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RKSL Studios - WIP Discussion

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That really does blow hard about the MLOD thing. It's a shame that once again someone in the community has shat all over the thing that keeps the community together so strongly, the addon makers. I hope this all gets resolved but from what you've said rock i can't see any way around the legal position you find yourself in either. Its not as if even the removal of the tool from the forums and sites will stop the potential proliferation of it and also the risk to the models and thus the contractual terms that were agreed to at the production of the models. :( Ahh well, just glad we at least have some of your brilliant work to play with in the game.

Hope it all gets sorted out.

Per Ardua.

why ? if i want to learn how x person did something or recover my work, the odol -> mlod tool is very handy for that

just cause I got a gun don't mean I"m gona kill someone with it

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why ? if i want to learn how x person did something ...

You could just ask them. ;)

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true. :(

so let me get it straight rock, this is not a case of "i don't want people peeping in my work" , this is a case of legal issues, correct? or a mix of both..

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true. :(

so let me get it straight rock' date=' this is not a case of "i don't want people peeping in my work" , this is a case of legal issues, correct? or a mix of both..[/quote']

Oh someone's been whispering in your ear haven't they. I've already heard the BS coming from my "fan club". Don't listen to rumours and conspiaracy theorists. They are just full of shit.

This recent change is purely about legal issues.

That aside, I've always beleived that people should respect another's work. That includes sticking to the EULAs attached to these addons.

You wouldn't rip open someones front door just to see what TV he has would you? Why is it ok for you to root around in someone else's addon? In 99% of cases its actually easier and far more productive to ask the author how they did it. You get a better explanation and you just might make a friend.

Do I think this tool is good for the community? No I dont. I can only see one purpose for it. Thats to rip models. Will everyone that uses it steal those models? No. But you can safely bet some of them will.

Edited by RKSL-Rock

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Surely it's pretty straightforward and easy to understand; Rocks models share content with stuff he's used commercially. If that stuff is inaccessible within an encrypted, ODOL format addon, thats fine. However, if that stuff is potentially liable to end up on Turbosquid, because ODOL is no longer secure, that leaves him potentially open to breaching his commercial contracts.

In his shoes, I'd take the very same decision. Theres no point risking your commercial work and your career in that area, even if the chance someone would rip his models and sell them on a site like TS is small. And given it's happened to him in the past (someone selling his models), it's not hard to imagine why he doesn't want to take that risk.

Why the conspiracy nuts and rumour nutjobs want to start on about whatever other BS they come up with is beyond me. That said, P:UKF and RKSL have been described as the Addon Mafia by the same conspiracy nuts, so me posting here will only confirm their suspicions to their poor, deluded brains.FPDR

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@Max Power

you might have missed the post in which was requested to keep your private flamewar out of this thread. So take this as reminder.

And to sum Rock's headache up for those who missed the point:

- Rock does modelling for living, he pays his bills with this work.

- some of his customers has agreed that he may release some of the models they buyed as community addon for free as long they're protected against unathorized manipulation (decrypting).

- in the past, models were safe as there was no tool to debinarize them. Although there were ways to get certain aspects of the model, they had enough downsides to say that there is no reasonable way to get full quality model data.

- now with the tool released, everyone could debinarize these models with just a few clicks, so they are no longer reasonably protected against abuse of whatever sort of.

- so now Rock can no longer release those planned addons as he know they could be abused without getting serious troubles.

@Pufu & Max Power

with all due respect, refrain of continuing your dispute and stick to the topic which isn't about if the tool is good or bad in general, for RKSL it is as bad as it could get.

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the binarization process is an optimization process, not an encryption process, pathy..

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the binarization process is an optimization process' date=' not an encryption process, pathy..[/quote']

But because there was no tool to undo the binarization process, it acted as such, by making it impossible for an unskilled thief to make a quick buck. This tool changes all that. This makes it so easy to steal and sell stuff, that anyone doing professional modeling would be stupid if they would continue to make any of their models available in addons. Before, it was a calculated risk with the handful of people skilled enough to steal from binarized files, now everyone can have a go.

Edited by JdB

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the binarization process is an optimization process' date=' not an encryption process, pathy..[/quote']

Thank you for explaining to me what Binarization is. I previously had no idea, having only been making addons since 2003 :rolleyes:

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I don't see what you're saying. I understand RKSL's case , personally if someone steals my stuff and sells them, I can report it if i find it, but that's just life. So what if it makes it easier, I'm still gona make stuff for the community to have fun with.

---------- Post added at 11:04 PM ---------- Previous post was at 11:03 PM ----------

Thank you for explaining to me what Binarization is. I previously had no idea, having only been making addons since 2003 :rolleyes:

I know that, but why did you use the word encryption? I don't think it fits very well.

Edited by Fox '09

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Because as JdB explained, it effectively did act as a form of encryption. Does it fucking matter if it 'fits well', or are you taking great pleasure in arguing semantics for the sake of it? The result is still the same; in the 'old days' you could 'encrypt' your addon through binarization, now you can't.

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My friend asked me to go to page 50+ and apparently there is some arguments. Why is everyone so pissed over some tools?

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Because, a specific tool has now become widely and easily available for people to rip models out of addons & ArmA II. Basically, RKSL had to cancel a bunch of projects (30 something IIRC) because the were related to, derived from, or used parts of their commercial work.

Because of the existence of this tool, Rock could be sued if somebody put one of his models on the internet. Therefor many of the projects he has spent years working on would now have to be rebuilt.

*Disclaimer: The above may or may not be correct, go through the last 10 pages to fully understand.*

Edited by Darkhorse 1-6

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@ Max Power - I asked nicely. Now I'm going to be as plain as i can possibly be.

Just F Off and stop posting in this thread. If you want to continue your pointless debate about symantics do it elsewhere. As usual your pedantic habit is derailing the thread.

I don't see what you're saying. I understand RKSL's case ' date=' personally if someone steals my stuff and sells them, I can report it if i find it, but that's just life. So what if it makes it easier, I'm still gona make stuff for the community to have fun with.[/quote']

Fox, just like Max Power you are missing the point completely. I'm truly happy for you that you are so unconcerned and chilled about the potential of theft. But come back to me when your models start paying your mortgage and let me know what you think then.

I've read what you posted in Max Power's Addon makers rights group. I fail to see how you can misunderstand the situation and the core issue here. Just like Max Power you seem intent on picking at everyone's words to twist what has been said to suit your own viewpoint.

I don't know how else to explain it here. And frankly I don't much care whether you think i should be using models I've sold in ArmA or not. The arrangement has worked for over 6 years but sadly its ended now. The change in IP and copyright law and the terms of my contracts mean i have far more liability that I previously had. This tool has effectively killed the ODOL format's status as "reasonably secure" and changed it irrevocably to "open".

This quite simply means I cannot in good conscience and still maintain the terms of my contracts release the affected models. All I've done is explain to the community at large that they will not be released and why. No amount of debating will change that.

Contrary to what others have said I've never said RKSL will never release anything new. We just cannot release those versions of those models. Which means IF i wanted to release those projects i would need to remake them from scratch. Causing a huge delay in the release dates.

And finally for those wondering why I've used models with "commercial ties" here are some facts:

  • There were 88 models in the planned for upcoming packs due for release over the next 6 months in various groups. 58 models including derivatives are affected.
  • All were originally made for ArmA2 but some were sold and the non commercial rights retained so they could still be used in ArmA. (Personally I thought the community would be more supportive given they get to use them for free).
  • The sale of these models means that I have been able to spend more time making ArmA content for you to use for free.
  • The contract terms up until now were quite simple. And focus around the moral obligation for each party to protect the others rights and Intellectual Property. The public release of this tool means that i have no choice.
  • No amount of debate will change the situation now
  • My motivation in retaining these rights is very simple. I wanted a full and complete UK faction in ArmA2. While the majority seem grateful for the effort and risk involved some here are repeatedly trying to make something out of this situation that just does not exist.
  • At no time have I said we will not continue. That decision has not been made.
  • No project is really cancelled yet. Some will likely be remade. But it is probable some will be cancelled in the future. I have yet to sit down and work out what i can still do in the time frame remaining.

End of discussion about my motives.

the binarization process is an optimization process' date=' not an encryption process, pathy..[/quote']
I know that' date=' but why did you use the word encryption? I don't think it fits very well.[/quote']

As others have said because the ODOL format is regarded as encryption by the majority of the community.

I know you and MaxPower are desperately pedantic and want to use the distinction as justification of your argument but the fact is that ODOL is a format that cannot be edited on its own. It needs to be converted/translated/decrypted. It is as simple as that.

Edited by RKSL-Rock
Formating

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makes sense to me now, thanks for clearing that up.

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Rock, I fully sympathise, but you are to a small degree messin with our heads.

- I for 1 want to see ALL your work in ArmA etc

- But if you started selling models/went commercial, then I for 1 don't expect to see them in ArmA anytime, no matter what your contract T&C's

- I dont see how you previously thought Binarization was "reasonably secure", and thus allowed you to consider release. Binarization's been reverse engineered EVERY time BIS did a revision.

Anyhow, best wishes on sorting it. Any release from addon makers like yourself has always been appreciated.

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Gnat;1711411']Rock' date=' I fully sympathise, but you are to a small degree messin with our heads.

- I for 1 want to see ALL your work in ArmA etc

- But if you started selling models/went commercial, then I for 1 don't expect to see them in ArmA anytime, no matter what your contract T&C's

- I dont see how you previously thought Binarization was "reasonably secure", and thus allowed you to consider release. Binarization's been reverse engineered EVERY time BIS did a revision.

Anyhow, best wishes on sorting it. Any release from addon makers like yourself has always been appreciated.[/quote']

How exactly am i supposedly "messin with you head"?

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that's a shame :(

but it has always been possible to 'rip' models from any game' date=' so long as it uses DirectX. I suppose MLODs make the process 'easier'

anyway, good luck on the stuff![/quote']

it happens all the time ... (rippers exist for both OpenGL 1-4 and Direct3D 6-11)

models stolen from any game are being resold on 'model selling' sites on weekly / monthly basis

the cry about the mlod exporter is bit funny because the only difference for these already using rippers is it means just bit less work to get all LODs

encryption would change nothing and they would still simply use the DX ripping method or break the encryption (remember it's clientside thus easy to break)

the wrong part there is someone steal work of others and try resell it or reuse w/o permission which is reason why You must proactively use C&D and lawyer's help

one of ways how protect own work is use special watermarks which are injected into textures and models and you can read them with special software (sort of like unique key)

which is very useful in court case ...

Edited by Dwarden

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...

the cry about the mlod exporter is bit funny because the only difference for these already using rippers is it means just bit less work to get all LODs

encryption would change nothing and they would still simply use the DX ripping method or break the encryption (remember it's clientside thus easy to break)...

I don't know how many times i have to say this. But the ease of the ripping is the issue that drives it over the line in legal terms. Its really is that simple.

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in short anywhere your models are used it's easy to rip them out ... You just don't know it ;) but that don't mean it's not possible ...

anyway i only tried to explain that no matter what steps are done to protect content it will not protect the content as You think ...

Edited by Dwarden

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in short anywhere your models are used it's easy to rip them out ... You just don't know it ;) but that don't mean it's not possible ...

anyway i only tried to explain that no matter what steps are done to protect content it will not protect the content as You think ...

I am painfully aware of the issues around protecting digital IP. Sadly Ive been the victim of theft several times in the past. As has BIS. What i dont understand is why BIS and others are so complacment about it.

Especially since in the past anyone publishing MLOD content or anything that breaks the EULA is pounced upon... and now. Nothing. I mean, the process of stealing a model has gone from a tricky and complex process requiring hours of work to clean up to a 2-3 click process that anyone one of any skill level can use. Surely thats got to be cause for serious concern?

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I feel for you man :( However, personally i dont think you should call it quits. Maybe pick a few big models eg nimrod, tornado etc and redo them, not all of them.

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Auch sorry to hear so many RKSL projects are canceld or have to be revised. I love your addons. But since many of it was apparantly part of your proffesional work we should coun't our blessings that you have released the things up to now and free of charge i might add.

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I would like to bold this since it's a good idea. Steganography :)

one of ways how protect own work is use special watermarks which are injected into textures and models and you can read them with special software (sort of like unique key)

which is very useful in court case ...

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