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freedom for Viktor Bout

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Frankly speaking, being from Africa, and seeing the carnage and widespread death over the past 50 years, 99% of it down the barrel of an AK47 supplied with the blessing of Russia because all they care about is money and power, I'm not surprised at your attitudes.

I am fully aware of how war is fought in Africa, I grew up in one. The USSR and latterly Russia have poured weapons into the continent. Saying the millions of resulting deaths would have happened anyway is utter garbage. Most of those AK47s were used against unarmed civilians. If everyone just had spears and machetes, villagers would have been able to fight back.

In the region where I lived in the 1980's, 20,000 - 30,000 people died (More than 1million since then). They were unarmed villagers and were executed and buried in mass graves. All at the hands of troops trained by North Korea and supplied with weapons made in the Soviet Union.

Search Gukurahundi, I hope it makes you proud to be Russian. Also have a look at Flight RH 825 or Flight RH 827 - 2 passenger airliners shot down with Russian made 9K32 “Strela-2†(SA-7) missiles. 50% of the survivors of the RH 825 were killed after they escaped the crash by terrorists with AK-47s. You can't do that with spears and machetes you know.

Calling for freedom for Victor Bout is the most ridiculous statement I have ever seen on these forums. I guess as long as someones seen to be acting against the USA their crimes don't matter to certain people here.

Edited by PELHAM

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Frankly speaking, being from Africa, and seeing the carnage and widespread death over the past 50 years, most of it down the barrel of an AK47 supplied with the blessing of Russia because all they care about is money and power, I'm not surprised at your attitudes.

O RLY? And hadn't FALs and G3s do some job? And again those AK-47s turned their owners to zombies and forced them to kill? Or the people decided to kill at first and found AK-47 most suitable for it at second?

Edited by Spooky Lynx

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O RLY? And hadn't FALs and G3s do some job? And again those AK-47s turned their owners to zombies and forced them to kill? Or the people decided to kill at first and found AK-47 most suitable for it at second?

The vast majority of weapons supplied in Africa are Soviet Derivatives, fact 1. Fact 2, an AK-47 can only be used for 1 thing, and it isn't ploughing fields. The Soviet and Russian Governments knew exactly how the weapons would be used. Carry on washing your hands of mass murder and genocide, it makes you look really cool.

Have you searched Gukurahundi and Flight RH 825 or Flight RH 827 yet? Have a look at some pictures, I'm sure it wasn't reported at the time so you probably don't know about it?

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The vast majority of weapons supplied in Africa are Soviet Derivatives, fact 1. Fact 2, an AK-47 can only be used for 1 thing, and it isn't ploughing fields. The Soviet and Russian Governments knew exactly how the weapons would be used. Carry on washing your hands of mass murder and genocide, it makes you look really cool.

I ask again: who forced those people to buy any weapons and kill each other with them? Evil greedy Soviets? Or local warlords were seeking for some stuff they could use for struggle with each other? Didn't they know that the rifles can kill (they also can kill animals and with non-collapseable stocks also may be used as hammers)? Maybe majority of weapons is of Soviet origin (but I don't believe it, because UNITA and Erithrean separatists after Ethiopia became socialist-orientated wouldn't buy anything from USSR), but who forces local people to solve their problems with weapons? Do you think that with US or European weapons they will become kinder and more humane? Do you think that without any firearms they will stop wars and won't use such ancient things like swords and arrows? Don't treat them as small children.

P.S. But if they are really so, then it's too early for them to handle independent states.

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One pawn less in the political game of power and influence. Others do and will solve their disputes behind the curtain and go on making deals in safe rooms/areas. Of course double standards, lack of morale and humanity can increase the profit - doesn't matter where he or she is coming from. Painting the world in just two colors is just easier for simple-minded people on each side.

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I would just like to remind you that Viktor is already replaced by a new "merchant of death" on the market.

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Thats true, im sure there is a queuing system for it.

Calling for freedom for Victor Bout is the most ridiculous statement I have ever seen on these forums.

I guess as long as someones seen to be acting against the USA their crimes don't matter to certain people here.

Unless ledendkiller can respond, I read it purely to highlight the double-standards and using this as the example, I personally didn't read it that he must think hes ok & should be actually be free as if he did nothing wrong none the less. I thought it was more sarcasm / Irony.

And dont bother with the "against us" thing, that's just not worth typing, lets face it anyone standing on the global moral high ground can get shot down in flames in moments looking at history and not so far back, its not just as simple as anything to hate America for forum points.

I guess as long as someones seen to be acting against the USA their crimes don't matter to certain people here.

+

and these "shady" people like Viktor are there just to make sure the governments don't get caught with their hands in a cookie jar.

Thats a good point to be mindful of too, you can see it as acting against USA, but you can also see it as finger pointing and diversion scape goating, taking the fall, used and forgotten etc, much as I bet no one will agree with that. Thats a general point mind you.

Edited by mrcash2009

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The Soviet and Russian Governments knew exactly how the weapons would be used. Carry on washing your hands of mass murder and genocide, it makes you look really cool.

PELHAM I feel sorry for your past experiences but this is just non-sense. AK-47s are made all over the world.

And FFS You can't blame Russians on this forum for murder done by some piece of shit with AK-47! Will you blame German members for holocaust? By such thinking you should also blame yourself because you're from Africa therefore you're somehow linked to those crimes. :j: Every part of the world has its share of evil history...

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I am fully aware of how war is fought in Africa, I grew up in one. The USSR and latterly Russia have poured weapons into the continent. Saying the millions of resulting deaths would have happened anyway is utter garbage. Most of those AK47s were used against unarmed civilians. If everyone just had spears and machetes, villagers would have been able to fight back.

I saw a photo from Kongo, there was about hundred of hands cut off and lying in a hill. Other photos contained civilians without limbs. As you know, AK-47's bayonet isn't wide and heavy enough to cut off hand or leg.

In the region where I lived in the 1980's, 20,000 - 30,000 people died (More than 1million since then). They were unarmed villagers and were executed and buried in mass graves. All at the hands of troops trained by North Korea and supplied with weapons made in the Soviet Union.

I ask you again: did weapon suppliers force anyone to kill anybody?

If I give you a couple of whiskey bottles - will you drink them quickly one by one and then blame me that you got drunken and have a terrible headache?

Search Gukurahundi, I hope it makes you proud to be Russian. Also have a look at Flight RH 825 or Flight RH 827 - 2 passenger airliners shot down with Russian made 9K32 “Strela-2†(SA-7) missiles. 50% of the survivors of the RH 825 were killed after they escaped the crash by terrorists with AK-47s. You can't do that with spears and machetes you know.

So what? And have a look at Hiroshima and Nagasaki - how many civilians were killed there in one moment? Look at Dresden bombings - how many died there? Google Deyr-Yassin, Sabra and Shatila camps - what can you say about it?

Calling for freedom for Victor Bout is the most ridiculous statement I have ever seen on these forums. I guess as long as someones seen to be acting against the USA their crimes don't matter to certain people here.

And calling for imprisonment of 'bad guy' but not mentioning your 'good guys' who do the same is ridiculous too.

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PELHAM I feel sorry for your past experiences but this is just non-sense. AK-47s are made all over the world.

And FFS You can't blame Russians on this forum for murder done by some piece of shit with AK-47! Will you blame German members for holocaust? By such thinking you should also blame yourself because you're from Africa therefore you're somehow linked to those crimes. :j: Every part of the world has its share of evil history...

They should recognise their countries responsibility for recent crimes against humanity and not so easily dismiss them. Much finger pointing goes on in these forums and it's generally always a certain way. AK-47's are made all over the world and yes AK-47's of every type turned up in africa from the good peoples of China, Russia, North Korea and Eastern Europe. But before 1990 that only happened with the approval of the Kremlin. After 1991 it just turned into a free for all with corrupt officials all over the former Soviet Republics handing hundreds of tonnes of weapons to people like Bout for cash. That is the responsibility of the nations that allowed this to happen. Have they done anything since to make ammends? No, just excuses.

Corrrection to previous statement, "freedom for Viktor Bout" is no longer the most ridiculous statement I have ever seen on these forums, this is:

you should also blame yourself because you're from Africa therefore you're somehow linked to those crimes.

What a preposterous thing to say? So because I was there and a victim of this, I am somehow responsible? Those AK-47's were pointed at me many times, ever had one complete with bayonet poked through a car window at you?

---------- Post added at 12:34 PM ---------- Previous post was at 12:30 PM ----------

I saw a photo from Kongo, there was about hundred of hands cut off and lying in a hill. Other photos contained civilians without limbs. As you know, AK-47's bayonet isn't wide and heavy enough to cut off hand or leg.

How it works mate, is the AK-47 is pointed at people to stop them resisting or running away, as bullets are expensive, a machete is then used. If you would like any further info on how your countries weapons are used to commit atrocities don't hesistate to ask. The choice is simple, those who run get shot, those who don't run get chopped. Which would you prefer?

You can mention all the atrocities commited by others you like, Viktor Bout and much of the warfare in Africa is Russia's dirty laundry and the subject of this thread. I'm here to make you see and smell that dirty laundry, service with a smile. ;)

Edited by PELHAM

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AK-47's are made all over the world and yes AK-47's of every type turned up in africa from the good peoples of China, Russia, North Korea and Eastern Europe. But before 1990 that only happened with the approval of the Kremlin. After 1991 it just turned into a free for all with corrupt officials all over the former Soviet Republics handing hundreds of tonnes of weapons to people like Bout for cash.

Plain bullsh*t and the sad part about AK-47s pointing at you can't help it (though I understand it was very unpleasant experience). AK-47 clones were made in China in 50's without Kremlin approval and not a single f*ck was given. Same goes with other countries.

They should recognise their countries responsibility for recent crimes against humanity and not so easily dismiss them.

In case of crimes in Africe I think they have valid arguments to dismiss them.

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Chinese copies were supplied without any Kremlin will, if you know, Russian-Chinese relations weren't warm from late 60's till early 90's. And China produced 'Strela-2' too. Can you distinguish Russian and Chinese AKs, especially while being stressed?

How it works mate, is the AK-47 is pointed at people to stop them resisting or running away, as bullets are expensive, a machete is then used. If you would like any further info on how your countries weapons are used to commit atrocities don't hesistate to ask. The choice is simple, those who run get shot, those who don't run get chopped. Which would you prefer?

I'd prefer fast death over heavy wounds for sure.

Well, and maybe you will answer my question? Who forced local people to kill each other? And what was first - the will to obtain some weapons which are more effective than knives and arrows or the will to sell them and see in action?

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Pelham as regards the statements made on these forums, do you choose to ignore the context in which they are framed?

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Calling for freedom for Victor Bout is the most ridiculous statement I have ever seen on these forums. I guess as long as someones seen to be acting against the USA their crimes don't matter to certain people here.

Nah, I think it's more like "He stole something? Everybody steals! Get those guys!" kind of argument. Of course, some people are butthurt just because USA have him, but that's quite expected.

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Chinese copies were supplied without any Kremlin will, if you know, Russian-Chinese relations weren't warm from late 60's till early 90's. And China produced 'Strela-2' too. Can you distinguish Russian and Chinese AKs, especially while being stressed?

China and North Korea bear a greater responsibility than Russia in this but this thread is about Viktor who was involved in arms smuggling and violating UN sanctions across africa. The Russian Governments support for this criminal is well known, why was he allowed to move freely in Russia despite this illegal activity?

Are you now trying to deny that any Russian made AK's were supplied to africa? Really? RE the SAM-7's that shot down the civilian aircraft, they dropped the tubes and they were recovered and identified. If you look on the Russian Strela wiki page the incident is listed there because of this fact. If you would like to look on the Zimbabwean Army page you will notice what weapons they use and who supplied them and when. There were huge shipments of weapons to Zimbabwe from the USSR in the 1980's during the Gukurahundi attrocities, uncluding tanks, APC, Infantry weapons etc.

Now you're going to tell me it's all lies made up by the Western Media, Wikipedia has innacuracies so none of the information is valid or one of the other standard responses?

Edited by PELHAM

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China and North Korea bear a greater responsibility than Russia in this but this thread is about Viktor who was involved in arms smuggling and violating UN sanctions across africa. Are you now trying to deny that any Russian made AK's were supplied to africa? Really? RE the SAM-7's they dropped the tubes and they were recovered and identified. If you look on the Russian Strela wiki page the incident is listed there because of this fact.

I don't deny that Russian weapons were supplied to African nations. But I don't understand some things, please explain me:

1) what's the difference between killings from Russian/Chinese/German/Belgian/US/Czech weapons? You lived in particular part of Africa so you hadn't a chance to see which weapons were used in many other conflicts there.

2) who forced African nations to buy so many weapons all over the world and kill each other in hundreds of wars between states, military coups and civil wars? Do the guys like Bout violate UN sanctions just for lulz or some people from countries that are listed in sanctions want to buy some arms and ask smugglers for them? Why don't you understand that it's their choice - to buy or not to buy arms, legally or not, to kill each other or to live peacefully? "If there is a request - then there will be an offer" - one of the main rules of human life. You want to get high - here's a drugs and alcohol. You want a gun - here it is, legal and not. If people don't want to live peacefully with each other - they'll find infinite numbers of the ways to kill their opponents. And Russian arms are only one item it this loooong list of way to kill. If some group says "Hey look at this cheap and easy available arms from USSR! Let's get'em and beat the cr@p out of that neighboring s@ers!" - it's their decision and their response for all they did with this arms. Arms don't make their users zombies that think only of murders and blood.

Edited by Spooky Lynx

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Why don't you understand that it's their choice - to buy or not to buy arms, legally or not, to kill each other or to live peacefully?

Yeah, I wonder what would PELHAM say if 100 people in USA legally got machine guns and went on killing spree with thousands of victims. Would he blame US govt for it? Nope. I'm sure he would came up with some simple explanation putting guilt on Russia. Screw this thread...

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If there were two teenage boys in your street wanting to fight each other, would you sell them knives and let one kill the other, then say, nothing to do with me, it was their choice. Without your hypothetical invovlement they would have used fists and it's unlikely death would have been a result. It's basic ethics and morals. Your hypothetical behaviour in this situations shows no ethics, you would have profited from a death.

That is why many countries try (fail at it mostly lol) to have some sort of ethical policy when it comes to this. My specific gripe with China, North Korea and Russia is that there is virtually no ethical restriction on who gets to buy weapons. You will sell anything to anyone and all that matters is the cash.

Yeah, I wonder what would PELHAM say if 100 people in USA legally got machine guns and went on killing spree with thousands of victims. Would he blame US govt for it? Nope. I'm sure he would came up with some simple explanation putting guilt on Russia. Screw this thread...

Yes I would blame the US in general not just the US Govt. The 2nd amendment did not forsee the machine guns and cannons which people have in their homes. It was made during the time of flintlocks. Legally I don't think we could curb the average US citizens right to bear arms, but do they really need an AK-47, M-16 or 50Cal M2?

Edited by PELHAM

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If there were two teenage boys in your street wanting to fight each other, would you sell them knives and let one kill the other, then say, nothing to do with me, it was their choice. Without your hypothetical invovlement they would have used fists and it's unlikely death would have been a result. It's basic ethics and morals. Your hypothetical behaviour in this situations shows no ethics, you would have profited from a death.

Heh, I see you don't know anything about teenage fights. There is a great chance to get severe wounds just in plain fight without knives or any other items. Or even die.

Another thing that you compare African states and nations with immature teenagers. But they are considered to be mature people, they are UN members and handle independent states. The same states as in Americas, Asia and Europe. If they are like stupid teens - then they don't deserve to live in their own states, right? All they deserve is to live in colonies ruled by more mature nations, right, mr. Pelham?

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Calling for freedom for Victor Bout is the most ridiculous statement I have ever seen on these forums. I guess as long as someones seen to be acting against the USA their crimes don't matter to certain people here.

I have to agree with Pelham on this one. This guy sold weapons, knowing that they will be used to kill. ANd not only to kill soldiers but also civilians. That makes him part of the killing. He supplied the tools knowing how they will be used. A person like that deserves to be in Prison.

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The 2nd amendment did not forsee the machine guns and cannons which people have in their homes. It was made during the time of flintlocks. Legally I don't think we could curb the average US citizens right to bear arms, but do they really need a 50Cal M2?

Yeah, but of course I meant M-16s which are legal. No point discussing with you.

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Do you guys really think that people everywhere do have a choice to choose what they can do? Sorry, but some here only show a "Russia strong!!" attitude. Would you be butthurt if a weapon dealer from another country would be caught and sentenced to lifetime prison or death? Does the country matter or does the action/deal matters? Or would you just like to put a blind eye on crime/(tribal) genocide just because its more comfortable to excuse these atrocities with "political" or "people are worth/not worth" reasons?

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Yeah, but of course I meant M-16s which are legal. No point discussing with you.

I meant M-16s too, had not finished editing. Any other spurious arguments now you have essentially lost this one?

---------- Post added at 02:30 PM ---------- Previous post was at 02:27 PM ----------

Heh, I see you don't know anything about teenage fights. There is a great chance to get severe wounds just in plain fight without knives or any other items. Or even die.

Another thing that you compare African states and nations with immature teenagers. But they are considered to be mature people, they are UN members and handle independent states. The same states as in Americas, Asia and Europe. If they are like stupid teens - then they don't deserve to live in their own states, right? All they deserve is to live in colonies ruled by more mature nations, right, mr. Pelham?

If Bout gets out, go and apply for a job, you just passed his ethics test. Someone like you would be a valuable employee.

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Heh, I see you don't know anything about teenage fights. There is a great chance to get severe wounds just in plain fight without knives or any other items. Or even die.

I know a little bit about teenage streetfighting and no it is not equivocable to arming them both in terms of degree of injury.

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If there were two teenage boys in your street wanting to fight each other, would you sell them knives and let one kill the other, then say, nothing to do with me, it was their choice.

Technically I'd say this is correct. I don't believe you should be held responsible for someone else's crime simply for providing a tool for him to carry it out; it is still the criminal's decision and his alone to actually commit the crime.

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