Kinda newbie-like question re visibility

[ladlon]

Man, I often seem to cause trouble when posting....

Ya, from my point of view, the grass is 'good'... realistic, bothersome (in a good way). As I mentioned, it WOULD be great to be able to lift your head up, even just to peek up. I have a TrackIR as well, and it would be great if you could actually move your head (lift) using that too.

The whole 'does grass block the AI's view' debate baffles me.... Doesn't anyone know 'for sure'? Has the developer not stated something one way or another, or hasn't anyone viewed the code itself?

I'm 'curious' about it, but certainly don't want to cause eyes to roll to the ceiling by mentioning it (as it appears the subject has been discussed to death).

My original post was more in the vain of 'Wow, this is realistically hard! As would be expected from a non-military player, I'm not completely kicking AI butt here. I'm doing relatively okay, but am aware that I'm not doing things 'by the book' and efficiently/properly. For example, having a hell of a time spotting enemies, especially when prone!'.... So, it was more of a 'I'm curious how you guys do it', than a 'This game is stupid' kind of deal.

So far, my sessions are more like 'I'm one team, my squadmates are another'.... as I'm really not utilizing formations, team tactics, etc. As well, since I'm spending a lot of time wrestling with the controls (in one form or another), my participation is not 'equal' to that of my squad.... Not necessarily that I'm doing nothing... but I'm doing DIFFERENT stuff than them. They obviously are doing correct stuff (unless I interfere), and I'm.... well.... doing my own world thing.

Most of the blame simply goes to my not knowing the proper tactics, although part of it DOES rest on the wonky controls (commands, not movement and stuff)... as well as the limitations of the sim (situations it didn't consider, bugs, etc).

I keep going in, wanting to experience the 'by the book' team-based warfare... but sadly, it usually ends up as 'my two teams'... with them saving my butt most of the time (as far as clearing hostiles), while I'm looking around, trying to spot the enemy that the squadmates are already battling with for a while!... or cursing while I try and exit the menu that has gone balistic on me.

I seem to only dictate where we are walking to, and healing guys. Granted, I've had several kills.... and when doing stuff like a 'Destroy important target' Secom mission, I'm the only one to actually try destroying the thing (as there doesn't appear to be a way to get the other guys to attack them... only to move to them!). Actually, that brings up another question... of how am I supposed to destroy these targets??? I tried grenades, which didn't really work. Usually, I just call in an Apache (which I've set up in my random missions with the radio feature)... but again, it's THEM doing stuff, and not me. I need them to airdrop a rocket launcher or something!

I'm still playing vanilla Arma2. Figured I should figure out things first before going hardcore with ACE2, etc.

[CarlGustaffa]

Turning the grass off is cheating, in my book. War isn't fought on golf courses, and if it gives the AI an advantage, then they certainly deserve it, given all of yours.

Well said, and I couldn't agree more. Yes I agree that grass can create an unfair advantage, but we as humans should be able to outthink the AI to overcome that obstacle. Seek higher ground, reposition, think like a human - something the AI will never be able to. Reduce their skill and/or accuracy to compensate if it's still too much of a problem.

When things get close, AI hide extremely well nearby, by laying down in the grass. Add shadows and they're practically invisible. Remove grass, and add players who don't use shadows to strengthen their advantage - well... Immersion out the window for me.

But turning it off? Never. Grass is a highly realistic obstacle and gives us something we need - fighting an invisible enemy (even if the cause is slightly off). Never are things as perfect as what is portrayed ingame; perfect scopes, perfect vision, little dust or smoke, concealment that doesn't work at all or AI not being able to exploit it etc. Not to mention how no grass pose no consideration to choice of avenue of approach. With grass on, you have to think twice - it becomes a tactical element - which is a good thing if you ask me. That being said, I don't think I have ever played a game where sun or moon position actually made a point in the planning phase (where to attack from, pluss or minus regarding grass obstacles i.e.)

When we end up in trouble due to bad choices regarding grass (and we do, like, constantly ), I like to try to solve that problem with tactics to counter its bad effects.

My only complaint about grass, is in its uniformity. On Chernarus, there should have been more patches of Utes like grass. Although low grass exists, rarely do you actually find places where you can plan to use it.

[Nielsneo]

Man, I often seem to cause trouble when posting....

My original post was more in the vain of 'Wow, this is realistically hard! As would be expected from a non-military player, I'm not completely kicking AI butt here. I'm doing relatively okay, but am aware that I'm not doing things 'by the book' and efficiently/properly. For example, having a hell of a time spotting enemies, especially when prone!'.... So, it was more of a 'I'm curious how you guys do it', than a 'This game is stupid' kind of deal.

So far, my sessions are more like 'I'm one team, my squadmates are another'.... as I'm really not utilizing formations, team tactics, etc. As well, since I'm spending a lot of time wrestling with the controls (in one form or another), my participation is not 'equal' to that of my squad.... Not necessarily that I'm doing nothing... but I'm doing DIFFERENT stuff than them. They obviously are doing correct stuff (unless I interfere), and I'm.... well.... doing my own world thing.

Most of the blame simply goes to my not knowing the proper tactics, although part of it DOES rest on the wonky controls (commands, not movement and stuff)... as well as the limitations of the sim (situations it didn't consider, bugs, etc).

I keep going in, wanting to experience the 'by the book' team-based warfare... but sadly, it usually ends up as 'my two teams'... with them saving my butt most of the time (as far as clearing hostiles), while I'm looking around, trying to spot the enemy that the squadmates are already battling with for a while!... or cursing while I try and exit the menu that has gone balistic on me.

I seem to only dictate where we are walking to, and healing guys. Granted, I've had several kills.... and when doing stuff like a 'Destroy important target' Secom mission, I'm the only one to actually try destroying the thing (as there doesn't appear to be a way to get the other guys to attack them... only to move to them!). Actually, that brings up another question... of how am I supposed to destroy these targets??? I tried grenades, which didn't really work. Usually, I just call in an Apache (which I've set up in my random missions with the radio feature)... but again, it's THEM doing stuff, and not me. I need them to airdrop a rocket launcher or something!

As a squad leader you direct your men. That is your job. You use your men to spot enemies and then assign targets for them (altough they're usually very capable of choosing tagets themselves), call in airsupport to take out armor or direct airstrikes for entrenched enemies. That's what this game is about and that's why it's so great.

I'm sorry but it sounds to me like you are used to COD type games in where you have to do everything against entire armies(apologies if this is not the case.). ArmA2 is nothing like that and should not be played like that. You don't have to do things "by the book" but you have to use some form of squad tactics be they basic to play this game. Do not only lead your men, but use them as well. The satisfaction in this game comes from using your assets to complete the missions with minimal casulties.

On a side note the AI can be frustrating sometimes(it's the downside of unscripted AI) and the user interface can be clumsy and in the way occasionally but the positives outweigh the negatives by a landslide.
I hope you keep playing and have fun with the game. The many addons enrich the game further so check them out once you're tired of vanilla ArmA2.

[Vick]

As I mentioned, it WOULD be great to be able to lift your head up, even just to peek up. I have a TrackIR as well, and it would be great if you could actually move your head (lift) using that too.

read somewhere they were looking into that, would be awesome to peek over cover and such

[maturin]

Has anyone tried aiming at the sky and then free-looking? It would be awkward, but when the AI does it their torso rises about a foot off the ground. Any higher and you would be kneeling, so maybe the grass is just too high.

[ladlon]

@Nielsneo: Actually, I don't own a single copy of COD or GRAW, etc. Arma2 is my first plunge into semi-realistic/realistic combat sim... aside from the old Rainbow6 Raven Shield and STALKER. Granted, I have been a Battlefield 2 player for quite some time (single player against bots)... but not one of those bunny hopping types of players. (...and I respect that you acknowledge that this may be the case, so I'm not bashing you here... just stating things 'for the record')

I bought Arma2 to actually get the more realistic, command a squad, etc type of experience. I love the stealth, the waiting, the tension, the 'one shot' reality... This is exactly why I got it. I'm neither surprised nor upset that Arma2 is realistic and different from the arcade type war games... quite the opposite.

A similar thing happened to me with combat flight sims. I've been playing 'lite' sims like Lomac, and still wanted something more detailed. I'm not one of those guys who just wants to jump to the dogfight... but instead, I really enjoy the 'power up and taxi' experience too. So, I ended up modding my copy of Falcon4 (...ya, I still have the huge manual binder and everything!) with OpenFalcon (or whatever that one excellent hardcore mod is called)... and that delivered! Powering up is half the game!

So, that was great... but the problem I had was one of those 'be careful of what you ask for' type of things! I WANTED the complex, full powerup (for example), but now that I had it, I was overwhelmed by it (...afterall, it IS hard to learn how to power up a real F-16). So, again, it wasn't a situation of me saying 'This sim sucks' or 'Why is this so complicated now?!'.... but me being glad of the complexity/realism, but simply acknowledging that I'm currently not well versed and relatively unskilled at the task at hand.

In the case of Arma2... it's partially because I'm not familiar (fully) with procedure (... I still completely ignore formation and ordering a stance and 'rule of engagement' to my mates... partially because it's proper use is still a bit new to me, and because I'm often too busy dealing with other things).... and partially because the interface fights me (and part of THAT is STILL unfamiliarity with some of the menu sections that I don't use as often, along with the already stated 'awkwardness' of many aspects of the menu system). Quite honestly, I think I would do a lot better playing with a real human, using voice commands, as opposed to menu commands for bots... a lot of the current difficulty is the interface as well as just the understanding of how to get things to do what I want (translating my wants into menu commands)...whereas with a human, I could communicate it much easier and intuitively.... not just because it's easier to say it, but because there's more flexibility in how to 'say' it, wider vocabulary, etc. (Example: I hate how when I select the command menu (Backspace key) the mates I selected get unselected... Half the time, I select a guy, activate the command menu, only to remember that it unselects everyone for some reason, so the command I want is now grey, then select the guy again, THEN the command. Just that sort of clumsy situation with the dynamic nature of the menu items that helps create a sense of not being fully in control or 'not getting it'...).

So, ya, I'm in no way wanting to quit Arma2... Quite the opposite. I'm in the process of learning each detail, one at a time, to increase the quality of the experience. I'm definitely not 'running and gunning' or taking on the enemy by myself (...quite the opposite there, too!... My mates usually take care of the enemy before I even spot them!... Although, last night, I made a few more kills... but unfortunately spent the majority of the session giving first aid to my mates, who kept getting injured, one right after the other! I couldn't get any shots in!

BTW, ya, I'd LOVE to do things like call in support, etc... (doing recon and calling in a strike is one of my favorite elements!) but I'm playing out of the Editor.. with a single 4 man team, the Secop, First Aid and Ambient Combat modules.... and an Apache and Huey set up to be called in to join us via the radio. I don't have access to any of the support (ammo, medical, etc)... So, that's a shame. I'm unclear on how to set up the artillery mod (...it's explained, just not as easy to understand as the other modules). The Apache I set up can be used to do a sort of air strike (becomes a member of my team temporarily, and I (usually?!) can order it to attack SOME things). The Huey is more for troop targets,and giving us a lift to farther locations (...or getting us out when things are rough). So, I'm currently also only experiencing a small part of the Arma2 world.

[SWAT_BigBear]

I've seen push up animation in many video's. I wonder if that lift would be enough for peeking over the top of grass?
I also enjoy grass/weeds at full view.

[SeaVee]

Most of the blame simply goes to my not knowing the proper tactics, although part of it DOES rest on the wonky controls (commands, not movement and stuff)....

Take a look at the VAC (Voice Activated Commands) thread. I just got it set up and it makes controlling the squad ALOT easier.

http://forums.bistudio.com/showthread.php?t=96773

[Nielsneo]

@ladlon: again my apologies for putting you in the COD box. I got from your post that one of your frustrations was the fact that you coud'nt kill or destroy everything yourself but i guess i misunderstood.

I'm glad you like the game and are eager to learn it. Having played OFP for 8 years myself the commands are embedded in my brain so i tend to forget that 9 years ago i had trouble learning the menu system.

If you liked battlefield and are interested in PVP Project Reality is coming to ArmA2. Me i'm more of a single and coop player.

As for the menu it's better to learn the number commands than use backspace. Once you select a soldier the quickmenu has a couple of basic commands that change depending on what you point at so a move command turns in to a attack command when you put your crosshairs on an enemy.
Hope that helps. Good luck.

[ladlon]

No sweat, Nielsneo... I didn't take it badly, as you acknowledged that you weren't sure if what you were saying was the case or not. It's all good...

Frustrated?... Ya, I suppose... But not in the 'I wish I could become Rambo, and manage to destroy all the enemies' type of way... It's not so much about making many kills... Just feeling a sense of control and feeling like I'm doing things correctly.

It's kind of like activating manual shifting in a racing sim... That little reality adds SO much to the experience (...that's a literal example... I used to always play with auto shifting, thinking manual shifting was just something to complicate my driving... but instead, I found it really added... plus made it not only challenging and more interesting, but actually gave me more control!). In the case or Arma2, though... I kind of feel like I can't quite get the clutch to work, so I'm kind of putting along in first gear, wishing I could join in with the pack that is whipping by me at 120mph! Just needing to get a grip on the controls, and understand the tactics, etc.

I'm entirely a single player type... I can count on my hand the number of multiplayer sessions I've had in my life (on any game). Not that I'm against it, but usually you either get slaughtered (or are a burden to) the hardcore players (whatever the game may be), or are frustrated by the moron mentality. I'm a big fan of bots (and staying offline in general)... although I fully acknowledge the fun of playing along with other people. I think the last thing I've ever tried to play multiplayer (LAN) was Ravenshield and Battlefield2.... Previous to that... wow.... It's like Age Of Empires 1.... and Duke Nukem! Ya... You could definitely say that I'm not much on the multiplayer thing!

Ya, I had started using the number keys a while back, which really helped. I just promptly forgot them (... haven't played in quite a while until recently). I only really remembered a few of them when I was using them anyway. I need to make a reference card.

I might start playing some of the scenarios again. I stopped after about 3 of them, as I was getting slaughtered in one (the first night one), and I think the same thing happened with the 4th(?) one too.

Playing those (rather than just running the Editor with the Secom module) will certainly open up some of the many features not available via the Secom module missions.

I haven't installed any of the new maps or missions either.... So, I think I'm just scratching the surface of Arma2 as it is.

A Co-op LAN session would be amazing, though... Nobody here though, even if I had a second copy of Arma2 installed on another machine. I remember watching these great videos of these two British(?) or Australian(?) guys going through missions as a 2 man team. The chatter was hilarious.

I suppose that's one thing I'm missing (since the sim can't really generate that), is the solid feeling of communication and direction/ordering... Telling your buddy, "I think I see someone over to our left, up by that barn. You sneak over to the south side of that car while I keep an eye on him...', as opposed to struggling with 'Space bar, scroll down to this command, oops, I missed, okay, backspace up to the previous menu, argh... Why can't I....? Argh!!!!'. Plus, of course, you don't have all the wonderful chatter, arguments and panic dialogue either.

Hopefully, once I really get an understanding of the use of formations, 'postures' (stealthy, aggressive, etc) and truly commanding (properly) my guys, it'll be just like switching the shifting to manual on the racing sims... so much more engaging, challenging and in-depth.

@SeaVee: Never heard of that. That sounds cool. I'll look into that. Thanks!