missleading meaning of language for non-native

sometimes English dual sense can mislead someone who is not native

can you clarify something to me ?

ho can you divide :

- this man is lying/lies (tell things that are not true)

- this man is lying/lies (lies on coach, on sofa , on bed)

Metallica in one song has following lyrics " than make me miss you"

missing someone - i haven't seen you for long time, i would like to see you again, i feel sorrow that i cannot see you

missing someone- i was walking streen, Tom/John walked by, i haven't seen them, i missed them while they walking the same street at same time

or i was too late on bus station and bus/train gone , i missed train

what Metallica (RELOAD) wanted to say "than make me miss you" ???

pathetic:

in Polish laguage "patetyczny" means "something very big, very proud, very official, very important"

and in dictionary pathetic is near "bombastic"

but pathetic also means "bad, should feel shame, ugly and unworthy"

how can you divide which pathetic is complement and which not ?

if someone say "your job is pathetic" than how can you know if he said "it is bad and unworthy" or "it is mega super serious, it is monumental like novel of Nobelist or military march music or anthem of country "

those : pathetic, lie, miss have 2 opposite senses in English

how you divide it using English as natural language ??

Edited March 8, 2010 by vilas

For the most part you'll have to decide which meaning is meant by the context, or by applying the "what's most likely" rule. Usually it's not too difficult, as long as you know all the other context, so if someone said to you "the last time I met John he was lying" could mean either of the meanings I suppose, so you would need to know more about the context.

"Pathetic" only has one meaning in English, so there's no problem with that :)

Unfortunately I do not know the Metallica song so I cannot glean the context from that one single snippet. If that's all there is, then using the "what's most likely" rule would mean sorrow for not seeing you.

You can't confuse them unless you don't know what people are talking about to begin with.

The lyrics are from Metallica's Carpe Diem Baby.

It seems to mean to me exactly what he says. He's asking someone to give him a reason to miss him/her. Probably a her.

why google translator show:

patetyczny

przymiotnik (adjective)

1. pathetic

2. bombastic

3. turgid

4. grandiloquent

5. pompous

------------------

pathetic

przymiotnik (adjective)

1. patetyczny (too serious, too popous)

2. wzruszajÄ…cy (feel to cry)

3. dramatyczny (dramatic)

4. nastrojowy (get you in the mood)

5. daremny (unworthy, worthless)

Edited March 8, 2010 by vilas

sometimes English dual sense can mislead someone who is not native

can you clarify something to me ?

ho can you divide :

- this man is lying/lies (tell things that are not true)

- this man is lying/lies (lies on coach, on sofa , on bed)

Metallica in one song has following lyrics " than make me miss you"

missing someone - i haven't seen you for long time, i would like to see you again, i feel sorrow that i cannot see you

missing someone- i was walking streen, Tom/John walked by, i haven't seen them, i missed them while they walking the same street at same time

or i was too late on bus station and bus/train gone , i missed train

what Metallica (RELOAD) wanted to say "than make me miss you" ???

pathetic:

in Polish laguage "patetyczny" means "something very big, very proud, very official, very important"

and in dictionary pathetic is near "bombastic"

but pathetic also means "bad, should feel shame, ugly and unworthy"

how can you divide which pathetic is complement and which not ?

if someone say "your job is pathetic" than how can you know if he said "it is bad and unworthy" or "it is mega super serious, it is monumental like novel of Nobelist or military march music or anthem of country "

those : pathetic, lie, miss have 2 opposite senses in English

how you divide it using English as natural language ??

1. If someone is lying on something, then what they are lying down on will always be specified (At least in American English): "He is lying on the bed", "The book is lying on the table", "We are lying down", "The body is lying in the casket. The preposition will probably be something like: on, in, aboard, upon...

If "lying" is defined as "telling falsehoods", then the subject will either be lying to someone or will simply said to "be lying": "He is lying to her", "She is lying". If it's said that "X is lying", and nothing else is said, then the presumed definition of "lying" is "telling falsehoods".

2. "Pathetic" is presumed to be mean "Small", "helpless", "Shameful", "pitiful", or other such things. I've never heard it used in a different way.

Edited March 8, 2010 by Sertorius21

why google translator show:

Because it's a translator, they are never accurate ;)

There is a website which runs your English input through translators to several languages and then back to English. Sadly I don't have the link anymore, but sometimes the output was simply unbelievably hilarious :D

BTW, pathetic doesn't have any meanings close to bombastic.

Edited March 8, 2010 by Deadfast

hmmm i took old paper dictionary from 1989 (thick book)

PATHETIC means "marked by strong emotions", "pitiful, sad", "pathos"

WTF ??????????????

why dictionary from 1989 shows "pathetic" as "positive word" ??

man, it is sick if official dictionaries twist words :( :( :( :(

pathos is something good, pathos means "big reason to be proud" isn't it ?

Edited March 8, 2010 by vilas

pathos is something good, pathos means "big reason to be proud" isn't it ?

Sadly, no it doesn't :)

What is the Polish root of the word? Just checked my personal pocket Russian/English dictionary (yes, I keep one in my desk drawer) :) and it lists the definition of "pathetic" as "pateticheskiy."

2. "Pathetic" is presumed to be mean "Small", "helpless", "Shameful", "pitiful", or other such things. I've never heard it used in a different way.

In French neither.

hmmm i took old paper dictionary from 1989 (thick book)

PATHETIC means "marked by strong emotions", "pitiful, sad", "pathos"

WTF ??????????????

why dictionary from 1989 shows "pathetic" as "positive word" ??

man, it is sick if official dictionaries twist words :( :( :( :(

pathos is something good, pathos means "big reason to be proud" isn't it ?

"Pathos" means "something that inspires great pity". The emotion implied is very strong, but that doesn't mean that it's positive.

Your dictionary doesn't seem to describe "pathetic" as being a positive word. It is usually neutral or negative: "The pathetic child sat on the street corner, freezing in the rain". Here "pathetic" just means that the child inspires strong feelings of pity or sadness. "Pathetic" can also be used to mean "wimpy" or "shameful". It's actually less of a negative word than it often seems. The solid definition of "pathetic" really means "inspiring pity". If a child inspires pity, we see that moment as sad; If a grown man inspires pity, we are more likely to simply think that he is a loser.

And the dictionary isn't necessarily "twisting" any words. English is loaded with words with contradictory meanings. A lot of words have old or archaic definitions which, while not used in common language, are still technically considered legitimate definitions.

Edited March 8, 2010 by Sertorius21

I wonder if a dictionary from 1989 might also have a bit of political definition happening. Having studied East-West relations that same year, I would not necessarily be surprised that a definition would be twisted.

An English language article from 1988 might include: "The pathetic government of Poland seeks to end the union strikes." There might have been some value to having the immediate perception of such a sentence be positive toward the government.

I have no clue if that would be true or not, but I know some of my Soviet-era dictionaries had... well... interesting definitions. :)

The emotion implied is very strong, but that doesn't mean that it's positive.

pathos is "heroship"

pathos is "when organization has history of fight against occupant" etc.

we say about Patos of Solidarity, Patos of Officer etc.

Patos is some "values" virtues which move your heart

if something inspires great pity - it means it is heart shaking so it is good

Polega na ukazywaniu zjawisk o charakterze monumentalnym i wzniosłym o wysokich walorach uczuciowych powodujących stany napięcia emocjonalnego u odbiorców. Zastosowanie środków artystycznych głównie z zakresu retoryki.

pathos means - great feelings , monumental feeling, high emotional value, retorical meaning

so pathos is when you say "solidarity believed that all will live happy after communism fall"

patos is "Jews believed when they will win uprising they will be free and won't go to gas chamber" etc.

patos is when actor/poet asks "do you believe in your nation power" etc. in his poem/song and it is monumental

pathos is in anthem of country, pathos is in "saints" , in poem, in drama in theater

pathos is when you see soldiers with flag standing tall etc.

of course difference may come from cultural difference

for us (previously) shy, mean meant good and polite

while sefl-confident meant "rude arrogant asshole"

of course "capitalism" changed young people and they act rude and it is in their eyes "self-confidency virtue" for older it is reason for agression cause "man must be shy, polite, mean"

so maybe thats i see "pathos" as "great, good, monumental virtue about rhetorical questions" ;)

Edited March 8, 2010 by vilas

"if something inspires great pity - it means it is heart shaking"

Yes, the implication of the word "pathos" is that your heart is shaken due to sadness or tragedy. So the pathos of the Warsaw Uprising is that the Jews were fighting for their lives against overwhelming odds, and anyone watching knew that they would ultimately lose. While fighting against all odds is heroic, the feeling of pathos (At least in the English definition) is inspired because we recognize the tragedy of people fighting a battle they must fight but cannot win.

"for us (previously) shy, mean meant good and polite while self-confident meant "rude arrogant asshole""

Same thing is true in the US. "Self-confident" went from a neutral, or even negative, definition to a mostly positive definition in modern times.

Edited March 8, 2010 by Sertorius21

pathos is "heroship"

pathos is "when organization has history of fight against occupant" etc.

we say about Patos of Solidarity, Patos of Officer etc.

Patos is some "values" virtues which move your heart

if something inspires great pity - it means it is heart shaking so it is good

pathos means - great feelings , monumental feeling, high emotional value, retorical meaning

The problem lies in the difference of the adjective 'pathetic' and the noun 'pathos' - just because they stem from the same root doesn't mean they are used to describe *exacly* the same things. The noun is used in most languages that adopted the Greek word for something that is 'very emotional and/or theatrical, maybe a bit too much' (as in 'the actor played his role with lot of pathos'), while the adjective usually simply means 'something pitiful' (usually in a negative sense, like 'his pathetic speech didn't impress anyone').

But then the use of this and other words - even if they have the same root - can vary greatly between Polish, English, German, French and other languages. That's why it's usually no use translating a text word by word - and why translators not only have to be good at understanding the foreign language, but also in choosing the right words of their own to reflect the actual meaning.

Edited March 8, 2010 by Daddl

"if something inspires great pity - it means it is heart shaking"

Yes, the implication of the word "pathos" is that your heart is shaken due to sadness or tragedy. So the pathos of the Warsaw Uprising is that the Jews were fighting for their lives against overwhelming odds, and anyone watching knew that they would ultimately lose. While fighting against all odds is heroic, the feeling of pathos (At least in the English definition) is inspired because we recognize the tragedy of people fighting a battle they must fight but cannot win.

"for us (previously) shy, mean meant good and polite while self-confident meant "rude arrogant asshole""

Same thing is true in the US. "Self-confident" went from a neutral, or even negative, definition to a mostly positive definition in modern times.

Very interesting and educated post.

hmmm i took old paper dictionary from 1989 (thick book)

PATHETIC means "marked by strong emotions", "pitiful, sad", "pathos"

WTF ??????????????

why dictionary from 1989 shows "pathetic" as "positive word" ??

man, it is sick if official dictionaries twist words :( :( :( :(

pathos is something good, pathos means "big reason to be proud" isn't it ?

Pathos, as a proper noun, is Greek. It is related to the formal forms of argument which also include Logos and Ethos. Pathos is an argument style that appeals to the emotions of the audience. I don't know how, or why, Pathos would be related to the word "pathetic". They do not have similar meanings.

why translators not only have to be good at understanding the foreign language, but also in choosing the right words of their own to reflect the actual meaning.

+1

People who do "simultaneous" translating have my utmost respect. That is truly an incredible task, when done correctly.

Because it's a translator, they are never accurate ;)

There is a website which runs your English input through translators to several languages and then back to English. Sadly I don't have the link anymore, but sometimes the output was simply unbelievably hilarious :D

BTW, pathetic doesn't have any meanings close to bombastic.

http://translationparty.com

This one only translates English into Japanese. Then Japanese to English and English to Japanese and so on. :D

Vilas is taking the word Pathos to mean Friedrich Schiller's "Sublime Pathos". I'm unfamiliar with the concept, but wikipedia claims it is an aesthetic concept related to triumph over adversity. This is not an english thing, though. Friedrich Schiller was German, and his term was das Pathetisch-Erhabene. Sublime Pathos probably comes from Schiller coining a phrase related to Greek philosophy, so we have a trail of Greek => German => Greek => English.

Edited March 10, 2010 by Max Power

Shark pathos

The lyrics are from Metallica's Carpe Diem Baby.

It seems to mean to me exactly what he says. He's asking someone to give him a reason to miss him/her. Probably a her.

Carpe Diem Baby is one of my favorite songs by Metallica, but I never did get the lyrics. The "make me miss you" part is fairly clear though (as you described above), even without proper context, because the other meanings simply wouldn't make sense. At least to an english native speaker.

I understand how Vilas feels though. I grew up first in England and later in Germany, so learning both languages "natively" has given me a unique perspective into both. Lots of English words seem ambiguous if you don't fully grasp the context, while other languages have lots of different words to describe precisely what you mean.

In the case of "missing someone", germans can use "vermissen", "verfehlen", "versäumen", "verpassen" etc. Each has a different meaning, but note that the dictionary returns "miss" for each one. No wonder people have problems understanding english.

The "make me miss you" part is fairly clear though (as you described above), even without proper context, because the other meanings simply wouldn't make sense.

why ?

for me it makes sense in 2 contexts:

"you made a lot of sorrow and bad to me, so make it so, to disappear from my thoughts, make me not see you again, cause you gave me so much things i suffer from" miss like "i missed the train"

second context oposite

"i really don't care if you are here or not, you can be, you may not be, it is the same for me, than please do something that will make me feel that i must see you again, cause at the moment i don't have such need"

for me both contexts make sense equally

Edited March 10, 2010 by vilas

The first one doesn't make sense in this context.

You don't ask somebody to have him make you avoid him.