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Libertine

Will this version get some polishing, or is it another sputtering Ferrari?

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Hate it when my title is so thorough, i have nothing else to say in the text...:D

Well, I suppose i will though since im new to the forum [or been away for so long, actually]. I played Operation Flashpoint for probably a good 500 hours. I completed the campaign and the addon Red Hammer and did a lot of multiplayer too. Was eagerly awaiting Arma1 based on the screenshots, but after playing the demo, i never bought it. The A.I. was the biggest thing, kept seeing them lie down, slowly out of cover or doing other weird stuff. Fighting against human opponents can be a remedy if the ai bother you, but multiplayer had lag and again, felt so...un-smooth like i've grown used to with BF2 and BF2142 and similar games.

Arma2 was better, but i ran into a lot of weird problems trying to get into the demo. I was literally in a rage at trying to configure my keyboard [["are you sure you want to reconfigure that key, this key too? are you sure?, surely this one your mistaken? this one too? and that one? and that one and that one and that one and that one and that one?"]] Ugh.. But here again the A.I. is still the main thing that kept me away. Sometimes too good, most of the time too bad, rarely acting natural, always robotic. Grass was added to arma2 and looked amazing, but then the A.I. shot through it and bushes making the game similar to an old D&D game requiring you to use a whoooole lot of you imagination to pretend you were actually being stealthy sneaking through the woods. Arma2 two also had the mission generator, but it was almost totally frustratingly random and made you sit there wait for another one. Why can't i just do what i want? I could go on and on, but im sure its already all been said before...

I do watch some very fun mission videos from Briggil on youtube of the 6th Sense clan [they get shot through grass and bushes almost every mission come to think of it] and thats been a big motivator for getting Arma 3 and i at least will definitely give the trial a shot when it comes out.

Edited by Libertine
sounded weird

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Supposedly the animations are much smoother. But no one really knows anything yet. We've only seen a few video demonstrations and screenshots.

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And shooting through grass, yes an annoying bug. They have pictures of A3 with tall grass so that leads me to believe they have either fixed it or are working on it.

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Hate it when i word my title so well, i have nothing else to say in the text...:D

Well, I suppose i will though since im new to the forum [or been away for so long, actually]. I played Operation Flashpoint for probably a good 500 hours. I completed the campaign and the addon Red Hammer and did a lot of multiplayer too. Was eagerly awaiting Arma1 based on the screenshots, but after playing the demo, i never bought it. The A.I. was the biggest thing, kept seeing them lie down, slowly out of cover or doing other weird stuff. Fighting against human opponents can be a remedy if the ai bother you, but multiplayer had lag and again, felt so...un-smooth like i've grown used to with BF2 and BF2142 and similar games.

Arma2 was better, but i ran into a lot of weird problems trying to get into the demo. I was literally in a rage at trying to configure my keyboard [["are you sure you want to reconfigure that key, this key too? are you sure?, surely this one your mistaken? this one too? and that one? and that one and that one and that one and that one and that one?"]] Ugh.. But here again the A.I. is still the main thing that kept me away. Sometimes too good, most of the time too bad, rarely acting natural, always robotic. Grass was added to arma2 and looked amazing, but then the A.I. shot through it and bushes making the game similar to an old D&D game requiring you to use a whoooole lot of you imagination to pretend you were actually being stealthy sneaking through the woods. Arma2 two also had the mission generator, but it was almost totally frustratingly random and made you sit there wait for another one. Why can't i just do what i want? I could go on and on, but im sure its already all been said before...

I do watch some very fun mission videos from Briggil on youtube of the 6th Sense clan [they get shot through grass and bushes almost every mission come to think of it] and thats been a big motivator for getting Arma 3 and i at least will definitely give the trial a shot when it comes out.

Yeah the bad AI of the old ARMA2 demo, which stop you the old ofper purchasing it.;)

Why don't you download the free ARMA2:FREE then update it to 1.11 to see if AI could shoot you through bush? :rolleyes:

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Whatever we see of A3 currently is basically still A2 with added core features like physics. Every patch development and change made for A2 is also development for A3. btw A.I. beeing able to see through grass is fixed alrrady in A2 for most gras typed...but nothing can stop players or A.I. shoot at spots where they estimate an enemy to be. Grass is a litle bit of concealment for YOUR eyes but usually your fat butt and rucksack and HUGHE Javelin Launcher sticks out. After the first shot your concealment is gone anyway.

Edited by Beagle

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Yeah the bad AI of the old ARMA2 demo, which stop you the old ofper purchasing it.;)

Why don't you download the free ARMA2:FREE then update it to 1.11 to see if AI could shoot you through bush? :rolleyes:

Well, I watch Briggsil's 6th Sense videos and see them getting spotted and killed through bushed and grass constantly. They have hundreds of hours of video and i've watched every one. Plus i bought the game when it was on sale and ran into a few problems with the (ACE or CBM or something) mod, which i had to get working after seeing all those weapons, then lost interest, though i did tinker around with it a little bit. Never installed the addon, which i bought also.

Honestly, pick any Arm2 video on his channel and i'll bet you the mission gets cut short via getting spotted and shot at through trees. Even if one guy gets shot, that guy has to sit the rest of the mission out. That sucks to sit out when its for such a dumb thing that out of your control.

Example (at part 5):

http://www.youtube.com/user/Briggsil?feature=g-user-f#p/u/406/62o-itO96Y4

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getting spotted and killed through bushed and grass constantly

There are many factors that are put into play when it comes to the AI spotting the player. Not only can they see, but they can hear. And if they see you go behind a bush, of course they are going to shoot you. They know they can shoot through it.

The AI in ArmA is very sophisticated. It's not always "He can't see me if I can't see him".

Edited by Nicholas

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I disagree obviously that the Ai are sophisticated. The programming is sophisticated and took a lot of time and im sure takes up a lot of resources, but the results are often not sophisticated. Probably more than 60% of the time, the 6th Sense crew were fired upon well before exposing themselves. It was a regular thing. I know there are many factors, as i've programmed and read how AI see and wrote up a theory for a more color based approach to spotting the player possibly utilizing a secondary graphics card much like physX.

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But I thought grass and bushes were heavily armored IRL and couldn't be shot through?

I mean we all know that when the grass covers human's eyes the huge rest of his body becomes instantly invisible and cannot be damaged. And not only AI, but human players cheat by shooting me through bushes and grass - how dare they?

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Well, I watch Briggsil's 6th Sense videos and see them getting spotted and killed through bushed and grass constantly. They have hundreds of hours of video and i've watched every one. Plus i bought the game when it was on sale and ran into a few problems with the (ACE or CBM or something) mod, which i had to get working after seeing all those weapons, then lost interest, though i did tinker around with it a little bit. Never installed the addon, which i bought also.

Honestly, pick any Arm2 video on his channel and i'll bet you the mission gets cut short via getting spotted and shot at through trees. Even if one guy gets shot, that guy has to sit the rest of the mission out. That sucks to sit out when its for such a dumb thing that out of your control.

Example (at part 5):

http://www.youtube.com/user/Briggsil?feature=g-user-f#p/u/406/62o-itO96Y4

ACE has its so called improved AI system, but me a noob fighter thinks it much more sharpshooting than official AI.

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... Even if one guy gets shot, that guy has to sit the rest of the mission out. That sucks to sit out when its for such a dumb thing that out of your control.

Respawn option is a mission parameter. In fact most missions do allow respawn so having to wait for the end of a mission is quite rare on most games.

As for your main question:

It depends on you really but personally I think the "spluttering Ferrari" BIS has made is FAR superior than any other FPS game at the moment.

MW2 and BF2 look good and are fun for a bit but the gameplay is soooo repetitive and the maps are so small.

Edited by EDcase

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Well IMO shooting through grass is not a bug. Spotting through grass might be a bug, but I doubt that happens. And ArmA AI has a decent "memory" and some amount of predictive tracking, so once they've seen you, they know roughly where you are and can be. They will often lay down fire on areas they "know" you to be in, even though they might not be able to see you at that time. There is a "knows about" variable. There is the possibility that your "knows about" variable becomes so low that you no longer represent an immediate threat and some other larger threat might take over their attention, but of course that depends on the scenario.

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But I thought grass and bushes were heavily armored IRL and couldn't be shot through?

I mean we all know that when the grass covers human's eyes the huge rest of his body becomes instantly invisible and cannot be damaged. And not only AI, but human players cheat by shooting me through bushes and grass - how dare they?

Well, i hope THIS post goes through... :assault rifle owner smiley:

No, i mean its almost a rule that if they go through a forest, they will get spotted and then annihilated. Maybe its the ACE or CBA mod then?

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No, i mean its almost a rule that if they go through a forest, they will get spotted and then annihilated.

Nope AFAIK. AI only guesses where you are according to your previously known position. So don't stay where you are and don't move straight.

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I agree on AI spots/hear/communicate too well.

If you play with AI team mates in a area with a lot of trees/bushes your AI mates will continuesly spot the enemy which you yourself never would have seen.

Best option to improve your game experience is to simply lower difficulty under game options. I did that to simply being able to play the vietnam mods available.

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I just completed the "Jackal" mission and was able to complete it without being seen. The AI walked past me quite a few times. There are many variables that must be checked when it comes to the AI spotting/hearing you.

The AI can see, hear, and predict.

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If they run out of money before the game is polished they should release a official lite beta test for download on Sprocket this time.

Some Desert Island and units with new functions would do for testing them.

I guess there are customers for 5 bucks. And those could do bug reports for a more polished release later.

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I agree on AI spots/hear/communicate too well.

If you play with AI team mates in a area with a lot of trees/bushes your AI mates will continuesly spot the enemy which you yourself never would have seen.

Best option to improve your game experience is to simply lower difficulty under game options. I did that to simply being able to play the vietnam mods available.

Yes, this exactly.

Again, maybe i problem with a mod, but i would be semi-surprised if the 6th Sense crew didn't realize there was such a difference.

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Well, i hope THIS post goes through... :assault rifle owner smiley:

No, i mean its almost a rule that if they go through a forest, they will get spotted and then annihilated. Maybe its the ACE or CBA mod then?

The AI are just better than we are in forests. Their eyes don't get confused by millions of pine needles the way ours do, and they notice figures flitting inbetween trunks better.

But they don't see through bushes. And forests have less grass than fields. They do see through some canopy leaves better than we do, but this should only be a decisive factor if you are fighting in forested gulleys.

The AI spotting is just fine. It's the quality of the map objects that really counts. All ArmA 3 needs is a bigger middle detection stage between obliviousness and intimate knowledge of your location, so ghillie sniping is less of a one-shot gig.

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Best option to improve your game experience is to simply lower difficulty under game options. I did that to simply being able to play the vietnam mods available.

Vietnam mods may not use view blocking geometry at all. AI uses invisible 3d models for view calculation when it comes to foliage, not what you see. There's little BIS can do if a mod has only a model for humans. I had this problem even back in OFP with Unsung simply because they didn't bother to add view-blocking models to the high grass.

That's A)

B) if you can't see an enemy in the forest, doesn't mean a dude 5 meters to the left of you can't. It's an often occurence in MP as well where half of the squad idles, while the remaining half actually shoots because they can see somebody.

Then of course as maturin points out AI doesn't see the insane mix of colour detail present in forests but BIS already did some improvements with soldiers being less noticeable in forests for AI in 1.60

Edited by metalcraze

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Hi, i've few faith after have seen some of the ArmA2 models directly on the current über-Beta ArmA3 videos, however... there's a very very long road ahead before the ArmA3 see the light and that's time more than enough to polish the game models and textures to ensure that those bugs, those bugged models of the ArmA2 that they're using and that they've the MLODs and textures are fixed, aside the new content that we don't really know about. But it have to be clear that the F35 and AH1Z models and textures are from the ArmA1, which is a bad sign IMO... . The most accurate reply to the topic, will be: we don't know it and BIS don't gonna talk about it with us. Let's C ya

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The AI are just better than we are in forests. Their eyes don't get confused by millions of pine needles the way ours do, and they notice figures flitting inbetween trunks better.

But they don't see through bushes. And forests have less grass than fields. They do see through some canopy leaves better than we do, but this should only be a decisive factor if you are fighting in forested gulleys.

The AI spotting is just fine. It's the quality of the map objects that really counts. All ArmA 3 needs is a bigger middle detection stage between obliviousness and intimate knowledge of your location, so ghillie sniping is less of a one-shot gig.

You should go read about how A.I. vision usually works, its much simpler than i think you realize. Or don't, it kinda disappointing. Bushes and other things that block vision likely just a very simple collision box around them to trigger a sound made while running through them, trigger leaves coming off when bullets pass through and that same simple box is likely used to determine line-of-sight exists [to part your collision box]. If the player is within a pre-determined visual range which depends on the awareness state of the a.i. {ie. relaxed, active, searching} AND, the player is within the Ai FoV, AND a cast ray from the Ai can hit the player's collision box, then the player is seen. The problem is that the rays can go through a one mm wide gap in collision boxes. The more A.i. that can exist at one time, the simpler they need to be in general.

However, I'm starting to think the particular vision problem i noticed was really a problem of the ACE mod rather than with Arma though. If 6th Sense was still going, i'd probably bring this to their attention as i think it would make getting in and around the enemy more easy and realistic. Not so completely range based.

Edited by Libertine

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You should go read about how A.I. vision usually works, its much simpler than i think you realize.

I don't believe the A.I. in ArmA is like the A.I. in other games. The A.I. in ArmA is actually quite complicated.

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