You choose to ignore part of my post, so I shall repost it.
Originally Posted by [b
You choose to ignore part of my post, so I shall repost it.
Originally Posted by [b
I know I shouldn't encourage such behaivour, but it's drunken comedy gold.
Originally Posted by Sputnik Monroe
Baron - dude, I'm gonna try to say this in the friendliest possible way...
IMO, both religious extremists and atheist extremists are utterly annoying and only do harm instead of good.
Choosing to just come up to people and say that their whole religious experiences are a bunch of total bullshit because they are retarded and are not fully educated is a very bad choice to make.
I have nothing against atheists. Many of my friends are atheists and I fully understand them. But they don't go around trying to cram their ideas into peoples minds like dictators, do they?
I like having peaceful discussions like this with reasonable people like Denoir, but when somebody like you comes in goes:
"Don't talk nonsense. Go to school." to somebody like Ex-Ronin, I find it both offensive and amusing.
You are being quite hypocritical in your statements, and also I fear you cold-bloodedly hurt shiRaiden's feelings for his religion - he says he had a unique religious experience - that doesn't make him crazy. Quite the opposite. I've heard from a lot of people the same thing and even I have. If you don't believe us, then don't. But you do not have the power to just say that we didn't have that experience. You are not a 'supernatural being'.
To sum it up, if people want to believe something that may be untrue in your eyes, then boohoo. You can't change that by just cramming your version down their throats.
Have a nice day.
E: F00kin typos - they're rebelling against me.
I may be an atheist, but I'm never this abrasive .Originally Posted by [b
Nothing wrong with the holidays, I just view them as a time to receive pointless knick-knacks.Originally Posted by [b
Winter- Solstice?Originally Posted by (whisperFFW06 @ April 08 2004,17:46)
Same time as Xmas??
Sorry, that was because I already mentioned in this thread my attitude to these things IRL.Originally Posted by (ozanzac @ April 08 2004,17:51)
IRL I do not bother religious people as long as they don't force things on me. I am quite happy for them to do whatever they like in the privacy of their own homes/ churches/ mosques whatever. I will not burst in and shout at them that they are stupid.
There are very few religious people that I know, I live in a modern, rational country. Most people are irreligious or atheist.
I do have some religious friends, and it is not an issue. I also was good friends with an Army padre in training before he joined a different unit.
I do not do that. This is an internet forum; we can exchange opinions frankly and fully.Originally Posted by (Scorpio @ April 08 2004,18:18)
Neither do IOriginally Posted by [b
And when people say something that is TOTALLY nonsense I tell them so. The comment from ex ronin was completely untrue.Originally Posted by [b
Is that just because it was a 'religious experience'? If he believed he had an experience with aliens or ghosts would you treat it the same way? Sorry, but I think THAT is hypocritical, treating delusions specially just 'because they are religious.'Originally Posted by [b
I'm not saying you didn't think you had an experience. I'm saying two things:Originally Posted by [b
1) Personal experience is not valid evidence or 'reason' for someone else to believe you.
2) You could just be hallucination or self deluded - you would not know the difference.
A common phenomenon known as 'Night Hags' was responsible for the mythical succubi. Demonic women who came into your room at night, paralysed you and attempted to seduce you. In recent times these are sometimes also 'alien encounters.' But in actuality it is just a sleep disorder where you sort of regain consciousness while your body is asleep. Its the same kind of thing.
And strangely enough, that is not what I'm doing. I'm telling them that their belief is just that; a belief. It's not a fact, its not 'true' - its just a belief. Lots of people in this thread treat beliefs as if they are 'true.' That is what I rail against.Originally Posted by [b
Night, but you too.Originally Posted by [b
The main object of religion is to give a meaning to one’s life. Where do I come from ? Why do I live ? Where will I go ? Many people, and I am one of them, just can not live without at least trying to answer those questions.
Sciences tell me that I am a combination of cells, fine. But they will never tell me what I should or should not do with my life, they will never tell me why it is so that I have instincts or even sometimes rational thoughts, that I MUST not obey.
Let’s take a few of Albert Schweizer’s examples.
Having sex with every fertile female in her teens is both instinctive and rational.
Insulting those who don't think like you is instinctive.
Killing the old, who live off our work, who are both improductive and barren, is rational.
Creating a clone of oneself to use as a spare-part storing device is rational.
Eugenism is rational.
The genocide in Rwanda was rational for the Hutu leaders.
And so on.
It is obvious to me that religions help draw the line between good and evil, that one of their primary objectives is to try to make us live together.
Yes, murders have been, and are still, committed in their behalfs.
Yes, religion as a whole has stood, and sometimes still stands, in the way of sciences.
That is because none of us is perfect, because the inner violence, pride and selfishness contained somewhere in our cells is too often given destructive outlets. We can all fail. Most true pious –those that separate politics, sciences and religion with a CLEAR line- at least care and try.
People –mostly atheists- who watch religions and their believers often see them as a mere bunch of illuminated people. I am a Catholic, I can tell you I would be very worried about my mental health if I ever happened to see an angel by my nightstand. My FAITH does not require me to SEE anything. I am not looking for a PROOF that God exists. I just know that if everyone did love their neighbour, with their faults and their qualities, that is, for what they are, this world would be a way more pleasant place to live in.
Acecombat-Oh, youve never been to Scotland?Originally Posted by [b
Chistmas is so expensive, im surprised is hasnt been cancelled there (speaking as someone with a Scottish father, before i get called a racist or somesuch).
Baron Hurlothrumbo IIX- For a while when your tone was merely highly condescending (rather than abrasively dismissive to the point of offensiveness) i started to think (happily) that people were beginning to attack and feel threatened by your challenges of their ideas and persistent outlining of perhaps uncomfortable facts, rather than your (usually) crude and inneffective means of self expression. However, you soon succeeded in reestablishing your usual contemptuous style. A pity.
Il est interdit d\'interdire
Lets see if we can keep it civil,
Baron Hurlothrumbo IIX- It is precisely because religion and science cater to very different aspects of the human experience ***that, as you see it, no one can answer your question on what religion helps us 'find out' or 'prove'. You seem to be attempting to apply rigorous scientific methods to the heart of the religious experience. Yet how can you scientifically measure the level of meaning in a persons life given by their belief in a divine benefactor, much less what feelings of transcendent spirituality might mean to a persons understanding of their place in the universe.? You might at most be working on some model provided by Psychology (a rather incomplete 'science' at the best of times). In short its sheer folly. You regard as irrelevant or nonsense the very core of meaningful religious experience among the faithful because it exceeds what you judge to be the acceptable level of deviation from the scientifically supportable explanations and because of the inherently personal and so relatively untestable and unrepeatable nature of the experience.
Because religious belief is ultimately a personal experience, what a religion helps people find out is quite simply whatever people say it has helped them find out. E.g. that God will help them, that all things have a greater meaning and significance, that there is a life after death in which they will be judged, or the deepest truths of the self etc. This 'finding out' is not as far as i can see of a very scientific nature. It is a process of mental discovery as much as anything and is generally quite untestable. It is above all, personal, and so general laws and theories are not necessarily at all relevant. Whether you or i choose to believe in another persons perceptions and experiences is probably quite irrelevant to him or her (though i cant help wondering as a default atheist whether a bit of this is a subconscious fear on the part of the believer that their nice dreams will be revealed as just that.)
Almost all religious beliefs explaining natural phenomena have been comprehensively superseded by superior scientific explanations, still other religious beliefs relating to morals have been replaced by the modern laws of the state (though in many places old religious notions of right and wrong still hold), some beliefs though are more general and less specific (so as to be difficult to prove or disprove) and some deal with ideas that lie in their conception quite outside of scientific methodology, being unobservable, untestable, personal and specific. In my opinion, in most religions this type of belief (though perhaps less obvious than a belief about the eating of pigs for example) constitutes the essential leap of faith necessary to distinguish a true believer from a non believer.
Everyone responds to the world around them differently and some see or feel a desire for greater meaning beyond that provided by any secular explanation for the existence of the universe and the individual within it. This doesnt make them morons. No two people have the same experiences so why should we expect all to agree about the fundamental nature of experience and reality or the criteria by which believability should be judged? Some think it is preposterous that the universe might exist without a reason. Whilst the increasing complexity, sophistication and interconnectedness of scientific explanations are starting to infringe on the territory of the eternal 'why' it remains the case that beyond the humble stage within which we can observe and test scientifically there remains a great unknown or series of unknowns to which science is not now an answer. ***
You have said without caveat "religion does not make people feel better", not wishing to take a leaf from your book, that is like saying 'watching TV does not entertain people' . Self evidently this is not true. Is TV the best form of entertainment? That is debatable but it is indisputably one form. Similarly, true religious belief is a phenomena that can and does make people feel better. Religion is indeed predicated upon faith, it asks for time, sometimes money, or other greater sacrifices. From this we can deduce that people must feel they are getting something in return. What is gained varies from person to person of course but is frequently expressed in terms of pleasure and of feelings better than those experienced before they first embarked upon religious devotions. Perhaps you have not after all heard of religion being the opiate of the masses.
Personally, from my own observations i believe belief gives people an untouchable hope and inner source of happiness. I sometimes wish i could believe in an afterlife and a benevolent creator God watching over us, its a great idea. Unfortunately it seems rather unconvincing to me.
So you ask 'what is the usefulness of it (religion)' and i say WHATEVER YOU CAN MAKE OF IT. If nothing then so be it, but what you seem singularly incapable of understanding is that everyone has a different and unique criteria of belief and some can make use of religious beliefs positively in life. Certainly some people (most people in my experience) are just being foolish and unthoughtful but others have an intelligent and reasoned belief in something beyond what is apparent. As long as theses views do not cause them to negatively interfere with others then i do not begrudge them this small joy. If you and i are right Baron and this life is but a little glint of light between two great and endless shadows (my general if not absolute belief) then dont you think we might at least try to live happily? The breadth of human experience in great and if some can delude themselves into feeling that this life is only the beginning and that a God is watching over them, and if these same nice beliefs allow them to die with a smile on their face then (rather than compare them to children or idiots) i would say, good for them.
I dont believe or follow any religion but i certainly believe the human experience is bigger than science and what science (after all only a tool) can show us (a view which you have also professed to hold though i see little evidence of any toleration for human experience outside of the rational and deductive).
I would like someone to answer a very simple question.
If you knew someone who was convinced that they were being abducted by aliens every night, to have sex with beautiful alien females, and was quite happy about it, what would you do?*
Now, what if that person started telling others about this and charging them admittance to his house; where he said if they truly believed in aliens they would also get abducted.
What would you do then?
Now, what if that person was a teacher and started teaching your children (/siblings) that they could have sex with beautiful alien women if they gave him some money.
What would you do then?
*there is no evidence, at all, to support his claims, in this example.
Just answer the questions. Then we can talk about why and wherefors and you can claim that its not a fair comparison later.