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-=seany=-

Observations and disagreements with recent command changes

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Why its not possible to issue orders (that AI crew will follow) as teamleader in commander seat before switching to another seat? So that this seat switching will be only used as emergency aid if the AI for example got stuck?

Otherwise gameplay will be reduced to single-seater tank combat in external view on drivers seat.

Do you want the feeling of acting as tank commander, gunner or driver?

Or do you want somekind of A2OA/A3-Kart battles as default gameplay?

Just an idea but what if you add one key to map "fast switch commander <> driver"? The "commander <> gunner" is already there.

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The change made the game actually MORE playable.

While I agree the change was in the right direction, in current state it has caused too many unwanted issues. As I do not have the time right now to fix those issues (e.g. https://dev-heaven.net/issues/27677 is most likely not a trivial fix), I have limited the change to be applied only in the most dramatic case only (player in the cargo, which was the major bug intended to be fixed), and I leave the "player as a driver" for later resolution, when I or somebody else has a time to fix it.

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What, are you serious? TAB lock wasn't even possible from the driver's position ...
It was and still is in 1.60 and I used it excessively online. You can drive, and hit "next target" and "command fire" on the stick buttons all the time and it will always hit because its automated process done by A.I. Gunner. I also use peadls for gas and brake, its almost a auto kill feature for all red and yellow dots on driver radar as you can easily kill targets that way that are even out of redering distance. a.k.a as "shootign the empty green target box". Edited by Beagle

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It was and still is in 1.60 and I used it excessively online. You can drive, and hit "next target" and "command fire" on the stick buttons all the time and it will always hit because its automated process done by A.I. Gunner. I also use peadls for gas and brake, its almost a auto kill feature for all red and yellow dots on driver radar as you can easily kill targets that way that are even out of redering distance. a.k.a as Schootign the empty green target box.

Well, 1.60 then, but you noticed this is the beta forum, right? :butbut:

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Well, 1.60 then, but you noticed this is the beta forum, right? :butbut:
yes and thats what this is about..its not working anymore in the lates betas. Just like it was in original ArmA II.

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You two have misunderstanding it seems. You both dislike the "driver magically tab lock feature", right?

@Suma

One can still issue "cease fire" as commander and switch to driver afterwards.

The to sort "hold fire" issue would be good but is not vital.

The "manual fire" for driver, when group leader, would be more important and properly

a lot easier to implement.

in current state it has caused too many unwanted issues

What are these?

# Player no longer able to fire GRAD missiles from driver seat - wasn't meant to work that way anyway

# Player as driver no longer able to tab lock - good for gameplay and properly not desired either

# AI gunner to act on his own - makes player controlled tanks more useful and you can order "cease fire" or "hold fire" to stop him do so or use "manual fire"

# Player as driver no longer able to order gunner to fire one by one - thats the only one as far as I can see

I am open to hear other real issues and look into them.

Edited by .kju [PvPscene]

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Driver are no commanders, and it's nothign wrong with the game going back into right direcation again. and it is very acceptable as it is now since it affects all...includingn A.I. If you stick to RL procedures life as a tanker in arma is even better now...you will not be shot at from other tanks that are not even rendered and you cant be targeted through smoke anymore,
yes and thats what this is about..its not working anymore in the lates betas. Just like it was in original ArmA II.

So, what exactly are you arguing about then? I said it's bad to command a tank from the driver's seat and you countered that it is bad to command from the driver's seat? So instead let's agree that it's bad to have full command abilities from the driver's seat. It is the right direction to go, even if it is, as Suma stated few posts above, not completely implemented at this point in time. :D

---------- Post added at 11:30 AM ---------- Previous post was at 11:28 AM ----------

You two have misunderstanding it seems. You both dislike the "driver magically tab lock feature", right?

@Suma

One can still issue "cease fire" as commander and switch to driver afterwards.

The to sort "hold fire" issue would be good but is not vital.

The "manual fire" for driver, when group leader, would be more important and properly

a lot easier to implement.

Yes, I guess. I'm completely on your side here. Obviously ...

---------- Post added at 11:32 AM ---------- Previous post was at 11:30 AM ----------

@Suma

One can still issue "cease fire" as commander and switch to driver afterwards.

The to sort "hold fire" issue would be good but is not vital.

The "manual fire" for driver, when group leader, would be more important and properly

a lot easier to implement.

What are these?

# Player no longer able to fire GRAD missiles from driver seat - wasn't meant to work that way anyway

# Player as driver no longer able to tab lock - good for gameplay and properly not desired either

# AI gunner to act on his own - non issue as you only need to order "cease fire" or "hold fire"

# Player as driver no longer able to order gunner when to fire - thats the only one as far as I can see

I am open to hear other real issues and look into them.

Well, one would be, that the gunner doesn't change from sabot to HEAT unless he runs out of sabot.

A second is, he's wasting to much sabot on infantry and light vehicles.

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Bug #23017: AI gunner is unable to use secondary/multiple magazines of a weapon (like SABOT/HEAT)

But this is unrelated/unaffected by this change.

Of course there are many ways to make tank commanding actually better, see "related tickets" in here:

https://dev-heaven.net/issues/15293

A second is, he's wasting to much sabot on infantry and light vehicles

Sabot on infantry? Never seen this - are you sure?

In terms of light vehicles it depends - for most a player would use also sabot and a real world tank properly too.

This could get tweaked via config values I guess.

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I have made a proposition on the CIT few days ago concerning tanks,it's a solution that will please both sides ...

We all know that this affects mostly the tank's main gun ,which means that gunner will engage another tanks without your permission.

Currently,you have no control on the gunner;so he may attack ,for example, a METIS pod for like 5 rounds until he kills it while there's an ennemy AT guy near the tank and which your ai ignores completely.(AI loves attacking statics even with 100 AI running around it)

What i suggest,is that you keep the current system,but add the possibilty to assign targets from driver seat using 2 menu and at the same time disable TAB locking.(like T55 tank).

This will,in the same time,allow gunner to be independant and let the player the possibility to prioritize targets when needed.

It will also prevent locking unknown targets 8 km away using TAB lock.

Just play a bit with T55 tank if yo uwant to know what i'm talking about.

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Wrong. You can order "cease fire" and "hold fire" and "manual fire".

And "cease fire" also sticks if you switch to driver.

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T55 tank is a good example,and i think the idea i suggested is worth trying it :D

Sabot on infantry? Never seen this - are you sure? In terms of light vehicles it depends - for most a player would use also sabot and a real world tank properly too. This could get tweaked via config values I guess.

Oooooh yes ! especially heavy inf ,those carrying AT are considered by tank's gunner as a vehicle.

Also,AT inf attack other inf using AT rounds and there are a lot of tickets concerning this issue.

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Bug #23017: AI gunner is unable to use secondary/multiple magazines of a weapon (like SABOT/HEAT)

But this is unrelated/unaffected by this change.

Of course there are many ways to make tank commanding actually better, see "related tickets" in here:

https://dev-heaven.net/issues/15293

Sabot on infantry? Never seen this - are you sure?

In terms of light vehicles it depends - for most a player would use also sabot and a real world tank properly too.

This could get tweaked via config values I guess.

Yes. Ok, last build I played was 88027. Started a warfare games as a Tank Driver, meaning I ordered a crew, got in the M1A1 and then ordered my crew in (commander and gunner). What happens at contact is:

  1. crew is spotting an enemy truck (before I spotted it)
  2. AI commander orders the gunner to target a supply truck (notice, the gunner is not engaging targets with main gun all by himself!)
  3. AI commander engages the supply truck with his M2
  4. AI gunner fires a sabot shortly after then switches to coax (which I actually find amazing) and keeps firing while reloading sabot, cause he missed his first shot (which is also amazing because he's not an aim bot anymore)
  5. Ai gunner fires the second round and destroys truck

Sometimes this scenario happens also with infantry if they are nearby, as within 30 meters or less. Happened with enemy specops or snipers mostly but also AT infantry. Maybe because identifying those takes a lot longer than standard infantry or the threat level is higher.

The gunner does not switch to HEAT rounds unless he is out SABOT rounds. Then he uses them like SABOTs.

Those are my observations. How reliable they are? Well, in the driver's seat you don't have all the information the commander has ... I also observed, that target priorities are sometimes flakey. When lots of enemies/targets are identified there is much target switching orders from the AI commander without any firing of the main gun, which normally with enemy tanks around will kill you ...

Edited by Guess Who

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Made a ticket - also read the notes!

Bug #27927: AI gunner uses SABOT vs infantry at times

Basically he never uses SABOT vs infantry unless he is out of MG ammo.

Or do you see a specific tank to use it a lot?

Inf AT vs inf use is unrelated to this thread and has its own ticket:

Bug #23425: AI uses AT launcher (rockets) also vs AI

---------- Post added at 12:48 ---------- Previous post was at 12:45 ----------

Happened with enemy specops or snipers mostly but also AT infantry.

Maybe because identifying those takes a lot longer than standard infantry or the threat level is higher.

This might be the source - if the tank is not yet aware he is against infantry.

However might knowsAbout/nearTargets test would contradict that as the lowest type

AI can detect infantry seems to be CAManBase or more often SoldierXB.

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Made a ticket - also read the notes!

Bug #27927: AI gunner uses SABOT vs infantry at times

Basically he never uses SABOT vs infantry unless he is out of MG ammo.

Or do you see a specific tank to use it a lot?

Inf AT vs inf use is unrelated to this thread and has its own ticket:

Bug #23425: AI uses AT launcher (rockets) also vs AI

---------- Post added at 12:48 ---------- Previous post was at 12:45 ----------

This might be the source - if the tank is not yet aware he is against infantry.

However might knowsAbout/nearTargets test would contradict that as the lowest type

AI can detect infantry seems to be CAManBase or more often SoldierXB.

Thanx for making a ticket. My main gripe here is more that he does not switch to appropriate ammo. Use SABOT only at armored targets, HEAT at Infantry or light vehicles i.e. Maybe the gunner knows, that the effect of different ammo types in Arma is not that different at all? :D

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As mentioned, just make all tanks like the T-55 where the main gun cannot tab lock onto targets.

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While I agree the change was in the right direction, in current state it has caused too many unwanted issues. As I do not have the time right now to fix those issues (e.g. https://dev-heaven.net/issues/27677 is most likely not a trivial fix), I have limited the change to be applied only in the most dramatic case only (player in the cargo, which was the major bug intended to be fixed), and I leave the "player as a driver" for later resolution, when I or somebody else has a time to fix it.

Sad news Suma you were going in the right direction. Please consider Kjus (PVP Scenes) advice.

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I am not accepting the change, I am just letting the community to test it and provide a feedback, which is a purpose of the beta patches.

I agree with you a change like this should not be done at this stage, as it is too dramatic and would require a lot more AI fixes and tuning to get the game into a reasonable and well playable state. The build 88215 reduces the "effective observer" fix to the situation of a player being in the vehicle cargo, and no longer applies to gunner or driver seats.

That said, I would still recommend to report any AI issues on CIT which prevent you to play without commanding from a driver position, as I think such approach would be more in line with the long term product vision, and if such issues would ever be fixed, I would like to see the driver to be deprived of the commanding possibilities. With commanding and AI implemented properly, the player should rarely need to switch to the drivers seat anyway.

Thank you for the response and I am relieved that all angles of different kinds of players game play styles are being considered when making drastic changes like this (although I really should have guessed this!).

It is also interesting to note the long term vision, which I think will be very good if we can get the AI to a good enough level to allow us to play like that.

-----------------------------------------------------

As a side note:

The original request of the bug fix that caused this problem was basically to get the AI to enter a free fire, automatic engage mode when the human player was in the vehicle.

Would it be possible to have the Radio Command "Engage At Will" trigger this behaviour when in a vehicle? And have "Disengage" disable the behaviour and revert to standard, current style of control/command.

I would be happy with some thing like that. My main problem with it was loosing the default ability to command the AI from the driver position. An auto AI engage mode could be useful, given the option to enable and disable it (like a combat state) of course.

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This is bad and sad news Suma. :(

The change made the game actually MORE playable.

You no longer had to babysit the AI gunner for everything.

As player commanding/driving a tank is no fun experience exactly because of that.

Any AI tank or player only tank easily wastes a player commander tank/gunner.

In 1.60/without this key fix, it makes more sense to leave the tank and let the AI act

the tank on its own - see also https://dev-heaven.net/issues/15293#note-12.

Of course one should retain control over a tank as group leader no matter the position.

However fixing and improving that would be the way to go.

This is a terrible sign to see whine and frenzy win over good arguments and people

actually providing good CIT tickets..

Did you read the full thread or only the topic starters whine?

I have to agree 100% with kju. I have been making a tank-based mission lately

z28sk-KQe5A

and have been doing EXTENSIVE tank and Bradley fighting lately in SP using recent betas, and I have no problem at all with recent changes. Tab-firing from driver's seat is preposterous. Even kju's compromise idea of manual fire from driver's seat is unnecessary (but if a compromise is needed, that is the way to go).

I know how maddening it is when you are used to playing one way and changes are made that thwart your method. But A2 is a sim, not a simple shooter, and realism is the norm. Even with poor AI driving, following, and path finding, choosing targets and firing from the driver's seat is not the way to go.

I WANT the AI gunner to go on a wild killing spree when I go to driver's seat. That change was PERFECT!!!!!!!

So, I strongly second everything kju has written in this thread. To quote him again:

The change made the game actually MORE playable.
!!!!!!!!!
... and if such issues would ever be fixed, I would like to see the driver to be deprived of the commanding possibilities. With commanding and AI implemented properly, the player should rarely need to switch to the drivers seat anyway.

Yes, Suma!!!! I agree strongly!

Edited by OMAC

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I have to agree 100% with kju. I have been making a tank-based mission lately

and have been doing EXTENSIVE tank and Bradley fighting lately in SP using recent betas, and I have no problem at all with recent changes. Tab-firing from driver's seat is preposterous. Even kju's compromise idea of manual fire from driver's seat is unnecessary (but if a compromise is needed, that is the way to go).

I know how maddening it is when you are used to playing one way and changes are made that thwart your method. But A2 is a sim, not a simple shooter, and realism is the norm. Even with poor AI driving, following, and path finding, choosing targets and firing from the driver's seat is not the way to go.

I WANT the AI gunner to go on a wild killing spree when I go to driver's seat. That change was PERFECT!!!!!!!

So, I strongly second everything kju has written in this thread. To quote him again:

!!!!!!!!!

Yes, Suma!!!! I agree strongly!

I couldn't agree more. That's the way to go.

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@OMAC

Considering the SP case only is a mistake ... keeping that green square around targets is the real problem.

Removing TAB lock from tanks is really the way to go !!

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Switching to another crew seat should be only available if the tank/vehicle is on halt/stopped + with a 10-30 sec or customizable delay. This would increase the awareness of players and possibly reduce those who just go Rambo with AI crew/vehicles and ruin any combined operation.

Reduce or extend the vehicle options/function according to the seat/place where the player is actually sitting. No need to water these things down - instead increase the immersion, importance and value of them!!

Cross fingers that someday there is a more fluent interaction + communication between human and AI. Thats one of the biggest task and I'm glad that BIS didn't give up and placed only braindead bots in their games. :)

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Switching to another crew seat should be only available if the tank/vehicle is on halt/stopped + with a 10-30 sec or customizable delay.

I would keep the delay lower - perhaps a second or two - but otherwise I really like the idea. :)

+1

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Switching to another crew seat should be only available if the tank/vehicle is on halt/stopped + with a 10-30 sec or customizable delay. This would increase the awareness of players and possibly reduce those who just go Rambo with AI crew/vehicles and ruin any combined operation.

While this is an excellent idea (but with shorter delay as per MadDogX), such a change would really alter the game and piss some people off given AI driving/following problems. Until AI driving issues are rectified I would either leave it alone or make seat changing possible only when stopped but with no delay.

And Qazdar is correct to note that I was only considering SP, which is all I play 90% of the time. Has anyone ever operated a tank with another human in the crew? Can you still change seats quickly in that situation and bump the human to another seat? Never tried that.

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And Qazdar is correct to note that I was only considering SP, which is all I play 90% of the time. Has anyone ever operated a tank with another human in the crew? Can you still change seats quickly in that situation and bump the human to another seat? Never tried that.

Nope. Seats occupied by a player are basically blocked.

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The original CIT issue that caused this problem was to do with getting the AI to attack automatically when in a 2 seat vehicle without a commander. https://dev-heaven.net/issues/2353

This fix for this (unintentionally) broke existing AI control features that where put in place to make the AI more usable in game, given their current abilities (or lack thereof). It also didn't really fix the bug that was reported, as (If you try the Repro mission) the AI only partially engages automatically and partially follow your orders. Essentially making the AI less useful than before the fix.

The bug report has nothing to do with realism or wanting to restrict the abilities of the Human to command the AI from another position than the Commanders seat. That would need to be addressed by a Feature ticket.

One of you who does want this kind of behaviour/game play change to be implemented to the game should create a new FEATURE request on the CIT to get it discussed/voted on/Added. Not by hijacking (maybe too strong a word) an existing bug ticket.

That is a bad way to implement feature changes imo.

I still think the original idea of an Auto engage Radio command to your gunner in a vehicle is a good idea. But changes to how we interact with and control the AI to increase realism factor should be put on hold. I don't I am being that unreasonable. I am also glad that we now seem to be having a calm discussion, with some good ideas and interesting suggestions. The important thing is to have consideration for how others play the game. Most things can be made an option too.

Edited by -=seany=-

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