Cover system for Arma3?

[r3volution 0]

I know this is a topic of fairly heated debate given its association with, how do I put this delicately, the more 'arcade-ish' section of the market, but I'm curious to see how the Arma userbase feels on the topic.

Would Arma3 benefit from some kind of cover system, the ability to 'lock' to cover by keystroke and then be able to return fire and pop out of cover directionally?

I will admit I never played Op. Flashpoint as that was before my PC gaming days, but having played Arma, Arma2 and Arrowhead for a sum total of probably well over a few thousand hours, I feel like the AI could use the help that a cover-based system could bring. I know many people play Arma for the vehicle combat, but for me its all about the infantry, and the AI infantry behaviour (even when improved with mods) is vastly at odds with how you see soldiers behave in actual combat. A cover system could improve the ability of the AI to survive firefights and to actually resemble a trained fighting force, as opposed to fighting like an army of child soldiers thinking they're protected by witchcraft.

I'll admit, a cover system is not the only way to improve the AI with regards to its infantry co-ordination and survival qualities, but I think it would give it a substantial leg up as well as making the game more engaging for the player.

I'm well prepared to get ripped a new one on this though, so fire away.

*Edit* I just want to clarify I'm not in favour of any kind of 3rd person cover mechanic, unless that's the general view option being used. First person for immersion!

Edited May 24, 2011 by r3volution
Nubbly forgot to specify!

[OB1 10]

im not going to tear you a new one.. try keep this thread diplomatic as possible aye ?

basically no, I think they almost got it right now.. you get shot at and you panic, your aim is all over the place and you cannot shoot strait. This forces you to take cover and recover... If only they can make this affect AI in the same way...

In terms of PvP multilayer its been nailed... if someone gets the shot off first, the person on the receiving end is strait away at a disadvantage.. Supressive fire works perfectly...

[-Puma- 2]

Well In real world the lean against walls , so why not in ARMA 3. Im really hoping they will implement this. allso i owuld like to see the ability to "rest" ur weapon on a for example a stone wall to reduce the recoil.

[rye1 21]

Mmm... aslong as you can penetrate the walls (link to destructable environment) and there's no over the top blind firing at every turn. I can see it turning into too quick of an animation and not going so well, I like the system it has now...

[OB1 10]

Well In real world the lean against walls , so why not in ARMA 3. Im really hoping they will implement this. allso i owuld like to see the ability to "rest" ur weapon on a for example a stone wall to reduce the recoil.

as long as its not 3rd person and you have full control of your movement on the wall...

basically if they implement it like 'Vegas' 1&2.. that would be a fail...

[AnimalMother92 10]

Hmmm, I think it would be tricky to pull off but could potentially be really amazing. If anyone has played Killzone 2 or 3 singleplayer, I thought that cover system was pretty well done.

[jhoson14 10]

If its like Red Orchestra 2 cover, or even more realistic... would love to have.

Edit:

Video showing a ingame footage of RO2 with a little use of the cover system:

Edited May 24, 2011 by jhoson14

[mr. bravo 17]

For AI? Yes.

For real players? No.

I dont need a system to keep me in cover, and I really hate the feeling of being more or less "locked" in certain positions or movements. When using TrackIR to move your head separately and lean around corners, while also being able to lower/safety your weapon, you can easily control your character in cover and tight spaces without bomping around like a dinosaur or spinning around like a ballerina. It's very good as it is compared to all other games. Only thing that slows us down is the current stupid animation-system, which is hopefully improved for A3 :)

For AI it would obviously do a lot of good though, making them use their environment in a much better and safer way. At least as long as they still move from cover and not just staying there :p

[r3volution 0]

Not having use the TrackIR system at any point I can't comment on how that affects the cover experience but I do imagine it improves how Arma2 works in terms of being in cover vs looking around...

That Red Orchestra 2 vid is a pretty good example of the kind of thing I'm talking about, subtle and 1st person, key activated rather than automatic and it doesn't seem to have much of a 'locked in' feel to it, as much as you can tell from a video.

I know that some players may not feel they need a cover system, but the obvious joy of the key activated one is that if you want, you never have to use it. Its effectively an opt-in cover system rather than automatic and forcing you into it.

Edited May 24, 2011 by r3volution

[jhoson14 10]

You dont get glued to the wall, to get out of cover just move back or to the side.

Was trying to find a certain video wich really shows read orchestra 2 cover system, but havent been able to find it. Will try again later and will post here.

[dmarkwick 261]

A more fluid and precise movement would be appreciated. It's be good to very slightly raise my head to peep over or around objects from any stance, TIR 6DoF + keypress could be implemented as the control device.

Currently I use 3rd person to peep over & around stuff, I don't see it as a cheat I see it as a workaround for reduced realism :)

[wolfbite 8]

Erm i would mind something that flattens you up against the wall... Its annoying trying to lean round only to get shot in the leg because the current lean is a bit... erm dodgy? If I was leanish I'd try to keep as much of me behind the wall as poss.

I'm not really bothered about blindfire... If they implemented it .. it should have the accuracy of when you're running with an mg...

[OB1 10]

Currently I use 3rd person to peep over & around stuff, I don't see it as a cheat I see it as a workaround for reduced realism :)

This is why I play on server with expert enabled, to stop people like you cheating :p

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a comment about that red orchestra cover system thing.... 'terrible' just my opinion...

[maddogx 13]

I'm all for a cover system, as long as it's done properly. :)

[dmarkwick 261]

This is why I play on server with expert enabled, to stop people like you cheating :p

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a comment about that red orchestra cover system thing.... 'terrible' just my opinion...

Aha.... so you're saying you prefer reduced realism ;) :D

[KEVINMGXP 20]

This is why I play on server with expert enabled, to stop people like you cheating :p

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a comment about that red orchestra cover system thing.... 'terrible' just my opinion...

this is debatable, the third person view gives you in fact that what the op is asking in a surtain dagree, i mean ( so you're boddy won't be exposed immidiatly ) but i aggree i am not in favour of a cover system as the op is saying, keep the third person view for that is well anough.

You have the cover and peek around the corner it is not cheating! in first person it is like you have horse laps on your're eyes and in first person pc games it is alsways been that way and i disliked that in every game so far thats why i love the fact you have the third person view in arma.

if i am in real world i can peek up, down and arround a corner without exposing my self and still have the freedom to move where i want when i want and in ArmA2 the 3th person view does just that, although maybe it would be a little more realistic if the 3th person can't roll out that far like you can look over a building and way out of the second corner sometimes, it should be just so that you can peek arround the first corner and over low ridges or lower walls nothing more but yeah everything can be tweeked or have some improvement, i meen everyone has hes or her opinion on sertain points.

kind regards

Edited May 24, 2011 by KBourne

[PuFu 4591]

I would prefer to be able to peek in 1st person. The only cover system i have seen and liked was the one in RO2, together with it's rest-on feature (for weapons with bipods)

[2nd ranger 282]

A more fluid and precise movement would be appreciated. It's be good to very slightly raise my head to peep over or around objects from any stance

I wouldn't mind a 'stick-to-wall' cover system, but I'd prefer this, what they call 'Fluid Posture' in Raven Shield. I think you just held the shift key and moved the mouse, and you could incrementally lean or raise/lower your stance as much as you wanted. I think the AI should use a 'sticky' cover system because it would make them harder to hit and have the added benefit of making them look more human.

[maddogx 13]

I wouldn't mind a 'stick-to-wall' cover system, but I'd prefer this, what they call 'Fluid Posture' in Raven Shield. I think you just held the shift key and moved the mouse, and you could incrementally lean or raise/lower your stance as much as you wanted. I think the AI should use a 'sticky' cover system because it would make them harder to hit and have the added benefit of making them look more human.

100% agree with this.

[smookie 11]

Red Orchestra cover system while very similiar to Crysis 2 (dunno which one is the rip off another;P) is extremely arcadish and I am suprised to hear "like" comments from realism crowd ;) Imho, cover system in first person, as experienced in CGA, is extremely difficult to implement for the first person without having it look ridiculous or lose the "simulation" feel.

[Make Love Not War 10]

I know many people play Arma for the vehicle combat, but for me its all about the infantry <snip>

Ditto.

<snip> the AI infantry behaviour (even when improved with mods) is vastly at odds with how you see soldiers behave in actual combat. A cover system could improve the ability of the AI to survive firefights and to actually resemble a trained fighting force <snip>

Dead on observations about the AI. But, to be glib, I have to say that not having the benefits of a more advanced cover system is the least of the AI's worries. You won't see a drastic improvement in the AI combat behaviour without other, key improvements in the AI first. I don't want to hijack the thread, so I'll just give a quick example: what is the point of indivdual soldiers taking cover if they don't have an overall plan of attack (or defense) in the first place? Sure, it will take longer to kill them, but they'll still end up dead.

Or, to rephrase a little: a better cover system for the AI would not be without its uses (and I would certainly welcome it), but it's approaching the overall AI problem from a bottom-up angle whereas IMO BIS needs to be over-hauling big chunks of the AI from a top-down perspective.

Also, in terms of more intricate player interactions with cover, you might want to take a look at:

http://forums.bistudio.com/showthread.php?t=115889

Perhaps something along these lines might be what you're looking for?

[metalcraze 290]

A cover system was invented to compensate for the inability of gamepads in console shooters to be fast and precise - by forcing the character into only 1 dimension of movement.

Same goes for enemies - they are locked to specially pre-placed boxes so you won't have to aim at them, just wait till their head pops up and press fire.

It doesn't improve any "immersion", it just makes a gameplay much slower and clunky and removes all remaining realism - turning it into a whac-a-mole.

So a big fat NO

Use the lean key.

Edited May 24, 2011 by metalcraze

[maddogx 13]

A cover system was invented to compensate for the inability of gamepads in console shooters to be fast a precise - by forcing the character into only 1 dimension of movement.

It doesn't improve any "immersion", it just makes a gameplay much slower and clunky.

So a bit fat NO

Use the lean key.

It seems you have a rather narrow view on what a cover system could be.

[metalcraze 290]

It seems you have a rather narrow view on what a cover system could be.

ArmA2 already has a perfect "cover system" where you are not limited in anything.

Use anything for cover you want in any way you want.

I don't want ArmA to turn into an empty field full of boxes that don't make any sense. Keep that shit to consoles where it belongs.

[smookie 11]

MadDogX, please don't feed the troll. Metalcraze has proved himself as generally speaking narrow-viewed person in each of his 933 (and i suppose there is gonna be 934rd coming right after mine) posts.

Cover system is designed to speed up the pace of the game and get rid of ridiculous Stand/Crouch behaviour or leaning around the corner repeatedly pressing left or right button.