Plane and Helicopter handling

[Tonci87 163]

But you can if you wish to, and you are able to do it with M+K

It should be the same with Helis.

More realism is of course always welcome both in tanks and helis

[CarlGustaffa 4]

What if uber realism means it can't be used with M+K? Bringing down the realism to do it is one thing, but it has to be server controlled. Although I prefer being able to set minimum allowed realism for a certain part than completely dictate it. Which means that I can setup server to allow certain unrealistic aids, but you could bring that above server settings for yourself. But you couldn't go below it. It's what keeps me from playing Arma at anything except Expert these days, as pretty much all "Veteran" public servers I have tried still allows 3rd person and crosshairs, and I can't get rid of those crosshairs.

I really don't understand the claim of wanting to be realistic, but no way on getting the equipment. Joystick and more specifically pedals, we're not talking many hours at work to get those...

What I'm saying is that if it can be made playable with M+K, then by all means do it. But if it can't (on high realism setting), don't dumb it down to allow it.

[NoRailgunner 0]

Some players are quite good flying aircrafts with mouse + keyboard - why should they be forced to buy/use anything more to enjoy A3?

Just because few uberl33t flightsim-fans don't like to see those others good A2OA/A3 pilots who are using only their mouse+keyboard?

Do you really care if a player is using the (latest) hardware flightstick/controllers to fly an aircraft?

Or is it more important that the player is a good pilot?

[5LEvEN 11]

I know for a fact that on hardcore flight simulators you can fly with M+K, but it will not be as easy as flying with a joystick....

---------- Post added at 06:11 PM ---------- Previous post was at 06:09 PM ----------

Some players are quite good flying aircrafts with mouse + keyboard - why should they be forced to buy/use anything more to enjoy A3?

Just because few uberl33t flightsim-fans don't like to see those others good A2OA/A3 pilots who are using only their mouse+keyboard?

Do you really care if a player is using the (latest) hardware flightstick/controllers to fly an aircraft?

Or is it more important that the player is a good pilot?

Why should pilots be forced with an arcade level simulation because people are unwilling to buy a joystick, or are unwilling to adjust their M+K setup to fly? You do know all vehicles are at arcade level simulation right now right? So people who fly good with M+K are only flying an arcade simulation, not the realistic simulations. This has nothing to do with the skill of the pilot. This has to do with making the aircraft more Realistic.

[NoRailgunner 0]

If a player can handle A3 aircrafts fine with his controllers he should be allowed to do it on any setting. No need to force or punish anyone just because few people have a strange problem with controllers or how good others are flying only with mouse + keyboard.

If you want to be good - you have to practice, no matter which controller you choose + use. If you want to be perfect/ace - you have to practice much more.

[Tonci87 163]

If a player can handle A3 aircrafts fine with his controllers he should be allowed to do it on any setting. No need to force or punish anyone just because few people have a strange problem with controllers or how good others are flying only with mouse + keyboard.

If you want to be good - you have to practice, no matter which controller you choose + use. If you want to be perfect/ace - you have to practice much more.

This!

[PuFu 4591]

Some players are quite good flying aircrafts with mouse + keyboard - why should they be forced to buy/use anything more to enjoy A3?

Just because few uberl33t flightsim-fans don't like to see those others good A2OA/A3 pilots who are using only their mouse+keyboard?

Do you really care if a player is using the (latest) hardware flightstick/controllers to fly an aircraft?

Or is it more important that the player is a good pilot?

I guess the point he is trying to make is a bit different, and you misinterpreted:

1. no one will deny the use of M+K setups. That for certain.

2 BUT, just like with TKOH, i find flying with a joystick much easier and worthy, especially on higher difficulty. I have tried it with my mouse and keyboard, i find it a lot harder especially when it comes to (re)adjusting.

So all in all, most of you want improved flight model, but want it developed around what? Mouse and keyboard? Surely, some might get to master flying with mouse and keyboard in TKOH just as well, but it's surely harder than in A2, and that is for a good reason.

I want a proper flight model. I don't care that it might be harder to master, or if the learning curve will be higher. Surely, it might mean that joystick might actually make sense now, but far from denying the use of mouse and keyboard setups.

Edited November 7, 2011 by PuFu

[ghost101 10]

Ideally, I would love a fully developed simulation in all aspects of ArmA. But i don't think that's a realistic wish. I guess the development costs of producing vehicle simlevels anything close to something like MSFlightSim would be out of the question for BIS.

However, I would definitely like to see at least some effort in giving more of an impression of realism. at the moment, driving and flying seem far too cartoony when compared to infantry play - particularly flight. When I first played ArmA, I didn't appreciate being able to fly an F16 like a pro within the first 15 mins. there should definitely be a higher degree of skill and learning involved. I'm sure this could be done by selecting a few key flight attributes to simulate more fully; not a full sim, just some key aspects of flight which would make the whole experience more realistic and more challenging without attempting a full blown-sim (which I reckon would be impossible anyway, given BIS's limited budget)

[MD500Enthusiast 10]

Some players are quite good flying aircrafts with mouse + keyboard - why should they be forced to buy/use anything more to enjoy A3?

Just because few uberl33t flightsim-fans don't like to see those others good A2OA/A3 pilots who are using only their mouse+keyboard?

Do you really care if a player is using the (latest) hardware flightstick/controllers to fly an aircraft?

Or is it more important that the player is a good pilot?

you keep missing the point we're all trying to make here, either that or you don't even bother reading carefully before posting.

i'm saying if the helicopter flight model is realistic in the way that it would act the way a helicopter is supposed to then your mouse/keyboard setup wouldn't have a chance in hell of flying it properly. BiS has stated that they will use the ToH helicopter behaviors in Arma3 so good luck with your keyboard/mouse setup on expert mode. your teammates will be yelling and screaming bloody murder because you can't even take off without crashing.

i'm not saying ToH behaves like the real thing right now but BiS is working on it and it's a heck of a lot better than arma2 that's for sure.

you keep gloating how well you fly in arma2 etc, you might as well be saying you fly simcopter like a pro and you'll be able to fly a real helicopter.

you can fly in beginner mode with your mouse/keyboard all you want because in that mode helicopters in toh behave like they do in arma2. you can come to the forums and gloat about how a god's gift to the helicopter community you are, nobody cares. but when you want to play on expert mode with the big boys, please get a decent setup so you don't waste people's time by crashing over and over again because you can't compensate for torque, translating tendency, vortex ring state, transverse flow

etc etc with your keyboard and mouse setup.

also do you expect any game maker to make their game with same graphics engine year after year so nobody would be forced to buy new/better hardware to play their games? life is like a parade, it's constantly moving, if you want to stand stationary on the curb you're going get to left behind.

Edited November 8, 2011 by MD500Enthusiast

[CarlGustaffa 4]

If a player can handle A3 aircrafts fine with his controllers he should be allowed to do it on any setting.

This goes for anything related to difficulty. Player should be able to set his difficulty more difficult than what the server is setup to, but not lower.

Server: Simple Flight Model

Player: Simple or Advanced, it's his choice.

Server: Advanced Flight Model

Player: Advanced, he doesn't have a choice.

That would allow me to play on coop servers with crosshairs enabled since I could turn them off for myself, rather than be stuck on an expert servers with no people on it.

[MD500Enthusiast 10]

This goes for anything related to difficulty. Player should be able to set his difficulty more difficult than what the server is setup to, but not lower.

Server: Simple Flight Model

Player: Simple or Advanced, it's his choice.

Server: Advanced Flight Model

Player: Advanced, he doesn't have a choice.

That would allow me to play on coop servers with crosshairs enabled since I could turn them off for myself, rather than be stuck on an expert servers with no people on it.

that sounds good.

[NoRailgunner 0]

Well ok, we all agree that the A3 controller setup should be up to the player. Sorry for misinterpreting CarlGustaffa's :)

What if uber realism means it can't be used with M+K? ... don't dumb it down to allow it.

Just curious why BIS should implement all/most of TOH flight features into A3? Why should people buy TOH (+DLC's) if they can have all/most of it in A3 anyway? ;)

[MD500Enthusiast 10]

civilian flying is quite a bit different than military flying. same argument could be said why would anyone buy arma3 when they can just buy toh? toh has ground units with guns and some combat ground vehicles and ah6 and huey with door gunners and rockets?

[NoRailgunner 0]

Well because

+ TOH is a little bit more focused on helicopter-sim/flight features than A3

+ A3 is a bit more of all-in-one milgame incl. land, air and sea combat and just can't have all of the sim features for every vehicle, aircraft or boat/ship.

[MD500Enthusiast 10]

exactly, because they're two different games with two distinct flavors that will cater to different people. also the fact that the two games will feature helicopter is all the excuse we helicopter enthusiasts need to buy the game. just like why people buy different title FPS just for the different and distinct flavors. just as why people enjoy eating different type of food, chinese, american, italian, german etc they all provide nourishment so why bother eating different foods when you can just eat one?

Edited November 8, 2011 by MD500Enthusiast

[Tonci87 163]

you keep missing the point we're all trying to make here, either that or you don't even bother reading carefully before posting.

i'm saying if the helicopter flight model is realistic in the way that it would act the way a helicopter is supposed to then your mouse/keyboard setup wouldn't have a chance in hell of flying it properly. BiS has stated that they will use the ToH helicopter behaviors in Arma3 so good luck with your keyboard/mouse setup on expert mode. your teammates will be yelling and screaming bloody murder because you can't even take off without crashing.

i'm not saying ToH behaves like the real thing right now but BiS is working on it and it's a heck of a lot better than arma2 that's for sure.

you keep gloating how well you fly in arma2 etc, you might as well be saying you fly simcopter like a pro and you'll be able to fly a real helicopter.

you can fly in beginner mode with your mouse/keyboard all you want because in that mode helicopters in toh behave like they do in arma2. you can come to the forums and gloat about how a god's gift to the helicopter community you are, nobody cares. but when you want to play on expert mode with the big boys, please get a decent setup so you don't waste people's time by crashing over and over again because you can't compensate for torque, translating tendency, vortex ring state, transverse flow

etc etc with your keyboard and mouse setup.

also do you expect any game maker to make their game with same graphics engine year after year so nobody would be forced to buy new/better hardware to play their games? life is like a parade, it's constantly moving, if you want to stand stationary on the curb you're going get to left behind.

I think you are the only one who wants to make a point here.

DCS is not my first fly sim, in fact I started with the old F/A 18 Hornet, guess what, I used my Mouse and Keyboard, to great success.

Combat flight simulator was another game I played. M+K worked just fine. And so on....

And BTW, ToH is also perfectly playable with M+K.

Oh, and all those games were played with max realism.

In fact the only game I ever saw where a Joystick would have been a good thing was the old Lock ON. It simply didn´t have proper M+K support at all.

The input device doesn´t matter at all, everything depends on how good you use it.

[dmarkwick 261]

The input device doesn´t matter at all, everything depends on how good you use it.

That's what I keep telling her.

[MD500Enthusiast 10]

I think you are the only one who wants to make a point here.

DCS is not my first fly sim, in fact I started with the old F/A 18 Hornet, guess what, I used my Mouse and Keyboard, to great success.

Combat flight simulator was another game I played. M+K worked just fine. And so on....

And BTW, ToH is also perfectly playable with M+K.

Oh, and all those games were played with max realism.

In fact the only game I ever saw where a Joystick would have been a good thing was the old Lock ON. It simply didn´t have proper M+K support at all.

The input device doesn´t matter at all, everything depends on how good you use it.

This is getting nowhere, fixed wings are inherently easier to fly than helicopters by leaps and bounds. Toh still has an arcade like flight model which I hope bis will fix soon, and can you honestly tell me you can fly all the different helos in toh even though its still arcade like on expert smoothly without pressing autohover all the time? Please reread the effects of helicopter on a realistic setting where it will be next to impossible to counter and fly smoothly in my other post. Fyi I also played f18 hornet with k/m setup because that was the second game I ve ever played on my first pc, though I didn't play the game for long. as games get more and more true to life k/m setup just won't be sufficient anymore.

[-Coulum- 35]

Just curious why BIS should implement all/most of TOH flight features into A3? Why should people buy TOH (+DLC's) if they can have all/most of it in A3 anyway?

I think it would be really neat if BIS made TOH not only a standalone game but also an expansion to arma 3's flight. If you have just arma 3 you get the standard arcadish flying. If you bought both you would be able to use TOH features in arma 3. I would buy TOH in a second.

[On_Sabbatical 11]

This logic of "making it feel like a sim but not to the point to make people angry" is absurd for me,either you do it right or you don't do it at all.

I'd like to see some real planes behaviour ... what you can sacrify is the part where you have to start the plane it's acceptable... but when it comes to the plane control it should feel REAL.

[dysta 10]

This logic of "making it feel like a sim but not to the point to make people angry" is absurd for me,either you do it right or you don't do it at all.

I'd like to see some real planes behaviour ... what you can sacrify is the part where you have to start the plane it's acceptable... but when it comes to the plane control it should feel REAL.

Sounds like a F-16 pilot have to relearn a whole lesson for a year to get a chance to fly F-35. But well, if there's an year to make player relearn the flying technique I'm up for such challence. (A game with no challence is no game at all)

[nodunit 397]

Half of that time comes down to learning the instruments, cockpit layout and functions of said instruments..I don't see that happening though.

That said it would be amazing to see frame stress damage and other obstacles that would blot a player from using birds recklessly, as annoying as it can something be the engine overspeed in TKOH makes for a nice challenge to keep ones self in line whereas currently the worst you have to worry about is 'braking' and zooming up into the sky or turning and smacking belly first into an obststruction.

Edited November 9, 2011 by NodUnit

[freeman83 10]

Im just getting in to mil sims so im a bit of a noob, but coming from a background of sim racing and karting in rl, i wish i could use some of those skills in Arma2. Maybe rock crawling over ruff terrain could be fun. I wouldn't even mind if the flying was more sim like, the challenge is enjoyable and eventually succeeding is satisfying. That's just me though, i suppose BIS have got to think of the bigger picture in regards to target audience.

[nodunit 397]

Probably so, well maybe..it depends on how they are thinking of reaching out, streaming the interface a bit more, perhaps chunk a key or two in combination with another or work on mowing down the action menu (like how salute went from action menu to \ in Arma)

Rock climbing and other ways to pass around terrain obstacles would be a great addition for sure! I hope that this is enforced in some of the under water features...but that is a discussion for another topic.. Mind you I'm not saying that BI should target US, I'm just suggesting that having tools and requirements to move around certain kinds of terrain and hidden areas so to speak would add a nice level of uniqueness. As it stands all hills can be accessed by walking up a slope rather than requiring any form of climbing equipment.

[EDcase 87]

We know ARMA3 will have helicopter FM from ToH (in some form)

But what about planes? The fixed wing FM needs some work too...