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maturin

Holy shit, we were wrong. The AI cheats!

38 posts in this topic

Okay, so the title was a bit of a draw. My specific discovery is that AI in vehicles cheat.

Unlike infantry, who have a clearly defined two-stage process of gathering information about an enemy player, vehicles instantly gain unfair knowledge about anyone who is firing on them.

To explain: when infantry hear a gunshot, they use the sound to make an inaccurate guess about the location of the shooter. Generally, they choose a certain radius of terrain where they believe him to be. They face towards that area and make a vision check. At this point, if there is line of sight between the player and the AI, the player is fully revealed to the AI.

But my tests have just convinced me that vehicles do away with this two-step system. Unlike infantry, vehicles tend to ignore gunshots fired nearby (except when very close). But if you hit a vehicle with a bullet, they will respond. The script I use shows them estimating your position based on the sound of the shot, just like infantry.

But the gunner of the vehicle will flat out ignore this estimate and aim at your exact position, even firing through completely opaque objects such as bushes to kill you with deadly accuracy! As soon as your shot lands, he knows your position and every step you take, even if you are in sufficient concealment.

To demonstrate this, I have made a repro mission.

Instructions:

1) Fire a whole magazine at the sky. This is to demonstrate that the Stryker ignores the sounds you make. He will not be alerted.

2) Fire a single round at the hull of the Stryker and immediately run behind the bush to your right. This type of bush provides complete concealment from infantry. You will reach cover before his periscope and gun turn to face your position, meaning he should not have seen you.

3) Wait for death.

Notice that before you die, you may see a circle of red smoke, with a white dot in the middle. This represents the area he thinks you are in based on your gunshot. It demonstrates that he is not using some perfect hearing ability to track you, because the circle will never close in around you. He is "seeing" you through the bush by a mechanism completely different than what AI infantry use.

And he is not using FLIR, because I have also tested this with a UAZ-mounted HMG. Not even a scope on that thing. Exact same behavior. This is a problem with vehicle classes versus infantry classes.

The thing is, my repro mission isn't elegant enough to remove all possible variables and fully convince the devs. So help me gather information and formulate a worthy ticket for the bugtracker.

IMPORTANT NOTE: I remember a ticket about vehicles having 360 degree vision when alerted. This bug would fully explain this cheating behavior, because the Stryker would have simply observed you run behind the bush, even though you were out of his scope's FOV. But I remember this bug getting fixed. But I also can no longer find it on the tracker. So if you have any information regarding this, please let me know.

Repro and unfinished ticket here: https://dev-heaven.net/issues/28203

Edited by maturin

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And so was the repro mission. I shouldn't report these when it's this late. But if it wasn't late, I wouldn't be bored enough to find the glitches in the first place.

Edit: Further tests indicate that the issue is in fact this one resurrected: https://dev-heaven.net/issues/18846

Go and vote the shit out of it. This is a game killer.

And the funny thing is, it doesn't seem to be a problem with BMPs.

Edited by maturin

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modern vehicles has more visors than scope :) ... also if i knew where You were and that You ran behind bush then i would open the fire into that bush even w/o Thermal Imaging equipment ;) just for sure ...

so to decide if this is bug or not it would need way better repro

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modern vehicles has more visors than scope :) ... also if i knew where You were and that You ran behind bush then i would open the fire into that bush even w/o Thermal Imaging equipment ;) just for sure ...

so to decide if this is bug or not it would need way better repro

ArmA vehicles don't have more visors than scope. There is the gunner's optic, and then there is the commander's optic, which you can see moving on the exterior model.

Strykers can't see through bushes with FLIR. I tested that. They only shoot you through the bush if they watched you run behind it with their cheating 360 degree vision.

And stationary vehicles placed in empty missions only look straight ahead. There is no physically possible way for the vehicle to acquire you visually in that repro.

I don't have a particularly good mission, which is why I made this thread to ask for help.

But really, believe me, it's a bug. It's a bug that you have already accepted as a bug because there is already a ticket for it. 360 degrees of vision. Check devheaven because I linked the materials.

The repro steps should be identical, so just try it out with the listed vehicles.

I started it off for you. Stryker M2 and UAZ DShKm (lotsa periscopes on that one!) are glitched, the BMP-2 has normal limited FOV.

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I have been killed by this countless times, sneaking up behind an enemy abrams with a satchel with both the turret and commanders M2 faceing forward, I got within 5 metres of the tanks while prone and was gunned down by them. The M2 and turret were still facing forward aswell, this was on my own server with <20 ping and no other enemies in the vicinity.

Happens all the time, I've just learnt to stay away from any vehicle if I haven't got the means to take them out with 1-2 shots of an RPG. ;)

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I totally agree!

This issue is game killer.

Me and my team used to play without respawn feature our missions

and we can't afford Cheating vehicles

:banghead:

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hence why qualite repro mission for CIT ticket is key ...

otherwise way too many variables than just 'create' mission with 'this and that'

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hence why qualite repro mission for CIT ticket is key ...

otherwise way too many variables than just 'create' mission with 'this and that'

There is already a complete ticket, with repro and all possible information.

Here: https://dev-heaven.net/issues/18846

And I'm reporting that it isn't fixed with at least two vehicles, aforementioned.

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I can confirm seeing this.

It's pissed me off for the longest time. Some vehicles have 360 degree vision

the turret is facing in the opposite direction but a soon as you fire or approach

from the other direction the vehicle is pumping you full of holes under a second.

There isn't even enough time passing between the vehicle seeing you and firing

for it to turn the gun to face you. it just snaps like someone using an aimbot.

I've never seen turrets actually snap in my direction. I'm dead way to fast to see what happens but thats what appears to be happening.

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I think we've all been there. But they still can't see through foliage, I've decided. They simply have unfair 360 degree vision that lets them see you run behind a bush. And then they shoot the shit out of it.

...unlike infantry who never shoot your through bushes because their position estimation system is retarded.

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Not all vehicles though

During one of our coop games we were moving through the village when we walked straight into the back of BMP-3 with our full squad. And by that I mean 3 meters. It was just behind the building.

So we calmly readied 2 AT4s and blasted it away with only one.

Granted we weren't trying to destroy it with 5.56 fire

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Yep, and the BMP-2 is kosher as well. Perhaps someone could help me put some thought into this.

BMPs have independent commander optics, but there is no gun attached.

Does the M2 Stryker have a commander's turret? An armed UAZ has no commander, of course, but it should also use the FOV of its passengers, rather than the optics of an armed vehicle.

Maybe it is the driver who can see 360. Because BMPs have that default A2-era slit for seeing things. The Stryker's driver, on the other hand, has a sort of scope that is new with OA. And the UAZ driver has a windshield.

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Yep, and the BMP-2 is kosher as well. Perhaps someone could help me put some thought into this.

BMPs have independent commander optics, but there is no gun attached.

Does the M2 Stryker have a commander's turret? An armed UAZ has no commander, of course, but it should also use the FOV of its passengers, rather than the optics of an armed vehicle.

Maybe it is the driver who can see 360. Because BMPs have that default A2-era slit for seeing things. The Stryker's driver, on the other hand, has a sort of scope that is new with OA. And the UAZ driver has a windshield.

The Stryker has Commander/Gunner on turret, driver and commander both have TV only with the hatch closed and both have Day-TV, NV and FLIR on their optics. So both can "see thru bushes". ;)

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As already stated, the Stryker can't see through bushes if you start the mission with it looking through one. It also can't find you if you fire through the bush at it, even if they turret swings past your position.

And the glitch also applies to an iron sights HMG bolted to the back of a pickup truck, created before BIS implemented FLIR...

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I thought that hitting someone gives a knowsabout boost to the guy that was hit, and with that also revealing your position. I think you would get the same behaviour if you reproduced this with infantry, however i cannot check it right now.

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AI spotting isn't just a 'knowsabout' value.

It's a two step process with different knowsabout values at every step. If you fire a shot out of FOV of a unit, he has only sound to go on. In my experience, it is nearly impossible for a unit to pinpoint your location on sound alone (so much so that I posted a bug ticket about it). Being shot at or hearing gunshots simply prompts the AI to turn and locate you visually.

But yes, a purer repro mission would be the one in the pre-existing 360 vision ticket.

Why do I feel like I'm still arguing a case? Everything I'm saying has been done to death already by other testers and devs, and packaged into an official BIS patch.

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What I saw: placed a M1A1 with me as commander on the Utes runway, placed a BMP 2 facing away from me a few hundered meters away, klicked preview->BMP turrets instantly starts to turn my way. Kind of strange

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That is strange, since according to the glitch I know, vehicles only have 360 degree vision for LoS checks. When they aren't alerted and are in the probability vision stage, they see normally.

Edit: WTF! You're right. The same thing happens to me. A completely empty map, no noises made by the vehicle and the BMP turns to shoot you.

It gains special knowledge about any other vehicle on the map! Tanks, trucks, even immobile bicycles. But it spots infantry normally. Ticket away!

Man, I so wish the vehicles just used infantry AI. Who knows what kind of unnoticed shenanigans have been secretly murdering us all these years.

Edited by maturin

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What I saw: placed a M1A1 with me as commander on the Utes runway, placed a BMP 2 facing away from me a few hundered meters away, klicked preview->BMP turrets instantly starts to turn my way. Kind of strange

Confirm +1.

Funny thing is, first time I tested I had CoWarMod loaded (combo AI mods SLX/Zeus iirc) and the BMP did not have this hyper awareness. I then took a few shots near it from Commander gun and it started turning in increments looking for me -unfortuantely it stopped these increments a few degrees before I was in LOS -so it seemed a little stupid.

Without mod, BMP turns immediately toward me at 200-300m from mission start.

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I just re-tested and this time, no dice. Maybe the vehicle has to be over 100m away? And any luck with other vehicle types?

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Guess AI scans a certain area if they are just placed without any waypoint/movement (IIRC default behaviour is "aware" not "safe"/"careless").

Player as commander/gunner of BMP2 is able to do a 360° scan ingame, AI should be able to do the same. Only thing that could be an issue is that the AI scan is different from players scanning method.

Try+test it with waypoints + different behaviour and distance.

Ingame you will see very rarely vehicles beaming/spawning in such close range to each other. Be sure that your tests are not getting too artificial/strange. ;)

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happened in ACE, did not test the vanilla properly but BTR60 is prone to this issue and indeed can see 360°, even when hidden behind huge rocks, it still can track your movement.

The range was 50 to 100m, if that helps

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No, this isn't it. Because the BMP only scans when there is a vehicle. Not if there is just an infantryman. The AI never does security scans in any other situation. It knows.

even when hidden behind huge rocks

You need major, major proof for that one. Despite all the AI glitches that have stumped ArmA players over the years, X-ray vision has remained a myth. And I know rocks block LoS. I hide behind them all the time.

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