USA Politics Thread - *No gun debate*

[Panda[PL]]

Balschoiw: is gasoline and electricity I buy at some point state-sponsored? If so I'd love to hear about it, because AFAIK my goverment taxes the hell out of gasoline.

What i say is: green energy is too expensive once you level the playing field. Once you apply the same taxation, once you apply the same sponsoring.

[Balschoiw]

Quote[/b] ]Green energy might have become a "job machine", but it is costing you the important jobs.

Where ?
Please give me some numbers to compare.

Quote[/b] ]It's inflating the cost of living nationally

Same as above.

Quote[/b] ]What you have is a load of people getting state sponsored/enforced work at the expense of the lucrative and productive private sector.

Same as above.

Quote[/b] ]For a country that relies on global exports for it's wealth, Germany is a very poor example of a country that stands to benefit from this kind of thing.

Cough. We´re world export leaders and world technology leaders in this segment.

Quote[/b] ]Energy security is a traditional need for Germany, I can understand the need to pay more for that, but to pretend that it is a money maker, that is just utterly wrong.

It is already so I guess you´re wrong ?

Quote[/b] ]You also know you got help with the loans to buy the kit.

I could have taken a loan but I didn´t need it.

Quote[/b] ]You have personally coined it in at the expense of your fellow countrymen and used "green" as your justification for doing so.

Not really. I went out of the house-selling deal with a minus concerning this as I was not making money with it as I was still in the runup phase where you don´t make money with it. To make it easy. The investment was not paid off by the time it got sold and as you sell a house as a package I didn´t get the full investment from the buyers.

[Balschoiw]

Quote[/b] ]Balschoiw: is gasoline and electricity I buy at some point state-sponsored?

I don´t know about your country but it certainly is here in germany.
Examples: New refining technologies get sponsored by the state, new electricity storage solutions get sponsored by the state, facilities to store nuclear waste are sponsored by the state, methods of co2 storage in the soil used by coal power plants are sponsored by the state....
So yes, I´d say that we pay the price for their profit not only when plugging in a socket or fueling the car.

[Panda[PL]]

Examples: New refining technologies get sponsored by the state, new electricity storage solutions get sponsored by the state, facilities to store nuclear waste are sponsored by the state, methods of co2 storage in the soil used by coal power plants are sponsored by the state....
So yes, I´d say that we pay the price for their profit not only when plugging in a socket or fueling the car.

You're very far from being specific. You have to do better if you want to present a serious argument.
- what is the purpose of new refining technologies? What are the advantages? Does it lower the price of gasoline, or is it sponsored from gasoline taxation? (in which case it's a scam).
- are special storages for nuclear waste so expansive because of overzelous regulations? Do those regulations lower the price of energy?
- does storage of co2 affect the actual price of energy? Other than avoiding of state regulated sanctions?

From what I can guess these programs do not aim to lower the price of the product.
in case of gasoline I suspect the tax payed by consumers alone is tenfolds greater than any goverment money "donated".

There is no such thing as energy storage. Energy storage reads energy waste. The efficiency is low. Only gravity storage type facilities are functional.
It is much better to be able to adjust production to demand and perhabs this is where reaserch should be going.


There is no net gain from converting a country to actual green energy. Otherwise it would have happened.
Investors would stand in line to have a part in it.

Any advantage you have from using green energy in your country ceases to be an advantage once scale changes.
so I conclude:
the advantage is artifically created at the state (and EU) level. Perhabs by discriminating agains CO2 emmiters, perhabs by taxing gasoline like crazy, perhabs even by asupporting green energy financially.

[Baff1]

Quote[/b] ]Green energy might have become a "job machine", but it is costing you the important jobs.

Where ?
Please give me some numbers to compare.

Quote[/b] ]It's inflating the cost of living nationally

Same as above.

Quote[/b] ]What you have is a load of people getting state sponsored/enforced work at the expense of the lucrative and productive private sector.

Same as above.

Quote[/b] ]For a country that relies on global exports for it's wealth, Germany is a very poor example of a country that stands to benefit from this kind of thing.

Cough. We´re world export leaders and world technology leaders in this segment.

Quote[/b] ]Energy security is a traditional need for Germany, I can understand the need to pay more for that, but to pretend that it is a money maker, that is just utterly wrong.

It is already so I guess you´re wrong ?

Quote[/b] ]You also know you got help with the loans to buy the kit.

I could have taken a loan but I didn´t need it.

Quote[/b] ]You have personally coined it in at the expense of your fellow countrymen and used "green" as your justification for doing so.

Not really. I went out of the house-selling deal with a minus concerning this as I was not making money with it as I was still in the runup phase where you don´t make money with it. To make it easy. The investment was not paid off by the time it got sold and as you sell a house as a package I didn´t get the full investment from the buyers.

I'm sorry to hear you didn't make money on that Mate.
I like to see people getting rich.

I hope you won't take offence when I say you haven't been a very good advert for the economic viability of green energy sources.
The figures you gave me showed that it was unviable without government subsidy/price manipulation.
And your personal experience has shown that even in the most incredibly weighted market conditions, a man as switched on as yourself has managed to make a loss on it. (As has the previous owner of your new house when he sold his Geothermal to you).



The figures I will quote you for the additional expense to German export goods are the same figures you gave me for the guarenteed sale price of your solar generated electricity vs the price you were paying for buying off the national grid.

My opinion is based solely off the evidence you have provided me.
Your governments solar power initiative has raised the price of electricity across the board for everyone, including all your manufacturing industries.
The price of everything in the country has been raised to meet that increased overhead.

I'm sure you are as acutely aware of the recent inflation in energy prices as everybody else.
Green energies have had their part to play in this.

[NoRailgunner]

Back to topic
Failin' Palin: As Putin rears his head
Sorry but what did the old man and god-fearing woman stands for - step back into old days?

[scubaman3D]

You mean, you're changing the topic back to a previous one?

I read the transcript. I think its obvious what she's referring to - that Russian military aircraft regularly probe US air space over Alaska.

This is weak criticism - arguments over how something is said, rather than the substance of the statement.

I think we should be using this standard against Obama. He's running for president and has less foreign policy experience than Pailin, who is the VP.

If we think Pailin is inexperienced when it comes to international relations, what does it say about Obama?

[froggyluv]

I'm sorry to keep disagreeing here but I honestly don't get the feeling that Gov.Palin has a firm grasp of International Politics and security matters as a whole. Granted, Obama may not have a lot of experience here either but he seems to have the intellect and critical thinking attributes needed to function at that level. Sen. McCain certainly has a firm grasp of these matters as well, I just disagree with the last 8 years of Isolationism and 'American Cowboy' way of thinking and sense he is headed in this direction.

[Red Oct]

In case nobody was watching, Congress voted down the 700 billion dollar bail-out for wall st.
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/26884523/

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/21134540...45513#26944027

for once the democrats in congress didn't arbitrary follow Bush's orders.

[scubaman3D]

I'm sorry to keep disagreeing here but I honestly don't get the feeling that Gov.Palin has a firm grasp of International Politics and security matters as a whole. Granted, Obama may not have a lot of experience here either but he seems to have the intellect and critical thinking attributes needed to function at that level. Sen. McCain certainly has a firm grasp of these matters as well, I just disagree with the last 8 years of Isolationism and 'American Cowboy' way of thinking and sense he is headed in this direction.

I think its unfair to judge a persons problem solving skills off of a couple of clips in an interview with a person who isn't exactly "Republican Friendly".

As I said, in that position, I'm sure I would look just as foolish and I'm a scientist, for goodness sake.

And its not that Obama "doesn't have a lot of experience" - he has no experience in these matters. His claim to fame is as a worker for Acorn - an organization well known to be involved with voter fraud.

I'll tell you what, the thought of that man running this country scares the hell out of me. You think he didn't have his hands in the Freddie/Fannie mess? You should look into how much money he got from them. Same for the so-called "black-caucus" in Congress. Their pockets are all lined with F/F money to provide "affordable housing" (i.e. sub-prime mortgages) for the lower class.

Those houses aren't so affordable anymore...

@Red Oct - you have a fundamental lack of understand of American politics if you think the Democrats "follow Bush's orders".

I mean, whats in your head? Only ~1/2 the # of Republicans voted yes as Democrats. The Republicans didn't "follow orders" as you say.