Abrams and other modern armor vs RPG

[walker]

Hi all

I am starting this thread so that the BIS "FlashNews Armour Hit Competition." does not go off topic.

I do not exclude other AT than RPG or Other Armor than the Abrams from this thread.

Basicly it is for us to discuss that perenial problem can the antitank weapon beat the tank.

In reply to Schattenlied in the BIS "FlashNews Armour Hit Competition."

Quote[/b] ]Hi Schattenlied

I realise you have come over all patriotic or something but in the real world soldiers and in particular officers underestimate their enemy at their peril...

http://www.flashpoint1985.com/cgi-bin....y925985

I now continue here:

An example of that is how badly the IDF got its arse kicked in Labanon recently.
Let us see what the profesionals think
http://jamestown.org/terrorism/news/...icleid=2370089

And now consider that Hezbollah did not just beat the tank Armor they beat the IDF's codes

Quote[/b] ]Hezbollah cracked Israeli radio code during war
Thursday, 21 September, 2006 @ 6:04 PM

AITA SHAAB, Lebanon - Hezbollah fighters were able to hack into Israeli radio communications during last month's battles in south Lebanon, an intelligence breakthrough that helped them thwart Israeli tank assaults, according to Hezbollah and Lebanese officials.

Using technology most likely supplied by Iran, special Hezbollah teams monitored the constantly changing radio frequencies of Israeli troops on the ground. That gave fighters a picture of Israeli movements, casualty reports and supply routes. It also allowed Hezbollah anti-tank units to more effectively target advancing Israeli armor, according to the officials.

"We were able to monitor Israeli communications, and we used this information to adjust our planning," said a Hezbollah commander involved in the battles, speaking on the condition of anonymity. The official refused to detail how Hezbollah was able to intercept and decipher Israeli transmissions. He acknowledged that fighters were not able to hack into Israeli communications around the clock.

The Israeli military refused to comment on whether its radio communications were compromised, citing security concerns. But a former Israeli general, who spoke on the condition of anonymity, said Hezbollah's ability to secretly hack into military transmissions had "disastrous" consequences for the Israeli offensive.

"Israel's military leaders clearly underestimated the enemy and this is just one example," he said...

http://yalibnan.com/site/archives/20...llah_crack.php
Follow link for full articel
It is somewhat sobering to consider that since the US and Israel uses similar technology it means the Iranians are probably listening in on US traffic in Iraq.

Consider also that the competition only says RPG it does not say RPG7 nor does it exclude the use of a tandem war head and of course there is the RPG-29 which did defeat the armor of Merkava tank which is said to be comparible to an Abrams.
Have a read:
http://jamestown.org/terrorism/news/...icleid=2370105

Of course that was a Merkava.. and being all patriotic or some such you might say "...but an RPG could not defeat an Abrams"

I beg to differ
As does reality
And the Army Times

Quote[/b] ]Something felled an M1A1 Abrams tank in Iraq but what?
Mystery behind Aug. 28 incident puzzles Army officials
By John Roos
Special to the Times

Shortly before dawn on Aug. 28, an M1A1 Abrams tank on routine patrol in Baghdad was hit by something that crippled the 69-ton behemoth.

Army officials still are puzzling over what that something was.

According to an unclassified Army report, the mystery projectile punched through the vehicles skirt and drilled a pencil-sized hole through the hull. The hole was so small that my little finger will not go into it, the reports author noted.

The something continued into the crew compartment, where it passed through the gunner seatback, grazed the kidney area of the gunners flak jacket and finally came to rest after boring a hole 1 to 2 inches deep in the hull on the far side of the tank.

As it passed through the interior, it hit enough critical components to knock the tank out of action. That made the tank one of only two Abrams disabled by enemy fire during the Iraq war and one of only a handful of mobility kills since they first rumbled onto the scene 20 years ago. The other Abrams knocked out this year in Iraq was hit by an RPG-7, a rocket-propelled grenade.

Experts believe whatever it is that knocked out the tank in August was not an RPG-7 but most likely something new and that worries tank drivers.

Mystery and anxiety

Terry Hughes is a technical representative from Rock Island Arsenal, Ill., who examined the tank in Baghdad and wrote the report.

In the sort of excited language seldom included in official Army documents, he said, The unit is very anxious to have this "SOMETHING" identified. It seems clear that a penetrator of a yellow molten metal is what caused the damage, but what weapon fires such a round and precisely what sort of round is it? The bad guys are using something unknown and the guys facing it want very much to know what it is and how they can defend themselves.

Nevertheless, the Abrams continues its record of providing extraordinary crew protection. The four-man crew suffered only minor injuries in the attack. The tank commander received "minor shrapnel wounds to the legs and arms and the gunner got some in his arm" as a result of the attack, according to the report.

Whatever penetrated the tank created enough heat inside the hull to activate the vehicle's Halon firefighting gear, which probably prevented more serious injuries to the crew.

The soldiers of 2nd Battalion, 70th Armor Regiment, 1st Armor Division who were targets of the attack weren't the only ones wondering what damaged their 69-ton tank.

Hughes also was puzzled. "Can someone tell us?"he wrote. "If not, can we get an expert on foreign munitions over here to examine this vehicle before repairs are begun? Please respond quickly."

His report went to the office of the combat systems program manager at the U.S. Army Tank-automotive and Armaments Command in Warren, Mich. A command spokesman said he could provide no information about the incident.

"The information is sensitive," he said. "it looks like [members of the program manager's office] are not going to release any information right now."

While it's impossible to determine what caused the damage without actually examining the tank, some conclusions can be drawn from photos that accompanied the incident report. Those photos show a pencil-size penetration hole through the tank body, but very little sign of the distinctive damage "called spalling" that typically occurs on the inside surface after a hollow- or shaped-charge warhead from an anti-tank weapon burns its way through armor.

Spalling results when an armor penetrator pushes a stream of molten metal ahead of it as it bores through an armored vehicle's protective skin.

"It's a real strange impact," said a source who has worked both as a tank designer and as an anti-tank weapons engineer. "This is a new one. " It almost definitely is a hollow-charge warhead of some sort, but probably not an RPG-7" anti-tank rocket-propelled grenade.

The well-known RPG-7 has been the scourge of lightly armored vehicles since its introduction more than 40 years ago. Its hollow-charge warhead easily could punch through an M1's skirt and the relatively thin armor of its armpit joint, the area above the tracks and beneath the deck on which the turret sits, just where the mystery round hit the tank.

An RPG-7 can penetrate about 12 inches of steel ' a thickness far greater than the armor that was penetrated on the tank in Baghdad. But the limited spalling evident in the photos accompanying the incident report all but rules out the RPG-7 as the culprit, experts say.

Limited spalling is a telltale characteristic of Western-manufactured weapons designed to defeat armor with a cohesive jet stream of molten metal. In contrast, RPG-7s typically produce a fragmented jet spray.

The incident is so sensitive that most experts in the field would talk only on the condition that they not be identified.

One armor expert at Fort Knox, Ky., suggested the tank may have been hit by an updated RPG. About 15 years ago, Russian scientists created tandem-warhead anti-tank-grenades designed to defeat reactive armor. The new round, a PG-7VR, can be fired from an RPG-7V launcher and might have left the unusual signature on the tank...

http://www.armytimes.com/story.php?f...36-2336437.php
follow link for the full story

So once again do not underestimate your enemy.

Kind Regards Walker

[Donnervogel]

Hmm I'm especially concerned about the radio cracking. As far as I have been informed the israelis use a similar system to the swiss army and from what I know about it (I guess I am not allowed to tell details about it) it is considered very secure. However if the enemy got hold of a device that is used to load the digital radio equipment with the cypher codes AND a classified military radio net plan he would be able to listen to the communication. However this would be very concerning considering the policy that when one of those things goes missing all codes get changed and all radios reloaded with new codes. So this rather suggests they got hold of the IDF code set without actually stealing one of those devices wich would suggest high level espionage or a traitor inside the IDF.

[WhoCares]

I thought I'd add the link and the quote (emphasis added) I also referenced to in the Armor Competition thread:
Abrams Tank Systems: Lessons Learned Operation Iraqi Freedom 2003

Quote[/b] ]Frontal turret and hull armor continues to provide excellent crew protection. Top, side, and rear armor remains susceptible to penetration
- Documented instances where 25mm AP-DU and above ammunition disabled a tank from the rear
- Left and right side non-ballistic skirts repeatedly penetrated by anti-armor RPG fire
- Cosmetic damage only when struck by anti-personnel RPG rounds
- No reported hits on ballistic skirts
- No reported instance of tank hitting an anti-tank mine

[Mr Burns]

Quote[/b] ]MEMORANDUM FOR RECORD

The following information is provided concerning a Malfunction/Accident/Incident involving TACOM equipment:

a. Location of MAIR: Baghdad, Iraq

b. Date and Time of MAIR: 5:20 AM (before dawn), 28 August 2003.

c. Identification of Unit involved: 2/70 Armor Battalion, 1 AD

d. Injuries/Fatalities: The Tank Commander received minor shrapnel wounds to the legs and arms and the Gunner got some in his arm.

e. Identification of Weapon/Ammunition/Equipment/Vehicle (SN, bumper #, ammo lot #) Involved: M1A1 Tank, serial number L13170, bumper number B 24.

f. Property Damage: The #4 right-hand skirt (TM 9-2350-264- 24P-1 dated March 2003, Figure 274, Item 17, NSN 2510-01-166- 2049, p/n 12323656), the Hull, the NBC hose behind the Gunner’s Seat (TM 9-2350-264-23P-2, dated April 2003, Figure 225, Item 13, NSN 4720-01-320-5774, p/n 12324460-9), the back of the Gunner’s seat (Figure 137, Items 1 & 30, Frame NSN 2540-01-362-5768, p/n 12931155, Cushion NSN 2540-01-144-1458, p/n 12312153), the safety guard that stands upright on the loaders side of the slip ring cover (Figure 132, Item 28, NSN 1015-01-250-5976, p/n 9377649), and the TNB (Figure 139, Item 22, NSN 5975-01-316-9270, p/n 12549752) were all damaged. The skirt and hull can be repaired by the unit, the safety guard is still serviceable, and they can replace the others. The TNB is beyond repair because the housing is damaged.

g. Description of Incident: While on patrol the tank was hit by “something”. There is a hole in the #4 Right-hand skirt. Because of the classified nature of the insides of the skirt, the hole is covered by paper in this photo. The hole is about the diameter of a pencil. My little finger will not go into it. It is in the skirt proper very near where the bead weld makes a ninety-degree turn to go up for the hinge. On the inside the skin protrudes slightly around the hole. From there the “something” traveled over the track and below the deck entering the hull with the same size hole.

h. Other Pertinent Information: The unit is very anxious to have this “SOMETHING” identified. It seems clear that a penetrator of a yellow molten metal is what caused the damage, but what weapon fires such a round and precisely what sort of round is it? The bad guys are using something unknown and the guys facing it want very much to know what it is and how they can defend themselves against it. Can someone tell us? If not, can we get an expert on foreign munitions over here to exam this vehicle before repairs are begun? Please respond quickly. Also, the TC of the second tank was very frustrated as he attempted to return fire by a lack of a night vision sight for the .50 CAL MG. He said the launch point appeared to be about 100 meters away. The unit went back after daylight to try to find evidence of what was fired but everything, even the .50 CAL brass from the second tank was gone. The only thing they found was the muzzle plug from B24 which popped off when it was hit.
i. Radioactive Devices:

Were any radioactive devices involved? No.
If yes, Name of item:
Was the Source damaged?
If damaged, was a wipe test performed? 2003-09-30 IOP NO. FSO-3
j. Weather Condition/Type of terrain: Approximately 70 degrees and dry/an urban street market

k. Cause of MAIR: Enemy action

l. Authorized Usage: Yes

m. Cargo/How loaded: N/A

n. Fire Suppression System (available/activated - tracked vehicles): The crew expressed their heartfelt thanks to the designers of the Halon fire suppression system.

o. Will TI be performed? Already done.

p. Follow-up Report Required? (If TIed, follow-up is required.) Yes_, (M1 FOV, Fires, only).

q. Source of information for this report: The TC and gunner and the TC of another tank that was nearby at the time of the attack.

r. Date/Time of Report Preparation: 29 September 2003, 1900 hours.

s. POC. Name, telephone number, and email address, of submitting TACOM LAR and Local points, of contact for further information is: Terry Hughes thughes@larnet1.ria.army.mil.

t. Remarks for M1 FOV fires (part number/NSN of parts repaired/replaced): N/A

In the offtopic thread from this forums i think all military educated people came to the conclusion that the "something" was an RPG-7v (or 7vr?) with a tandem warhead.

Pics to the memo can be found here

[VISTREL]

As far as I know, most of damage was inflicted by RPG29 vampyre and ATGM - Kornet.

Regular RPG-7s won't do much damage to modern armor unless it's a lucky shot. However, RPG-7 is not limited to warhead capacity. It can be used to mount wide range of all kinds of warheads with different armor piercing capacity, ranging from anti-infantry rockets to huge Tandem anti-reactive armor rockets.

[Balschoiw]

It was a more than lucky shot.

btw, Vistrel is that Hitler flashing in your avatar ?

[walker]

Hi Mr Burns

My only question is what was the yellow molten metal.

It seems to have been used in a similar fashion to a copper head penetrators used by the west. Could it have been a brass alloy a form of bronze a copper alloy or even perhaps gold!? The colour is important as whoever developed this technology seems to have stolen a march on us in warhead design and choice of deforming alloy component.

If it is just the a straight Rusian tandem warhead then fine all is as it should be but I have not heard about the deforming alloy component to the tandem warhead.

More worying is if it was developed in the Middle East.

We know Hezbollah have been experimenting with shaped charge IED weapons very succesfully against the IDF for some years now. As I said above, the effect has been to allow them to learn how to defeat modern armor. I reccomend this assesment as a read to all those here.

Quote[/b] ]Crossroads at the Litani
by retired colonel in the U.S. Air Force Reserve Chet Richards

As its tanks file back from the Litani River, the Israel Defense Force (IDF) joins the club of advanced military forces that have failed against non-state enemies. It’s a growing fraternity that already includes France, Britain, India, the USSR, and, of course, the United States. What happens next, however, is more interesting than the loss itself.

In the near term, Israelis can be forgiven some pessimism...

http://www.taylormarsh.com/archives_view.php?id=24472
Follow link for the full article

I think even members of the IDF have now realised there has been a serious strategic error in the last few years of failure to reach a stable peace and keeping a low level war running.

Quote[/b] ]...an effective opponent to the IDF has finally evolved. The Israelis have fought the Arabs so long that they have violated an ancient rule of strategy: Don’t train your enemies. The Lycurgan Law of Sparta explicitly warned against repeated attacks on the same enemy. It served them well for centuries, but when Sparta flouted this rule against emerging rival Thebes, it lost so decisively at Leuctra (371 B.C.) that it never recovered...

Ibid

Might it be that that technology Hezbollah developed in its IEDs has now been transfered to an AT missile system? An Hezbollah or Iranian or Syrian developed RPG warhead that they wanted to test?

Such a development would be far more disturbing as it would mean that they have a home grown armaments industry capable of producing an unlimited number of MBT killers.

At least if it is Russian they can only get what they buy and we can work strategies to reduce it.

If the system is home grown then all bets are off. They can manufacture as many as they want and fit it to any form of projector.

Kind Regards Walker

[Mr Burns]

As i´m one of the uneducated bystanders from the past discussion i could only tell from memory that people assumed the warhead utilized a shaped copper charge.
Although from videos you could see that russian warheads using molten copper leave a different looking splash pattern than the one we saw on the abrams, but then again these were intercepted by arena. afair Balschoiw was into this aswell, maybe he can tell further details.

[Hellfish6]

It was eventually shown that it was a PG-7VR round that penetrated the Abrams. It was a 1-in-1000 shot. Nothing complicated about it.

Check out the archives at Tank-net where a lot of very smart Russians and Americans discussed it.

[WhoCares]

As far as I know, most of damage was inflicted by RPG29 vampyre and ATGM - Kornet.

When you check the Powerpoint presentation I linked above you will find a point stating that no shot of an ATGM against US forces was reported and no Kornet was found in the whole country. (which does not neccessarily means that did not happen or exist...)