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nightsta1ker

Flight dynamics (important issues)

328 posts in this topic

More like don't compare the T bar (yak...)to a computer joystick.

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What about the lack of any yaw requirement when hovering the medium Heli and severe under representation of yaw requirement on the light? Surely this can be fixed as it was ok after rotorlib 4 and cougar patch. It only got messed up after 1.05.

I'm new to BIS games - anyone here familiar with the ticket bug reporting mechanism that could report this through the proper channels? - mentioning it here doesn't seem to be getting anyone at BISs attention!

Two torque issues identified and for the most part agreed are:

1. Lack of torque induced yaw

2. Unrealistic tail rotor authority at speed.

The other thing I'm seeing is what appears like exaggerated pendulum reaction on cyclic rather than over sensitivity. Relatively small inputs result in large swinging. We get bank angle followed by drift rather than drift followed by bank if that makes sense! Anyone agree?

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I'm new to BIS games - anyone here familiar with the ticket bug reporting mechanism that could report this through the proper channels? - mentioning it here doesn't seem to be getting anyone at BISs attention!

Hi Fergus,

The developers keep a close eye on the community issue tracker (you'll have to register)

https://dev-heaven.net/projects/toh-cit/issues?set_filter=1

Although I agree with the issues you mentioned above, before submitting a ticket over there to address the flight dynamics, I think it would be good to have a few extra opinions coming from real world helicopter pilots. This will give better guidelines to the developers about the (amount of) correction to make.

Any chance you could convince some of the guys at hovercontrol to take a look at it??

Cheers,

Sylvain

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they are watching...

Two torque issues identified and for the most part agreed are:

1. Lack of torque induced yaw

2. Unrealistic tail rotor authority at speed.

The other thing I'm seeing is what appears like exaggerated pendulum reaction on cyclic rather than over sensitivity. Relatively small inputs result in large swinging. We get bank angle followed by drift rather than drift followed by bank if that makes sense! Anyone agree?

I completely agree with this. It's not a joystick sensitivity/curve issue...it's almost like the rotor disc is rigidly mounted and the cabin twitches with every move of the disc. IRL, a helicopter seems to "slide" around with small cyclic inputs before any cabin attitude change occurs.

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I took the time to make a short video of the no-torque problem on the medium helicopter:

I apply absolutely no pedal and it just goes straight up in the air when I increse collective - no torque at all.

I don't know why that is and how to provide BIS with useful feedback on this matter. A complete reinstall of TOH didn't solve the problem. I'm lost honestly ...

Hopefully this gets sorted out fast.

On the light heli torque is noticeable. With collective halfway raised it takes about 15 seconds for the first 360° turn - spinning increases over time (pilot+copilot in the heli). I think it could be a bit more but maybe that's realistic - I'm no pilot so I don't know. And the anti-torque rotor seems really effective - even at high speeds. Otherwise it handles well I think.

The heavy model doesn't handle that much different than the light heli apart from beeing more sluggish which is really weird I think. Also it needs less pedal input than the light when empty (only pilot and copilot)

From those two models (not counting the med heli because of the bug) the light FM feels best but not as good as the new Hind. I think we can congratulate BIS on this FM. I'm really impressed!

Derby

Edited by Derbysieger

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Derby - I get the same thing as you with the medium. What I noticed is that torque starts to appear once the collective gets to 60% - after that it comes on quite strongly.

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I took the time to make a short video of the no-torque problem on the medium helicopter

I confirm that there is a problem. Most probably in controler section where pedal ranges are defined. We actualy investigating solution.

First hint for advanced users that fly on expert settings without autotrim - you can try alter XML values this way: in section /ControlSystem/CSComponent/MathExpression/Expression use Th0t = linearInterp( 24, -24, (pedals +1) * 0.5 ),

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First hint for advanced users that fly on expert settings without autotrim - you can try alter XML values this way: in section /ControlSystem/CSComponent/MathExpression/Expression use Th0t = linearInterp( 24, -24, (pedals +1) * 0.5 ),

What do those linearInterp()-arguments mean? Can't find anything about it in the FM Wiki.

PS: Nevermind, I think I just figured it out: [24,-24] is probably the output range and the third argument is the actual controller input value (mapped from [-1,1] to [0,1]range). Am I right?

Edited by daikan
Answering my own question ;)

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You need to wait for RLib 4 documentation. It will be released soon.

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You need to wait for RLib 4 documentation. It will be released soon.

Isn't it already updated for RLib4? At least that's what it says in the Disclaimer:

This version of the documentation (4.0) is based on a version of the library that was used in TKOH patch 1.04.

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Hi !

Maybe something is wrong with my game. The heli physics are so sensitive i can't fly with a joystick. Nothing wrong with the joystick. I tested some other gamepads. Always the same problem.

maxx

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Possible bug here, need confirmation. The Hind, as most of you probably know, for quite some time holded the speed record for helicopters with 368.4 km/h. Which is ~200knots. Despite that in Take On the speed gauge in SuperHind has the red (never exceed speed) range starting from ~140knots. I've made some small test today morning. Picked up the hind without ammo and tanks with half fuel. Started gently, accelerated to 260km/h and flew stright for about 10 min, than landed. During flight speed varied from 260 km/h to 300km/h. No harsh turns, no violent controls movement. As soon as hind reached 260km/h it started to shake slightly making "brake engine noice". After landing the sound and shake remained proving that helicopter is permanently damaged. The question is, is it only on my version or there is such bug already reported and I didn't find it? Or, what I can hardly belive, nobody noticed that yet? Or maybe somehow the max hind speed is less than 260km/h?:confused:

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It concerns not only Super Hind but all Hinds in addon, for me its a bug of damege model. You can fly ahead without any big G-force and this shake will be present too.

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Umm guys, have you checked your torque while doing this?

Afaik VNE/max speed is for retreating blade stall, but it might not even be reachable if you are too heavy. Please verify that the torque is not yellow/red while in flight :)

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Umm guys, have you checked your torque while doing this?

Afaik VNE/max speed is for retreating blade stall, but it might not even be reachable if you are too heavy. Please verify that the torque is not yellow/red while in flight :)

Of course it might not be reachable if heli is too heavy, thats why i left my weapons, gunner and half of fuel at base. And still flying stright doing literally NO manouvers the damage occurs.

I don't know, maybe my torque gauges don't work properly but no matter how hard I try the needles on those gauges don't want to go higher than 20%. I don't know what, but something is wrong here.

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maybe its too far but Does anyone know what is causing this?

in this the shock came fron landing:

I heard it must be induced by some rumble, but htis isnt the case here. So has it something to do with the rotor speed?

Edited by tremanarch

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Hi Guys,

Just checking back in here. I haven't bothered with toh since march due to the poor flight model. Has the flight model been improved upon since the initial hinds release? Debating if I should reinstall the game. Thanks

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Hello all...

Reporting back in after quite a while away from this game (real life interfering, computer breakdowns etc etc). What I noticed when flying again was that the choppers didnt behave at all as I remember them doing? Now Im flying straight from the STEAM install without no mods or alterations to the flight dynamics. I remember modding something about the FD the last time which made the flying more enjoyable. Now it feels like the chopper (esp the light ones) behave like a RC helicopter.

So, the question is. Is there some solution to this or are everyone happy with the way the game works?

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Is there some solution to this or are everyone happy with the way the game works?

Installed the 1.06 patch and tried the light heli and the medium: same behaviour as before. It's allways a relief to return to X-Plane... ;-)

Which is a shame since the TOH visuals are quite nice and the scenery is short of fantastic. And a propper flightmodel would even make it _easier_ to fly and more fun (there goes the typical gamer/simmer argument)

I was a "Take-On"er of the first hour, pre-ordered, waited patiently, tried the release, was diappointed, followed guys like nightstalker from HC (who _really_ really knows his stuff) through their iterations, and finaly gave up on the game.

Buts thats just my two cents..... ;-)

Best Regards

Kai

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Instead of basing one's opinion of the flight model's authenticity on the opinions of others, something I try not to do, I am forced to compare this game to other things I've tried such as FSX. No, the flight model in FSX doesn't accurately represent a real helicopter. That said, one can still learn to fly with it, and a lot of people - pros included - do.

X-Plane from my understanding is more of a modeling simulator. Thus it will make the mathematicians happy, but it is in no way guaranteed to be more accurate than FSX, or TOH, or anything else when it comes to representing actual characteristics of flying.

Keep in mind that a flight model can be perfect for 95% of the things you do; it's the 5% of crazy maneuvers that will put it to the test and yield strange results.

TOH gives me strange results sometimes when I come in to a hover from a strange angle low to the ground. AFAIK every simulator does, and real helicopters do as well. Modeling a chaotic system is not exactly simple computationally, so the best solution short of investing in a server cluster to run your enhanced flight models is to fit simplified curves to available data.

Any sim worth its salt does this, TOH included.

That said, I have no issues with the TOH flight model now that I've been playing for a couple or three weeks. Of course not being a real helicopter pilot I can't tell you how it compares. Not being a real helicopter pilot who happens to be a fanboy of a specific sim, I can't give you that kind of biased opinion either. Nevertheless, the game matches the vast majority of my expectations from the way I understand physics and helicopter flight dynamics. Maybe not all, especially regarding the deflection of air currents and stuff like that. But if I wanted that, I'd fly a real helicopter.

And to the guy who insulted the flight model comparing it to RC helicopters... :confused:

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TOH gives me strange results sometimes when I come in to a hover from a strange angle low to the ground. AFAIK every simulator does, and real helicopters do as well. Modeling a chaotic system is not exactly simple computationally, so the best solution short of investing in a server cluster to run your enhanced flight models is to fit simplified curves to available data.

So finally it remains questionable what _strange_ results are. For me, being a aeronautical engineer, commercial fixed-wing flight instructor and occasional helicopter student pilot, TOH's flight model is _completly_ strange. And, yes, X-Plane comes close to the real thing, FSX/FS9 is crap.

And a helicopter is a dynamically instable, but not chaotic system which can in its parametric form be solved with no difficulty on any computer... ;-)

Anyway, my goal was not to insult those who are happy with it. The OP just asked....

Best Regards

Kai

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Well no insult was taken. I just think people tend to get into camps around certain sims and become very hostile toward any alternatives. I will certainly concede to your experience with other products.

However, you will find that solving an equation on any computer and simulating the real-time applications of the equations in a system controlled by a player - a chaotic force - are two very different things, and it becomes a whole lot more complicated than finding the instantaneous forces with a standard equation. The processing needs can differ wildly based on what the helicopter is doing, and in some situations compromises must be made. Imagine if you put down 100 helicopters, each in their own groups, and scripted them all with some control inputs you recorded from doing aerobatics.

The game has to be able to handle that by design.

EDIT: And sure, they all do, and many will agree that others do it better than TOH. I will argue, however, that the simulation capabilities outside of specific parts of the flight model are second to none. You can certainly recreate scenarios that are impossible with any one other product.

Edited by dwringer

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Working Helicopter pilot here. Plenty of actual, and simulated helo work including X-plane, FSX, and full motion simulators.

Love the visuals, flight model is still tough to get a handle on. One issue I feel when flying is the amount of inertia built up when drifting in a hover. I start to drift and make a quick cyclic movement that should stop the drift. I get rotor and pitch deflection but the drift has to slow to a stop and by then I am drifting in the opposite direction.

Not sure if this is lag in the control inputs or just too much inertia in the flight model.

Still the best sim for flying around.

Keep up the great work!

rmako

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