European Politics Thread.

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[Ex-RoNiN]

I would like to raise the issue of FYROM.

Quote[/b] ]Greece has protested strongly at a decision by the US to refer to the Former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia (FYROM) simply as "Macedonia".

Greece has waged a long campaign to deny its northern neighbour use of the Macedonia name, which is also that of a northern Greek province.

FYROM President Branko Crvenkovski hailed a "great day" for his country.

Greece has made a formal complaint at "this unilateral US decision", saying it would have "many negative effects".

A US State Department official told BBC News that: "The US has decided to refer to Macedonia as the Republic of Macedonia."

The US said the decision was not meant to anger Greece, but to reward Macedonia for its commitment to democracy, the AFP news agency said.

Foreign ministry spokesman George Koumoutsakos said US Secretary of State Colin Powell had telephoned to say "that the decision is not a turn against Greece and is not linked to the US elections".


Greece and FYROM have held United Nations-led talks on the issue for more a decade.

'Negative effects'


The BBC's Matt Prodger says the US move will be a boost for the Macedonian government ahead of a controversial referendum aimed at overturning legislation giving more rights to the minority ethnic Albanians.

"Today is a great day for Macedonia and all Macedonians wherever they are," Mr Crvenkovski said.

"My message to the Greek government and to the Greek people is that the Republic of Macedonia is strongly determined to continue to build friendly and good-neighbourly relations."

But Greek Foreign Minister Petros Molyviatis said: "Apart from our protest, I noted the many negative effects that this unilateral US decision will have."

He has cancelled a trip to the EU summit in Brussels to deal with the issue.

Embargo

Successive Greek governments have refused to recognise the name "Macedonia", because they fear it implies a territorial claim on the northern Greek province of that name.

The name is also seen as a part of Greek heritage.

The dispute began with the break-up of the former Yugoslavia in 1991.

Greece imposed an economic embargo on its neighbour until it agreed to be referred to as the "Former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia" - a name which most of its inhabitants dislike.

Last month, US Defence Secretary Donald Rumsfeld signed a co-operation agreement referring to the country simply as Macedonia.

Source: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/3981499.stm

As you may guess, I am strictly against this and I regard it as a very worrying move by the United States, who inadvertedly give weight to the claims of FYROM's nationalists to unite "all" of "Macedonia".

http://www.vmro.org/stari/maps/boue.jpg

This is a map that is being shown around in FYROM - it shows the Greek province of Macedonia as part of a greater FYROM. Clearly there are sinister ambitions there.

So how is our sovereignty at threat?

Firstly, as pointed out, nationalists in FYROM have an ambition to integrate the Greek province of Macedonia into their country, as shown on that map, which is not old, but current, and written in Cyrillic or whatever they use up there.

Either way, the issue is as follows - if a country has the same name as a region in a neighbouring country, then it is understandable how that country might be encouraged to try and claim this region in her name. It is Greece's fear that FYROM will soon attempt this, and I believe this is a well-founded fear, considering how unstable the former Yugoslav countries are.

For reference, the "Macedonians" were one of many Hellenic "tribes", which were city states and surrounding regions, but part of the same ethnic group. For example, the Spartans and the Ionians as well as the Athenians were all (and still are) Greek. So are the Macedonians, they are a Greek ethnic group, and their ancestors live in the Greek province of Macedonia.

FYROM, on the other hand, has no ethnic ties with Greece or the "Macedonians" as it is a slavic country, much like any other part of the former Yugoslavia, Russia, Ukraine, etc. The Slavs and the Greeks are two very distinct ethnicities with notable visual differences.

Whilst the widespread opinion is "Why bother, its just a name?", I am afraid that the nationalists in FYROM won't see it that way. The Balkans are Europe's wound, and it takes a lot of stitching to keep them closed. Stupid moves like this one can tear the whole thread out, thus opening the wound again. In other words, it is my opinion that if the UN and the EU do not put their weight behind the fact that this country's name is FYROM, then we will have a war at our hands very soon. The non-Albanians in FYROM fear the Albanians and their attempts at creating a greater Albania, so to counter that it makes "sense" (from their point of view) to enlarge themselves for "self-defence."

You can call it paranoia if you like, but then you don't know the Balkans very well. This is a potentially explosive situation, as nationalism is a very serious issue. If they do go to war over this, it could eventually plunge the whole of the Balkans into war again...

[Akira]

If Yugoslavia has no ties, nor ethnic similarities to Greece, or even common heritage, why do they want to be called Macedonia so bad? What is the name to them exactly, knowing that there is a neighboring Greek province of that name?


Also the map didn't come up for me.

[denoir]

Well, I know a thing or two about the Balkans and Greece is behaving like an ass. It's right out embarrasing nationalism bordering on chauvinism.

Macedonia has really done nothing to deserve such a treatment. They just want to keep the name they've had since the 9th century.

The Greek argument over the dual names is plain bullshit. There are plenty of regions in Sweden and Finland that have overlapping names without no problems. The same goes for instance with the Slovenia/Austria border and you don't see the Slovenes or the Austrians whine about it do you?

Nationalism and melodrama, that's what it is. I think that the US move was a very good one and I really hope the EU will do the same soon.

Good reading: Wikipedia on Macedonia

[Ex-RoNiN]

I have a second mirror:




As for why? Well, I don't know Maybe they think they have a right to have it because they have the same name? Maybe Greed? Maybe just random nationalism? I have NO idea why. Maybe they see themselves as the rightful successors to Alexander, who knows. Its probably down to the fact that heritage and nationalism were suppressed under Tito, and now they are struggling to find an identity.

[Bordoy]

Ok, can all now refer the UK as the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland. You cannot split us up

[kerosene]

Greece has made a formal complaint at "this unilateral US decision", saying it would have "many negative effects".

Lol, like what?

"oh shit. Im in the wrong country, AGAIN, if only the Macedonians werent so inconsiderate"

[IsthatyouJohnWayne]

How precisely might Macedonia go about taking the province of greek Macedonia from Greece? Militarily? I think the EU, not to mention the UN and US would have something to say about that. Perhaps they could try via negotiation, but then of course the opinion of the inhabitants would be paramount. So for now, i will be content to call it nationalist paranoia.

[CounterForce]

The greek position is only based on stupid nationalism.
And the reasons they give make me laughing.
denoir has written enough on this topic. I totally agree with him

[Postduifje]

Indeed, a really strange situation. I'm not an expert in this matter, but I must say I'm unable to understand what all the fuss is about...