligned so often as u imply?

is it possible they get displaced so easily, like those locking

mechanisms don't hold 'em tight in place? Btw, are u talking only

about the iron sights here?

I think your misunderstanding me. By aligning the sights I don’t mean adjusting them to zero in at a certain range. I mean physically positioning the weapon infront of you so that your eye, the rear sight and the front sight are in line with each other. You only

have to really do it with ironsights, so yes it would only apply to them. Aim points and other red dot sights don’t need to really be aligned, which is the big advantage of using them. technically you do have to “find the

reticule†in the sight as it will appear only where your weapon is aimed – not just in the centre of the scope like in arma and all other video games. This means if you are looking at the scope from an angle the red dot will not appear in the centre of the scope or will not even appear visible to you if the angle is large enough. A trained

soldier can easily "chase and find" the reticle down quickly though, and it will come second nature to him eventually. It can be said that aligning ironsight becomes second nature but not to the degree depicted in a2 (you align the sights in under a second and keep them perfectly aligned)

As I stated, manual alignment of the sights would be a litle excessive and make shooting harder than in reality which is just as bad as making it to easy to shoot… well IMO maybe not quite as bad, but I can see and understand why many people would really dislike it.

Edited by -Coulum-

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Multiple discussions on accuracy - gahh.

With windage, not like ACE please. They did good, but do not account for cross-winds. They do not account for objects (i.e. shooting from an behind an object, blocking wind = less effect on bullet). They do not account for terrain, and how that effects the wind.

Windage effects adds offset for the length of the shot, it doesn't matter where you shoot from and whether you're covered from the wind in that one spot. In fact I should say that wind has the least effect on it's earliest part of it's flight.

Limnos would be hard for this. You have the current coming from the ocean. This can make the wind go CRAZY! Literally turning from 12o'clock to 6'oclock.

Headache central for scripting, if they want it done 100%.

This approach is completely unnecessary. If the notion is that there is unpredictable eddies and turbulence then really there is no difference between simulating the wind as you suggest, and adding wind effect as a statistical average with random offsets. I cannot see any benefit to the former, it adds nothing to the game in any way other than reducing performance for no visible gain. Some things don't need to be simulated, only emulated. As such, a windage offset due to current wind strength is perfectly fine. The wind does vary over time and the player does not have a constant wind readout displayed or anything.

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