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sudayev

Libya today

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At least some of then, the "tribes" (probably not the correct term) not affiliated to Gaddhafi main group, and who probably didn't have a taste of the heaven goodness described above. Lybia isn't a single block, tied together country.

Funny how suddenly Lybia was heaven on earth. It's all white or black, mmmh? People seriously couldn't be put out of this greatness and all was wonderfull, and every other tale is a lie?

Look, the whole Lybia freedom war and international involvement was a sad farce, took on by power-hungry western politicians in a time they desperately needed some recognition (at least, for our case, France)

And Ghaddafi had great plans, and did some real good to his country.

Thing is, contrary to what is shown above, he was no saint, and some, if not many, were left out of his plans. Minority? Very probably.

And I'm making a great effort here to set aside his state-terrorism past killing our citizens. (seriously, this whole "he was great" is a joke. A terrorist is never great, you should know that in Russia)

Having a need to build a whole infrastructure to spy on his citizens through Internet and phone (to a level rarely achieved) is not really a sign of a peacefull country, quite the countrary. More a sign of oppressive regime.

And where the farce comes to ridicule : the whole spying infrastructure has been design and sold to Lybia .... by France. How sad was that?

Look up for "Amesys" for more info on this.

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And under communism none of that happened? Or was it because the press was state controlled you didn't know about it?

no, there was much lower criminal level,

for me freedom factor is "percentage of - i do what i want"

so comparing to situation when i have gangs on street and i have militia on street : when there is militia i can walk easily with girl, when there are gang members i afraid to walk, so i am not free, so bigger freedom to walk evening is when there is "militia's eye anywhere" comparing to "absolute lack of control because of freedom or bribery" ,

press before 89 lied as much as after, the difference is that now they lie "for banks", not for "party",

for me there is no difference between lies for X-ones and lies for Y-ones, lie is lie ,

the same bullshit about freedom of travel or etc. , try to hunt for debtor when there is freedom, i am hunting debtor and i know how freedom of travel and lack of control is bad,

the other things is social safety (jobs) freedom, that i feel free to set family, cause i will get flat, child-support etc. when there is no it, i am not free to have family, so what kind of freedom you talk about in situation when basic human needs are not fulfilled and you must work hard to pay 30 years rates for bank (credit for flat)

tell me what is the difference between court decision made for party and made because of bribe from businessmen ? is there a difference for someone whose oppressor get away with crime ?

is it freedom ? for me not at all,

Poland's been experiencing steady GDP growth since the 90s. It had not been caught up in the 2008 economic crisis. Productivity is up. Income is up. All of this Poland owes to its free market economic system.

Platforma Obywatelska party's bullshit

in 90s we lost jobs, homes, etc. many thousands people committed suicides because of economic reasons,

income is not up, they changed way of providing stats (they count "average salary" in different way than before, Profesor Belka, boss of bank told it and it was written in money.pl service, 8% of growth is "statistical trick"), people i know around (and myself) lost extra-money "premie", etc. i have 3000-4000 PLN less on my PIT, than in 2008 i had, i don't have any growth, i have 5% less than i had , some of my friends have 10 or more percent less, but rate for bank is bigger, pay for electricity and gas is bigger, also payment for flat will be bigger, since city hall changed something in Warsaw, also tickets for travel are more expensive etc.

so not only my year-salary is smaller for 5-6% (PIT), but also taxes and prices are bigger, don't make here PO-bullshit propaganda,

10% of my friends lost job this and last year, level of unemployment (add milion of emigrants which left PL after 2004) is over 13% officially counted ,

prices of medicament bought by my mother or by my neighbor also raised since 1-st of Jan,

many of my friends lost some percent of salary , we have bigger... credits in banks,

you know what i owe to free market ? that i cannot afford to have my own flat, that i was looking for job very long to take low-payed job (although i had MSc and good marks) , i cannot have family cause i cannot buy flat, few people that i knew (who worked in liquidated manufactures) committed suicides cause they were too old for employers , etc. along with freedom i can see lots of lads in Adidas/Nike/Reebok clothes which terrorize neighborhood and some other guys that should be imprisoned long ago walk laughing with golden necklace,

Edited by vilas

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I believe that islam is going to take a dominant part in Libya and within the next years the society is going back to a patriachic religious model. With much more social repression than technological repression like "What? You don't do ramadan? Your wife can leave the house and drive a car? I won't hire you..." stuff. What is the lesser evil now? A partially enlightened despot (who occasionally harbored terrorists) or bigotted religious fanatics fighting "westernization".

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I believe that islam is going to take a dominant part in Libya and within the next years the society is going back to a patriachic religious model. With much more social repression than technological repression like "What? You don't do ramadan? Your wife can leave the house and drive a car? I won't hire you..." stuff. What is the lesser evil now? A partially enlightened despot (who occasionally harbored terrorists) or bigotted religious fanatics fighting "westernization".

exactly, from our point of view enlightened despot (Kadaffi, Hussein) was much better for our world (safety),

but from the other side of coin - freedom and democracy means following will of majority (even if majority will behead minority) , cause freedom and democracy means "nation decide what nation wants, will of majority", right ?

but main issue is - was it will of nation, or was it will of group of greed people who wanted to take power and money and be in charge,

many revolutions comes not from solving problems of people, but because "he is king, now i want golden throne and i want to be king", just like gang-fights, cause one gang wants to kill another gang, to collect tribute from local shop-keepers, for shop-keepers there is no difference who abuse them, guys in red baseball cap listening to one raper or guys in blue cap listening to other raper,

shopkeeper is still abused, but guys in blue cap say "we smashed bad guys" and they demand twice bigger tribute now,

i look at Libia this way as with this example, for me it was not will of nation, but some group wanted to be rule it and they were supported by west (oil, banks etc) the same like some of our situations after 1989

Edited by vilas

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I don't remember any armed, not peacefull, revolutions ending into a period of peace, harmony, friendship between all the people.

Usually the transition period of this kind of revolution has always been hell on Earth for people living on location, as shown through history.

Agree.

And I didn't realise the social programs the country had.

Very impressive.

But unfortunately the *other* behind-the-scenes state endorsed crime badly overshadows a potential eden.

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I think someone else faaar more powerful than few angry Libyan clanleaders wanted to destabilize the country in order to seize the power (non directly) in long term run. Those Libyan youngsters dressed like their Californian gangbanging idols are only miserable tools. Right now there is a clash of many concepts, of what to do now? We have pro Libyan rebels, bearded islamist groups and pro western rebels backed the the worlds most powerful secret agency.

PS. Did you know that before Kaddafi Libya was top exporter of scrap metal haha

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Gnat;2116311']Agree.

And I didn't realise the social programs the country had.

Very impressive.

But unfortunately the *other* behind-the-scenes state endorsed crime badly overshadows a potential eden.

every coin has 2 sides' date='

there is no social safety without big taxes

there are no low taxes with social care

there is no big freedom with safe streets

there are safe streets with bigger police control

US has also not nice behind scene (Columbine, "Sicko", homeless on streets, rednecks ready to shoot anyone who would by mistake get on their corn field, gangs violence like Oakland, probably lack of employers safety of job etc)

USSR had it's behind-scene, my country have it's behind-scene etc.

every coin has 2 sides , the only important is which side is for us more important, for me most important is my social safety, i want to have flat, i want to have secured job, i want to go on holidays, i want to go evening with my camera without afraid of robbers, i want to listen to music, sleep long and i want to eat fresh food without diarrhea (which is strong health-inspection which abuse private company producing food, big control on farmers, big control on shops )

Why is there just one name referenced across most of the articles? Does he appear on RT much?

article about social bonuses was confirmed by people who worked in Libia (from PL some engineers worked there for months)

probably it is to ugly knowledge, so liberal media vanish such infos and do not let them to main stream , cause it is politically incorrect (for banksters)

do homeless in USA knew that before 1989 we had free social care, free flats (most of it) , free education to doctor level or more, free hospitals, free holidays from workers-found ???

do people in US knew about low level of crimes here while on their streets in 70s and 80s they had shootings every evening ? i highly doubt that US reality was back then different than this what is saw on Charles Bronson movies, those movies were not sci-fi, right ?

we didn't had armed criminals, i was going on holidays from my mother's work, we get small flat for free etc. etc. i finished university of technology not paying single PLN for it (of course decade ago, but it is thanx to previous system) while my grandmother had to eat "rest after ham" and suffered from lack of money for dentists and lack of better education (because of lack of money) in system before WW2 (when Poland was capitalistic till 1939)

my grandmother, my grandfather do not had nice life before WW2 , they knew poverty and lack of food

Edited by vilas

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I think someone else faaar more powerful than few angry Libyan clanleaders wanted to destabilize the country in order to seize the power (non directly) in long term run. Those Libyan youngsters dressed like their Californian gangbanging idols are only miserable tools. Right now there is a clash of many concepts, of what to do now? We have pro Libyan rebels, bearded islamist groups and pro western rebels backed the the worlds most powerful secret agency.

PS. Did you know that before Kaddafi Libya was top exporter of scrap metal haha

Look at the companies who gathered most tasty contracts after this revolution and you will see who wanted to seize the power.

BTW, I see some tendency at the western forums. At first everybody praised the rebels and every their victory, naming them fighters for freedom, etc. Now I see you are not so happy about that rebels, realizing that they're bunch of jihadists and armed gangs, having nothing common with freedom and democracy. It seems like I've been right about them some time ago:raisebrow:

Edited by Spooky Lynx

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I'd rather be free than get money for getting married. :/

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Look at the companies who gathered most tasty contracts after this revolution and you will see who wanted to seize the power.

BTW, I see some tendency at the western forums. At first everybody praised the rebels and every their victory, naming them fighters for freedom, etc. Now I see you are not so happy about that rebels, realizing that they're bunch of jihadists and armed gangs, having nothing common with freedom and democracy. It seems like I've been right about them some time ago:raisebrow:

Exactly!

Who benefited from this revolution?

Sarkozy

Western Oil companys

Banks

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Western Oil companys, Banks - to whom Kaddafi showed his middle finger.

They will start to dismount other countries very soon. Iran is next while Venezuela lies somewhere on the horizon.

Edited by Sudayev

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unfortunately i don't see any gains for west powers by Libya revolution either ...

more likely that the single or multiple gov formed there will be pro-islamic orienting on Saudi Arabia, Iran (depends on which side of Islam branch each region sits)

most likely deals about Libya natural resources go into hands of non European non USA companies (Chine, Russia, Brazil, India often takes over contracts where west messup)

yes, Kaddaffi did terrible things and his support of terrorism was mistake

but he was definitely capable to keep his country safe and prospering for majority of population

his investments to the country (even to fund Africa summit and other organizations)

were definitely very different from casual africa and middle east dictators (compare with Iraq's SH)

imo if he gave up the control over to one of his liberal sons

then Libya would easily turn into next Dubai or Qatar (or Kuwait prior being invaded) ...

now ... that dream is definitely shattered ...

reminds me on history of Lebanon and Syria, they were considered pearls of middle east and must visit destinations

Edited by Dwarden

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unfortunately i don't see any gains for west powers by Libya revolution either ...

I can name some:

1) people become interested about the war but not internal problems

2) Russian and Chinese companies are out of the Libya, all the contracts are suspended - because they didn't support rebellion

yes, Kaddaffi did terrible things and his support of terrorism was mistake

but he was definitely capable to keep his country safe and prospering for majority of population

his investments to the country (even to fund Africa summit and other organizations)

were definitely very different from casual africa and middle east dictators (compare with Iraq's SH)

Not only Quaddafi supported so called terrorism. If you look at the countries who did it after WW2 till now, you'll see all the UN Security council in the list and many others.

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spooky the official support of terrorism unfortunately came from east block

you probably not aware of it, but like 75% of all terrorism groups in middle east and africa was trained and sponsored from Warsaw pact

yes even my country not just helped with 'comrade' style donation of semtex and weapons

but the state had full scale education and training of terrorist members, leaders, officers and such

all overseen by KGB . our STB and other military branches

and even elsewhere in world, the most brutal and most casualties guerrilla and terrorism groups are leftovers from East block support

i'm not saying west block is w/o blood on hand, it's just way less

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2) Russian and Chinese companies are out of the Libya, all the contracts are suspended - because they didn't support rebellion

Yeah they keep making the same mistake - supporting corrupt dictators. Assad will be out of Syria shortly. You expect Syrian's to forgive what has happened and embrace those who blocked UN resolutions, blocked humanitarian efforts, blocked Arab league progress and looked the other way while people died? Can someone prepare a future thread describing how wonderful life was in Syria under Assad lolz.

If Russia and China did the right thing they would be welcomed back and would no doubt have the majority of the contracts because they work cheap and would be more familiar with all the equipment. Too late now tho, they have supported Assad and ruined any future involvement in building a future for Syria. So things will only get worse as they have no option now but to prop up Assad while more people die. If only they had learned that lesson in Libya?

Edited by PELHAM

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how about people who fought for freedom of nation oppressed by right wing dictators ? are they terrorists or freedom fighters ? how about Latin America and CIA activity ? how about Lumumba-like examples ?

when there were 2 blocks - there were forces supporting freedom fighting movements, one block is ugly cause noone will support nations which are ruled by minority or nations opressed by government bribed by big corporations

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So much hypocrisy in this thread.

@PELHAM: If morality is the only thing that matters than I support Assad and I hope that Syrian army will kill as much Sunni terrorists (Free Syrian Army if you wish) as possible. I'm 100% serious. This whole Arab spring joke looks like revolution only on the TV screens. Have you seen the latest joke? Homing pigeon mortar grenade launched by Assad navigating through hall full of Allah Akbar screaming peaceful protesters with Ak-47s and RPG-7s killing 2 peaceful terrorists in the furthest corner and 15 invisible ones?

@Dwarden: You're probably right (I don't have the knowledge). But I don't believe that Sunni terrorists are paid by east.

There are also some videos showing how nicely are people with black skin treated in Libya nowadays.

Edited by batto

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@one_man_clan

Nice video of Gaddafi there - did you know many of those 'supporters' were paid or coerced? E.g. have a look at this from Al-Jazeera a year ago:

17th Feb 2011 - In an apparent effort to control the public narrative in the wake of rare protests that have spread throughout Libya, the country's government is threatening to withdraw scholarship funding from citizens studying in the United States unless they attend pro-government rallies in Washington this weekend, Al Jazeera has learned.

http://www.aljazeera.com/news/africa/2011/02/2011217184949502493.html

So the gracious and great Gaddafi pays your University fees as long as you engage in protests on his behalf? As for morality I think the pictures and deaths of hundreds of people in Homs speaks for itself. Was Marie Colvin/Remi Ochlik a terrorist? Why is the Red Cross still being kept out of Homs and why is there a restriction on reporting from Syria?

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@PELHAM: If morality is the only thing that matters than I support Assad and I hope that Syrian army will kill as much Sunni terrorists (Free Syrian Army if you wish) as possible.

Lol. Sunni are 84% of the Syrian Muslims, who are 90% of the Syrian population. So when they are revolting themselves, they are called terrorists ?

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Yea, terrorism or freedom fighter depends a lot on the perspective. Through there are some methods a freedom fighter should not use. Like explicitly targetting civilians, like the french resistance did.

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You are labelling an entire country and government as Islamic Fundamentalists because 112 Libyan Jihadists turned up in Iraq? 112 out of 5.6 million?

No, I'm just labelling Benghazi fundamentalists who now rule the country. And you know what? Majority of Libyan people didn't care about democracy, because they weren't harmed by Ghaddafi regime. They were happy with him, because he gave them... money, education, even WCs! Before Ghaddafi they had Idris who was even worse, actively killing his servants. 40 years ago Libya was in Middle-Ages! Of course, Ghaddafi was killing his political opponents, but they were fundamentalists or former Idris friends. If killing them was bad, why killing Taliban opposition to Karzai is OK?

@Sudayev, not safe? They are holding international football matches in Benghazi?

http://in.reuters.com/article/2012/02/20/soccer-africa-libya-idINDEE81J0FG20120220

Of course they're holding! Benghazi is now one of very few safe places in Libya, they couldn't play this match in Tripoli with all that machine guns shooting behind the entrance.

BTW: check link for Telegraph article, I can only see "Sorry. We cannot find the page you are looking for." :(

Having a need to build a whole infrastructure to spy on his citizens through Internet and phone (to a level rarely achieved) is not really a sign of a peacefull country, quite the countrary. More a sign of oppressive regime.

Whisper, this sentence is just ridiculous. If you really think like that, you should be the first to throw away PC, TV set and phone and live in a log cabin in mountains, eating reindeer you had hunted.

Gnat;2116311']I didn't realise the social programs the country had.

Very impressive.

But unfortunately the *other* behind-the-scenes state endorsed crime badly overshadows a potential eden.

So know think about Saudi Arabia' date=' ruled by religious minority (Shias, while 90% of citizens are Sunni), with Sharia law, and position of women, which is lower even when comparing with Iran (Iran is pretty liberal on this, they allow women to vote or have their own businesses, Ghaddafi Libya was even better, "European" I could say). Saudi Arabia is criticized by many human rights organizations. So why there's no international pressure on Saudi regime? Why they (or better word: "we" - western countries) are obsessed with Libya or Syria, and don't care about Saudi Arabia or Yemen? Ghaddafi was killed with help of our bombs. But why Mubarak could escape to his house in Sharm el-Sheikh? He was even offered refuge in Israel by Benjamin Eliezer! Only because he was our dictator? And Ghaddafi was not?

unfortunately i don't see any gains for west powers by Libya revolution either ...

most likely deals about Libya natural resources go into hands of non European non USA companies (Chine, Russia, Brazil, India often takes over contracts where west messup)

Overall, I agree with you, but on this you're wrong. China bought some of the Libyan oil fields before revolution, but after Ghaddafi death everything was sold to French and German companies (even fields which were state-owned before - source of Libyan wealth). (Source: Raport WTO 12/2011 - Polish military-oriented magazine, unfortunately article is not on the net, but I bet that there is more on that on western websites/newspapers)

and even elsewhere in world, the most brutal and most casualties guerrilla and terrorism groups are leftovers from East block support

Like Al Queda, created by Saudi people with great help from CIA, to fight with Ruskies in Afghanistan?

Don't get me wrong, of course this example is an exception, communist guerrilla (like Red Khmer) are the worst, but I think that you're still thinking in "we the Good, they the Bad" style. While it's not. See my Mubarak example - another dictator, but he was "our", so nobody helped revolution in Egypt. And I can accept such way of thinking (Ghaddafi - their, Mubarak - our), because it's honest, but this discussion have turned into "good vs bad" - that's why I'm trying to show that Ghaddafi is not all that bad, while our friends are not all that good.

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that video reminds me on another country ... Iran had plan to redistribute wealth from oil to own citizens too ... which became extremely unpopular to British and USA seen chance

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1953_Iranian_coup_d%27%C3%A9tat

result we all know leads some decades later to theocracy in Iran and after some more decades we got ... oh well ...

sure there is difference between nationalization of what someone else built and redistribution of portion from oil income

but there are similar points there

atm, the only states which managed the transition are small tiny states (Kuwait, Dubai, Quatar)

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