bushlurker

Bush's Geotypical Microterrains - Source Files & Beginners Guide

113 posts in this topic

It works!!!! I now have my WRP_PROJECTS folder and

it ends with "press any key...".

THANKS guys :dancehead::pc::dancehead:

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Congratulations!!!

All thanks to Mikero, of course - and Arma2P!

Can you imagine what it was like before? - doing that job manually?...

B

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Hi everyone,

first let me thank you for this great Tutorial Bushlurker!

Now I have worked me through this Tutorial, step for step.

Everything works fine until yet.

I have a strange Error occuring during the Binarizing.

It starts as normal as you said, and then there comes an error that it cant write the pbo into my choosed direction.

When I hit Try Again it comes again and again. :confused:

If I start the Binpbo with administrator it cant find my Project folder or the P: drive.

Have i made something wrong?

greetings Donny

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Hi!

Do you have User Account Control (UAC) enabled in Windows? - that doesn't like you writing to "protected" folders - like C:\Program Files, etc

Try disabling that if it's active - reboot, then try binarizing again... it shouldn't be necessary to run it as "administrator" or anything...

B

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Well :)

Thank you for the fast answer, I have really enabled it, but this wasnt the main Problem.

The error came agian.

Then I just took some experimentals with folders etc..

It was my stupidness,

I forgot to precreate the Folders "@khargharvalley\Addons\" so it only needs to binarize it into it.

Well well :rolleyes:

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Glad you got it working!... It's always the littlest things which cause the biggest problems...!

B

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Yeah, it was an very Nice Feeling to get it Working in Bulldozer, and then a simple Thing can smash you Down..

Now its Time for the Project, dont want to know what Problems are coming, i think this Would be very Hard Times.

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Hi Bushlurker! Thank you for your tutorial! I'm looking for your "Afghan Valley Source Files v02" but i can't find it...

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Hi there...!

Yeah - it seems I've screwed up several links recently....

If you click the "Armaholic Mirror" link in the first post that'll take you to the Armaholic page for the main Guide... there's two links on that same page for the Source Files package too....

Good luck!

B

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Thank you very much :)

Using your config i'm getting an error:

ErrorMessage: File btc_river\config.cpp, line 24: .BTC_river: Undefined base class 'Takistan'

class CfgWorlds
{
class CAWorld;
class Takistan: CAWorld
{
	class Grid;
	class DefaultClutter;
};
};
class BTC_river: Takistan
{....

----

Fixed :) Missing {

By the way when i load my island into the game i can't see the textures...

And i can't load OA objects in visitor...I read that the new BI tools fixed this problem, so what i'm doing wrong :P

Visitor is so frustrating :P

Edited by Giallustio

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Hmmm....

The code fragment you posted seemed OK... Glad you found the problem anyway! Yeah - one "\" or "}" ot of place can cause endless grief... you have to be very careful when tweaking stuff - the problem isn't always exactly where the error report says it is...

these configs are mostly pretty small... if you hit a snag in the future, please post the whole config - you can use the "Spoiler" tag to keep your main post looking neat, and it means that interested people can pop that open and scan your whole file, in case there's errors elsewhere as well...

This guide is basically split into two parts... the whole of the first part is concerned purely with getting the tools installed correctly, and unpacking your game to the P:\ drive properly. That's a fundamental first step which has to be done correctly, or you'll have endless trouble later on...

It might be worth your while slogging through that setup section line-by-line... it doesn't take too long, and then at least you know you have a proper toolkit.....

Visitor isn't so much frustrating as limited in what it does... once you get the hang of it you'll find that it does pretty much work without problems... there's just quite a lot to learn in the beginning...

Nothing complex though! - a bit of practise and familiarity and you'll be fine!

B

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Let me start off by saying that this guide is the best one. There's quite a few out there, some have mistakes in them, some are outdated, some are awfully written. Happy I stumbled on your's.

I have a problem though. I worked through the whole guide. Everything works fine in visitor and buldozer, but when trying to binarize, the executable stops working. It literally says Binarize.exe has stopped working, every time. In the logs the last line is: <world = "c:\users\may\documents\armawork\may\lash\Lash.wrp"> However, a pbo file is still created by binpbo. When I try to test it in-game, I get a read error from the same .wrp file. Pretty clueless to be honest, any ideas/help would be appreciated.

Note that I am using a link to the actual files on purpose, instead of the P virtual drive.

edit: I guess it is also worth mentioning that I was able to binarize the samplemap example earlier today.

Edited by Mayrhofen

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hmmm.....

that sounds kinda strange....

Any particular reason why you're not using a standard P:\ drive setup???... the instructions in the guide and the tools themselves kinda assume that standard setup...

BinPbo actually crashing isn't a good sign at all...

Did you manage to binarize the samplemap with this "link" setup? or was that with a regular P:\ drive.....

B

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I wasn't using the P drive setup, because UAC was interfiering with it. And yes, I was able to binarize the samplemap like this. Also, I've tried binarizing both ways, with UAC on and off - made no difference. Using the P drive method didn't change anything either.

does this look correct to you? it's my copy directly line:

*.pac;*.paa;*.rtm;*.sqf;*.sqs;*.bikb;*.ext;*.fsm;*.wss;*.ogg;*.wav;*.fxy;*.csv;*.html;*.lip;*.txt;*.sqm;*.bisurf

Thanks!

edit: issue isn't with the copy directly line. Reinstalled binpbo, no change.

edit2: Oh wow. Can't even binarize the samplemap anymore, regardless of UAC/paths I use. Every single time, it says binarize.exe has stopped working. Tried reinstalling all the tools, didn't make a difference.

edit3: Reinstalled everything, unpacked the pbos, etc. Totally clean install + sample map. Just doesn't work. Binarize.exe still stops working. Visitor + buldozer work fine.. Of course I stumble on a problem that nobody else is having on day 1. :(

edit4: YES. I was finally able to binarize samplemap again. It only works if I use the pbos mentioned here. I was using the ArmA2P thingy to unpack all the official pbos. Apparently binpbo doesn't like something ArmA2P does. Any idea what was wrong? I'd really rather not unpack all the pbos manually.

edit5: Actually ArmA2P is fine. I put all the extracted pbos back to the ca folder. Binarizing goes fine, as long as the configs-only CA folder in my workspace only includes cpp files from the pbos mentioned here. If I use command prompt to get all the cpp files, binarizing starts failing again. Any ideas which config files might be screwing with me?

Edited by Mayrhofen

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oh dear.... looks like you've been struggling hard, and tried a few obvious things to no avail... :(

Okay....

Firstly... I'm afraid Sgt Ace's admirable tutorial is starting to show its age a little....

Arma2P IS the way to unpack all the .pbo's - no need to do it manually... you should also ignore the Sgt Ace section on making the "configs-only CA" - Arma2P makes one of these for you too - after a successful run you should find it on the P:\ drive in a "WRP_PROJECTS" folder...

It's massively advisable to use the default P:\ drive setup - or at the very least - a virtual disk... with care it can be arranged to be a drive letter other than P, but it's by far the best plan to go with the usual P:\ setup unless you have a major reason not to....

Let's see if we can get this into a checklist format.....

FIRSTLY - Go to "c:\users\may\documents\armawork\" and find your "Tag folder" - "MAY" in your previous posts... BACK THAT UP somewhere! - you might have a "Tut" namespace folder as well, left over from the Sgt Ace tutorial - might as well back that up too... Arma2P is clever, and WON'T mess with "user files", but it's always best to be sure, plus you may be rethinking your tools install location, so make that backup anyway.....

* Make sure you definitely have the latest tools package... v2.5.1 - get that HERE

* Make sure you have the latest Arma2P - version 2.5.1a, and the latest DePbo (3.89 currently)...

* Switch off UAC and reboot...

* Now you need to decide where the tools will live... if you have a spare second drive or can manage an empty partition of 50Gb or so, now's the time to use it - if not, then the default location for the tools will be OK...

(all the "action" will happen on that "virtual drive P:\, but all the contents, plus the entire unpacked game, will actually be in a folder alongside the tools - this can take up more room than you originally intended! and can be a hassle in the default tools location which is in C:\My documents or wherever - this is why people like a empty "D:\" partition or spare drive - but it's not compulsory... so go with whatever location suits you best.....)

* OK - Install all the tools to your preferred location... REBOOT Again!

* You should now have a "virtual P:\ drive" - it'll have stuff pre-loaded, but we can ignore the contents for now... Arma2P is smart - it knows what needs to be kept safe and what needs updated... it also doesn't like being run from a "protected" folder - regardless of UAC, so the next step is.....

* Make a "MikeroTools" folder on P:\ main directory.... unpack arma2P and the DePbo dll packages in there as per my tutorial instructions.....

* Now run Arma2P - again, as per my tutorial instructions, and go make a coffee and a sandwich - it'll take a little while....

Once Arma2P is done it should finish with a "press any key to continue" notification in the DOS box.... press a key to get rid of that and you should be able to look inside P:\CA and see the entire game in there, in unpacked format...

Hopefully so far - so good....

* Now you can replace your user folders - go to your backup location, find those namespace folders with all their contents that you backed up earlier and drop them on the main P:\ root directory...

* Now look for a folder on P:\ called "WRP_PROJECTS" - this contains your readymade "configs-only CA folder" - it contains all the configs in .cpp format, structured correctly..... copy that complete "CA" folder into your namespace, so you have P:\May\CA\<all the configs>

** Ignore any instructions in other tutorials you may read about messing with the "bin" or "core" folders on P:\ - the latest tools, plus Arma2P should be all you need for a proper Combined Operations Dev setup...

Assuming you've managed all the above correctly - try binarizing the Tut Samplemap again....

Just to be sure - run Visitor - load the Samplemap project and launch Buldozer.... when you see the terrain OK - "Export .WRP" as per tutorial instructions - then launch BinPbo and again - follow thru the exact tutorial instructions and see if it binarizes OK...

If that lot works OK, you should be fully set up and ready to try your own project..... If not, post again and let us know how it went....

Initial confusion is common - not helped by occasionally contradictory and/or out of date information... however, all this seemingly arbitrary messing around does actually work - most of the time..... in fact - this is the easy part..... ;)

Don't panic - it'll all come together.... almost all problems are usually just some simple error somewhere and easily fixed.....

Keep us posted.....

B

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Thank you for the detailed and helpful replies. I finally got everything working - and of course, the solution was something ridiculously easy.

I was using the latest Arma2P, but apparently not the latest BI tools, even though I downloaded them from the wiki. Suffices to say there was some conflict with the old BI tools and all the config files from ca folder. All I had to do, is download the latest BI tools. Something so simple to overlook! Anyway, thanks again. Luckily everything works fine now. I imagine most people would have given up by now though.

Hopefully my findings will help somebody else too.

Binarize.exe has stopped working, binpbo crashing...

Edited by Mayrhofen

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Great tutorial really helpful. I was wondering if you could comment on actually adding a building to this, I know it's not really the scope of the tutorial but I'm using it at a base since it came out correctly.

I was going through Mondkalb Terrain Tutorial, which touches on it but seems to be incomplete(or outdated). It looks like you only need to add the additional 'packs' in requiredAddons[] field in the config.cpp. While that is enough to get an binpbo log with no errors, ingame it just throws a 'cannot open object' error and loads nothing where the building should be. Could you comment on this or point me in a direction that this topic is covered in a little more depth? Thanks.

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Hi there.....

Glad you found the tutorial helpful!

As you've noticed, it's more of an "introduction" than a "complete how-to"... mainly designed to ease people through that initial "set up and have a go" stage... Sooner or later I'll get around to writing an additional chapter or two to cover some of the "next steps", though at the moment and for the currently forseeable future I'm neck-deep in commercial terrain work, so it might be a while.... :(

Anyhow..... a fast summary.....

Your primary "objects bank" is of course, the Arma2/OA assets... these were unpacked for you at the initial setup stage by good 'ol Arma2P (hopefully), so you should have a P:\CA\ folder which contains all the standard game objects laid out in the correct folder structure... Don't mess with this structure! - just add the models you want to use into Visitors "Natural" or "Artificial" objects sections and use them on your terrain...

In game, since that P:\CA\ setup mimics the Game's internal structure, all the objects will be "found" and used no problems...

External 3rd party model packs work in exactly the same way.... You need to find out what their internal structure is - and mimic that on your P:\ drive... let's pick a popular one and take a look at a practical example....

Eeeh..... let's look at Berghoff's African Foliage as a popular example of an external models pack...

OK... you've decided you're going to use these trees in your project, you've downloaded the latest Berghoff pack and the result was a "brg_africa_1.23" zip file..... unzip that, and you find the important stuff - "brg_africa.pbo" and it's associated .brg.bisign file.

Since you'll be using these trees on your terrain, they're now a "required addon"... you'll need this pack loaded along with your terrain when it comes to game-time, so stick a copy of both files in your terrain modfolder - that way they'll always load with your terrain when it comes to in-game testing/play...

Of course - when you release your terrain to the public - they'll need a copy of Berghoff's trees too, so you'll either include it in your download, or just tell people it's a requirement... it's a popular pack - they may have it already...

Finally - and you've spotted this bit in Mondkalb's tutorial already - you need to tell your actual terrain itself that it "requires" the trees pack, so - note the actual name of the trees pack... "brg_africa.pbo" - you'll want to add this to the "required addons" section at the beginning of your config.cpp... like this...

 requiredAddons[] = {"Takistan","brg_africa"};

OK..... now - just like Arma2P did automatically with the main game assets - you need to unpack this addon to your P:\ drive... but... where do you put it??

Arma2P knew where to put all the main game content - it assembled it in a rigidly correct order - all in P:\CA\subfolders... how did it know where to put stuff???

Unpack "brg_africa" with whatever pbo unpacking tool you use - such as Mikero's "Eliteness"... you'll get a "brg_africa" folder containing all the models, with a "Data" subfolder containing all the textures... there'll be a config too, but the file we really want to take a look at is called "$PBOPREFIX$...

This is the file that Arma2P reads,,, the main Game reads it too... take a look at it in notepad... it reads "brg_africa" and nothing else...

Now.... imagine a "P:\" tacked on to the beginning of that.....

...this is where you MUST put the unpacked folder on your P:\ drive!

So - place the "brg_africa" folder directly on to your P:\ directory, so you have "P:\brg_africa\<all the tree models>"

Now you can launch Visitor, add the trees to your "Natural Objects" selection - from that location - and use them on your terrain as normal...

When it comes to in-game testing, the terrain will find all the correct assets in the expected places and everything should be fine....

B

Edited by Bushlurker

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Hi....

Bushlurker you go well beyond the call of duty in helping us all..... really superb tutorial.....Thankyou....

I too have been having the binarizing problems that others had (still to work out my problems, but I have a few ideas now).

I wanted to let everyone know of a source of terrain files for the whole UK.... for free.... legally..... legit...

(http://www.mapmaker.com/downloads/gb/Download.htm#start)

In each .zip file you will discover 7 files all geo-coordinated to the OS GB national grid.

One of them is a .ter file which is the terrain file (contour height map).

I used the mapmaker free trial version (30days)

(http://www.mapmaker.com/download.asp) to convert them from .ter to xyz. format, then use L3DT

(http://www.bundysoft.com/L3DT/downloads/) to export a .bmp (convert to greyscale and 16bit , make a .pbl file) and import into Visitor 3 .... simples ????

A bit convoluted, perhaps someone will find a more direct route....

Then you can use the .tif file (or bmp or jpg, maps of the area) from the same .zip as a satellite drape.... I also took satellite screenshots from google maps and draped those over as well.

VERY quick once you have worked out all the resolution/ import issues.... I can do a 20km x 20km terrain (USING REAL DATA) in half an hour; and imported (without any objects of course) into ARMA2. Seriously freaky to fly a Merlin over your own house, while sitting at the PC....

I only hope that all this terraining will be useful for ARMA 3 when it comes out.

Anyways... thanks again Bushlurker

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Glad you found the tutorial helpful!

I too have been having the binarizing problems that others had (still to work out my problems, but I have a few ideas now).

Most problems are something simple... triplecheck everything from start to finish and if you're still stuck - ask! Someone will almost always be able to help if you post a reasonably coherent question.....

I wanted to let everyone know of a source of terrain files for the whole UK.... for free.... legally..... legit...

(http://www.mapmaker.com/downloads/gb/Download.htm#start)

Impressive find! Well done! And thanks very much for sharing the link!

Coincidentally, just days after your post, I was asked to prep a little chunk of British coastline as a "feasibility study" terrain demo - an ideal chance to try out this fast access, minimum fuss basic data.....

First thing I did, after downloading a few relevant grid subsections, was to load all the data into Global Mapper.... that worked fine in all cases - from there following my usual routine, same as yourself, I had a "here you go - have a fly around" demo working in-game within an hour! Brilliant!...

However, as I usually do, I tried the same data direct to some of the "free options" software - not everyone has access to GM...

The ".ter" heightmap files seem to be some sort of variation on the "terragen" format, however, Terragen itself doesn't seem to like them, neither does L3DT, Leveller, Qgis, or any other normally ".ter" compliant program I tried - apart from Global Mapper, which seems to load just about anything...

Since they load fine into Mapmaker demo itself, I suspect the headers for these files have been tweaked - something which most other programs trip over, but GM simply ignores...

Still - Mapmaker itself is available as a demo, so if you wanted to use this data that'd be your best bet - for these slightly odd .ter heightmaps at least...

I used the mapmaker free trial version (30days)

(http://www.mapmaker.com/download.asp) to convert them from .ter to xyz. format, then use L3DT

(http://www.bundysoft.com/L3DT/downloads/) to export a .bmp (convert to greyscale and 16bit , make a .pbl file) and import into Visitor 3 .... simples ????

A bit convoluted, perhaps someone will find a more direct route....

Once you've exported your .xyz from Mapmaker, technically you could go direct to Visitor if you like - it accepts .xyz imports, though L3DT's a good choice for coastline tweaking, etc...

Depending on the resolution you exported the .xyz from Mapmaker in, you might also want to do some cell-size resampling in L3DT... these basic .ter files seem to be derived from British Ordnance Survey data - approx 50m res...

Once you're done in L3DT, again, you can use .xyz as your export format - it'll load directly to Visitor3 without any need for the .pbl file stage....

The other enclosed files with these "tilesets" are handy too - basically they're raster "street/topo" maps in two different scales... most useable is the ".tif" file which is roughly comparable with ready made Open Streetmap level-of-detail... very useful for roads planning, etc...

These .tif files DO load quite happily in Qgis and most other suitable programs - no messing with headers there... They come with .tfw "worldfiles" which plant them where they're supposed to go in GIS programs - no problems at all...

(But no matching ".prj" projection file however.... use "British Grid" on import, with your project configured for "UTM WGS1984" for best results...)

VERY quick once you have worked out all the resolution/ import issues.... I can do a 20km x 20km terrain (USING REAL DATA) in half an hour; and imported (without any objects of course) into ARMA2. Seriously freaky to fly a Merlin over your own house, while sitting at the PC.

Once you get your head around the basics, if you have data available it's surprising just how fast you can throw a terrain in-game! Impresses people no end... ;)

I only hope that all this terraining will be useful for ARMA 3 when it comes out.

Basic structures and procedures, the basic fileset you're learning to use - none of these will change substantially in Arma 3, so pretty much everything you're learning right now will be relevant and will be handy in the future....

And it's fun too!..... :)

B

Edited by Bushlurker

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Once you get your head around the basics, if you have data available it's surprising just how fast you can throw a terrain in-game! Impresses people no end... ;)

Oh you sly fox you, you make it sound so easy. It were remarks like these that got me in the howhardcoulditbe-mindset, now look at the mess I'm in.

Got to hand it to you though, there are worse ways to spend your time.

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HI! Congratulations for tutorial.É the best I found, very explanatory.

I wish I could explain these lines of log file (after bin):

1 -Cannot register unknown string STR_STATE_HEALSOLDIER (many lines)

2 - Warning: CfgVehicles missing in PreloadConfig - may slow down vehicle creation (many lines)

3 - Updating base class ->UAV, by p:\bush\ca\air2\mq9predatorb\config.cpp/CfgVehicles/MQ9PredatorB/ (many liness)

4 - bush\afghanvalley\data\layers\p_004-012_n_n_l02.rvmat->P:\Bin_Temp\bush\afghanvalley\data\layers\p_004-012_n_n_l02.rvmat (many lines lol)

5 _ Warning: Embedded material ca\plants_e\clutter\data\c_grass_desert.rvmat differs - repack data

source used: ca\plants_e\clutter\c_brush_hard_ep1.p3d

source ignored: ca\plants_e\clutter\c_plants_white_ep1.p3d

hint: ca\plants_e\clutter\c_brush_hard_ep1.p3d is older

This is the ingame map. I think you're missing some clutters....(or not?)

This is the AfghanValley unchanged. I do not see all the clutters .. (something wrong?)

IngameAFH.jpg

tks!

Edited by VovoNauta

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Oh you sly fox you, you make it sound so easy.

It is pretty easy, you should know that by now Joe! ;)

It were remarks like these that got me in the howhardcoulditbe-mindset, now look at the mess I'm in.

And look at the fun you're having!

there are worse ways to spend your time.

No kidding!

I do this stuff for a living nowadays, so - I make terrains all day and then, in the evenings, I... make terrains! :D

As a result I've got quite practised with the "basics" but, some things never change...

Miro, Earl, Richard_K... these people are the Giants of pro terrain-making... I read their tutorials, apologise for disturbing them then ask them totally dumb questions on Skype or via PM.... Sound familiar???

----------------------

HI! Congratulations for tutorial.É the best I found, very explanatory.

You're very welcome - delighted you've found it useful....

1 -Cannot register unknown string STR_STATE_HEALSOLDIER (many lines)

Ignore all these sort of messages - they aren't "errors" as such... it's just the "P:\drive version" of the game not recognising lines in.... your buldozer.profile file probably... no matter - autoignore string errors like these...

2 - Warning: CfgVehicles missing in PreloadConfig - may slow down vehicle creation (many lines)

Same as above - Development tools hiccup - it doesn't slow things down afaik - ignore these too...

3 - Updating base class ->UAV, by p:\bush\ca\air2\mq9predatorb\config.cpp/CfgVehicles/MQ9PredatorB/ (many liness)

Once again - this is just the Dev Tools not quite agreeing with the more up-to-date game content you have unpacked onto P:\ - don't worry about this sort of message either - you'll see a lot of them... Safe to ignore...

4 - bush\afghanvalley\data\layers\p_004-012_n_n_l02.rvmat->P:\Bin_Temp\bush\afghanvalley\data\layers\p_004-012_n_n_l02.rvmat (many lines lol)

No kidding! - there will be many - this is more "reporting" than "error or warning" - it's just saying what it's doing.... no problems here... if there weren't such messages you'd have cause for concern...

5 _ Warning: Embedded material ca\plants_e\clutter\data\c_grass_desert.rvmat differs - repack data

source used: ca\plants_e\clutter\c_brush_hard_ep1.p3d

source ignored: ca\plants_e\clutter\c_plants_white_ep1.p3d

hint: ca\plants_e\clutter\c_brush_hard_ep1.p3d is older

I see this one all the time too - not absolutely sure of the exact cause for this one... dodgy OA model I suspect... however, in practise, it seems to make no practical difference, so I ignore this one too - so far without noticing any ill-effects...

So - you're in luck... there's no actual showstopper "errors" here at all - nothing to be concerned about... Good that you noticed them though - and asked!... The .log is a Handy Thing... when real errors do occur - that's the first place to look...

One point I should mention....In several of the paths above it says "P:\bush\etc\etc"... this betrays the fact you have the sample files in a P:\"Bush" namespace...

That's cool as a "quick check" of the source files (they work fine), but it's no substitute for actually following through the tutorial - actually doing the laborious line-by-line renaming and repathing... In the future you'll usually just mass-rename, or search-'n-replace to do this sort of job, but first time around, its a good idea to do it manually... it makes you look at the files you're using line-by-line, and as a by product you start to gain an inkling of what they do and how they work, which in turn will stand you in good stead when you "go freestyle" and have a go at your own first project from scratch...

Anyhow... good luck with that - any issues, ask here!

*edit

This is the ingame map. I think you're missing some clutters....(or not?)

This is the AfghanValley unchanged. I do not see all the clutters .. (something wrong?)

Actually - I'm pretty sure that IS all the clutter there's supposed to be... it's pretty sparse... you can change that of course - see "CfgSurfaces.hpp" in the Guide...

B

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It is pretty easy, you should know that by now Joe! ;)

Touche. I have indeed nobody to blame but myself for making things hard by making a map riddled with waterways.

Miro, Earl, Richard_K... these people are the Giants of pro terrain-making... I read their tutorials, apologise for disturbing them then ask them totally dumb questions on Skype or via PM.... Sound familiar???

It does sound familiar indeed and I'm still very grateful for your patience and help. I bow my head to the new master of pro terrain-making.

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It does sound familiar indeed and I'm still very grateful for your patience and help

:D.... didn't mean that personally or anything.... just meant that I'm a beginner all over again myself! :)

B

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