USA Politics Thread - *No gun debate*

[Panda[PL]]

This is bloody ridiculous!

"what would make YOU like USA.
And please answer with sollutions, and not copy-paste some nice speech with lots of nice generalities.
Imagine you are the president and have majority in congress. They come to you and ask what you wanna do and you need to be specific."

It is a formal argument.
It's a great question. In every debate the basic thing is to ask what kind of evidence would sway your opponenet. He has two choices:
1) admitt there is nothing that could possibly change his mind (and we can all go home)
2) name a few kinds of arguments that would sway you if shown true (and we work with this set criteria)

Actually you appealed to ridicule which falls under one.
You are free to hold your beliefs and you are free to be inconsistent and irrational in them. Feel free.

As to historical argument: my point was some people are more entitled to have pride than others (who cannot stand to ***watch National Geographic). Some people are entitled to national shame but they still feel proud.

[Snafu]

@ Oct. 03 2008,10:27)]

This is bloody ridiculous!

"what would make YOU like USA.
And please answer with sollutions, and not copy-paste some nice speech with lots of nice generalities.
Imagine you are the president and have majority in congress. They come to you and ask what you wanna do and you need to be specific."

It is a formal argument.
It's a great question. In every debate the basic thing is to ask what kind of evidence would sway your opponenet. He has two choices:
1) admitt there is nothing that could possibly change his mind (and we can all go home)
2) name a few kinds of arguments that would sway you if shown true (and we work with this set criteria)

Actually you appealed to ridicule which falls under one.
You are free to hold your beliefs and you are free to be inconsistent and irrational in them. Feel free.

As to historical argument: my point was some people are more entitled to have pride than others (who cannot stand to ***watch National Geographic). Some people are entitled to national shame but they still feel proud.

I think our wires have been crossed.

I never stated I hate the USA, I love the place. If I didn't like It I would never go there. As I have stated before I have family there. I have no reason to hate it.

How about reading what I posted instead of Scubaman3D's assumptions about me?

[Panda[PL]]

Allright snafu:
What would USA need to do to make you love it more?
Or would you change nothing?

I did read from your posts they are not a responsible superpower. I dismiss the charity argument, but I don't want to get into that since it's a bigger topic.

My oppinion on superpowers is that USA is dooing what I'd like them to do. They try to establish influences in various areas, like they allways did. And in each case the order thay are trying to establish is better than the alternatives and we do end up with better place (that is if they stay long enougth).
The only time you can blame them is when they pull out prematurely - this is when they loose wars and results ae not positive.
The present conflicts are more simmilar to the past ones than one could expect. They are simply reported different.

[Chops]

[QUOTE=(gsleighter @ Oct. 03 2008,16:34)]

It is powerful right now, but the world is changing rapidly. Who's to say Russia or China won't be in a position militarily to challenge the US in a decade.

Do you have an argument against guns besides "Guns are bad?"

Hehehee! Are you serious? Russia or China invading the US in the next ten years?

Exactly how are either of these countries going to overtake the US/NATO military in 10 years?

Where did I say guns are bad? I didn't. I said fear of an invasion is ridiculous.

It's this kind of attitude at a government level that has so damaged the reputation of the US in the wider world. Seeing the world in black and white. Enemies or allies. With us or against us.

"John MCain knows how to win a war" Sarah Palin.

Which one would that be exactly?

[scubaman3D]

Well why are Russia and China building their respective militaries at a rate more comparable to wartime than peace time?

Do you think they intend to challenge each other, or do you think they intend to challenge the US?

[gsleighter]

Chops, you may not know about Russia and China's military buildup, or the sale of high tech SAM systems to Iran, or more than a billion dollars of weapons being sold to Venezuela. That's all for a different thread. What you keep dodging, though, is "Why is personal firearms ownership a bad thing?"

Americans also own weapons to keep our own government from sliding backwards into tyranny.

[Chops]

What you keep dodging, though, is "Why is personal firearms ownership a bad thing?"

Quote me saying that! ***Your country do what you want with it. I don't care either way. You're just waiting to quote the 2nd amendment or whatever it is.

Chops, you may not know about Russia and China's military buildup, or the sale of high tech SAM systems to Iran, or more than a billion dollars of weapons being sold to Venezuela. That's all for a different thread.

Is this build up anything like the vast arsenal of chemical weapons Iraq had? OK, tell me, or provide some links to any non-crackpot websites where any nation on earth is a viable military threat to the US. Type military spending into Google and get back to me.

Americans also own weapons to keep our own government from sliding backwards into tyranny.

My point exactly. Even you're own government is viewed as a potential enemy.

[Second]

Chops, you may not know about Russia and China's military buildup, or the sale of high tech SAM systems to Iran, or more than a billion dollars of weapons being sold to Venezuela. That's all for a different thread.

Is this build up anything like the vast arsenal of chemical weapons Iraq had? OK, tell me, or provide some links to any non-crackpot websites where any nation on earth is a viable military threat to the US. Type military spending into Google and get back to me.

Americans also own weapons to keep our own government from sliding backwards into tyranny.

My point exactly. Even you're own government is viewed as a potential enemy.

Yup, It's just weird to see that (some) US people are actually still afraid of Red Dawn. I thought we 5 million people country here in arm's pit of Russia should be worried (well we are some amount), but no: it's US across Atlantic and Pacific ocean which should be worried about might tyrantic evil empire of Russia. This is classical stuff. ***

Besides amount of additional money on defence budget isn't any more than add to other goverment's budgets.

About tyranny of goverment: Well hey, UN black choppers and stuff. You - never - can't - be - too - sure. ***

[scubaman3D]

Even you're own government is viewed as a potential enemy.

Hell yes.

They answer to us and they should never forget that.

Its something that you may never understand unless you were raised here.

[echo1]

Americans also own weapons to keep our own government from sliding backwards into tyranny.

So, the government turns into an evil tyranny backed up by the army. What are a bunch of rednecks with AR-15s going to do? Lets face it, when the 2nd ammendment was written, wars were fought completely differently to how they are fought today. Back then a stockpile of muskets was all you needed. Now you need anti-tank, anti-air, mines, explosives, mortars etc etc etc to have half a chance of fighting against an even somewhat well equipped army. The way I see it, American legislators should really look at what the Second Ammendment is about and make one of two choices -

A) That the citizenry have a right to fight off oppressors and they should be allowed to stockpile huge quantities of whatever weaponry they desire. (This could "possibly" be slightly impractical and dangerous)

B) The law was an example of revolutionary saber-rattling drafted in a completely different age to the one we currently inhabit, and is thus out of date and unnecessary.

I don't know how it is anywhere else, but here in Ireland, guns are quite rare, and only sporting arms can be purchased, (ie. shotguns, single shot rifles, 22-calibre target weapons) our police force is unarmed, and we still have one of the lowest rates of crime anywhere in the world. I'm not entirely convinced about the need to carry around pistols and assault weapons to defend oneself, especially considering the amount of people killed by their own guns.