Controls Scheme & User Interface Feedback

Even for direct control Z, X, C is not the ideal solution. Binding two toggle keys - one for prone and one for crouch - allows you to reach any stance from any other stance with a single key press.

I find this to be a good compromise, and personally I would not be comfortable using a single key to cycle through stances.

Using two keys is about as direct as you can get when changing stance, why the hell do you need an extra key only for stand when all you need is to hit the same key to get back up/down? All the older games use this same control untill god knows what popular game reinvent the wheel with that 3 keys control.

P.S. BTW BI sort of screw it up with TOH where you can no longer binding those keys to have the same control, shame, real shame.

I agree that using 3 keys s definitely overkill. You only need 2 max, IMO.

All the older games use this same control untill god knows what popular game reinvent the wheel with that 3 keys control.

Arma is actually the only game I have known to use this system. I don't play many other games though so they probably aren't the only ones to "reinvent the wheel".

Not a double tap, but X held down to go prone. Much like on a console game. When I used to play battlefield 3 on PS3, I found I could react just fine in situations I needed to move and get down quickly to avoid fire.

I just imagine that 1 second that you have to hold down X might cost you and will seem unnatural. Kind of like a delayed reaction where the avatar doesn't follow what you tell it to do exactly when you tell it to do so. But I haven't tried it, and you have so maybe I am wrong and it is responsive neough - I guess it really depends on how sensitive the key presses will be and just how long you have to hold. From ghost recon experience, I can say that I am definitely comfortable with double tapping to go prone however.

I'm interested in which things you disagree with in particular. I've edited my idea a couple of times already, once even overhauling everything when I've found something wrong. One thing I found wrong with my idea is that it actually doesn't utilize enough keys. Space, ctrl, z and c, I didn't bother coming up with functions for them. I considered splitting the command button into two different buttons, one for miscellaneous functions and behaviors, the other for commonly used commands for example.

Space might be used for jumping, and no not vaulting. I know your thinking Quake and COD, but you likely wouldn't be able to aim your weapon and it would fatigue you greatly.

Mostly just personal preference as to key location. Ie. I prefer space to q, caps lock to shift, C to X etc. As to actual mechanical problems, I think that your way of leaning would be too complex and for little to no benefit. The current q and e, while not as precise as the mouse, allow for quick in and out peeking which is the main reason I use leaning anyhow. Your solution of making WASD for leaning will only make arma's clunky movement more clunky as you will not be able to lean while moving. There is a place for slow precise leaning like you suggest, I do not deny that, but it shouldn't replace the current q and e system. If you can find a way to implement both then I wouldn't disagree.

Also, unless the stealth and detection system take full advantage of it, I don't think scrolling to control speed is worth it. I mean besides stealth, when would you need this? I can only see it causing problems with holding formation. Feel free to point out why this is not true but with the current state of the stealth in arma 2, I don't think this would be necessary.

What I do like about your suggestion is the way in which holding down keys has a different effect than tapping them. It does save room. scrolling to zoom is also a very interesting idea that I think I could probably really like. Only thing is there needs to be a quick way to revert to the default zoom, otherwise switching from long range spotting to CQB may be to slow.

As for jumping, don't worry, not everybody assumes that you are refering to COD/Qake style jump. Like you say, make it fatiguing, disallow aiming, difficult to repeat rapidly, and have realistic height and it will be fine. I think that when you are next to something that can be vaulted however you should automatically vault it when pressing the jump key. I also think that space is to precious a key to assign to something that isn't used quite so often. I would rather it be mapped to Z,X or C and reserve space for something more important.

A suggestion for your little list of changes would be to have weapon selection based on the number keys (when you have no ai selected of course - yes you will not be able to change weapons when commanding ai, but you can't do that currently anyhow...). 1 for primary, 2 for secondary, 3 for grenade type1, 4 for grenade type2 etc. Then to change fire mode or throwing style (undehand vs. overhand) you simply retap the number key of the weapon you are using. Ie. press 1 to pull out your rifle, press 1 again to switch to 3 round burst. Press 4 to pull out a smoke grenade, press 4 again to make your throw style underhand. grenade launchers would be considered a type of firemode. This would free up the f key to perform the same kind of function you currently suggest the holding the R key does. Hold down to bring up a list of interaction, or simply tap to do the first interaction onf the list (good for obvious things like getting in a vehicle or climbing up a ladder). Just a suggestion.

Edited January 22, 2013 by -Coulum-

PuFu pointed out that using the mouse to lean was a bit awkward and slow since you wouldn't be able to aim simultaneously while leaning, until you let go of the lean modifier that was. I then changed it so that wasd can be used. It's no different than q and e in this regard other than the fact that it gives more functionality (up and down) while taking up one less key. And I would imagine it wouldn't replace q and e, and that it would still be in control options somewhere. After all, why not?

Then again, I don't see why needing to move while leaned is absolutely necessary. I think at best it's a small sacrifice for a overall superior system, and actually less complex.

Currently you hold shift for temporary movement change and double tap for permanent movement change. You double tap w for sprint. Having to tap a key twice as opposed to briefly pressing it simply isn't as desirable. Ironically I'll also suggest that having to hold down shift to run is awkward, because you'd usually just be holding it down for a long time. I end up just mapping the "permanently modify movement" to "briefly press shift." There's a slight delay in having to double tap, and it's just simply annoying to have to do. My method is better because it adds at the least slightly better functionality. Briefly pressed shift toggles between tactical pace or sprint. The mouse wheel is then used for those more miscellaneous but still potentially useful infantry speeds. It might not be necessary, but it certainly is better than the current system. It adds at the least slightly better functionality and saved key space with no loss of functionality or ease of use. Perhaps it wouldn't be analog, but just scroll through all the different basic movement speeds (in response to what you said about keeping formation). Honestly though, formations are a dated military tactic, not really necessary or helpful in modern combat anymore. It's for organization and tidyness solely, not really for when you're in the heat of battle and taking cover and stuff. Also, if it were analog I wouldn't imagine that it would make keeping formation too difficult, perhaps just a little bit more work than before.

I just thought of something related to zoom. How about pressing the optics button by default zooms in as well? That's what most people end up doing anyways when they're using optics. So how about pressing the optics button also zooms in while you have the option of zooming out by holding alt and using mousewheel? Being totally honest, there's never been a time I've used optics where I haven't also zoomed in, and in fact I was just thinking today that I would map toggle zoom to the optics key if I played ArmA 2 today. Quick zoom simply isn't needed. It's kind of redundant when all your going to do is hold down the button 99% of the time.

A quick way to revert to zoom, yes good point. Perhaps pressing alt and right clicking could be used to revert zoom. Although, unless the zoom speed was slow I don't think such a command is absolutely necessary. If they're smart, they aren't going to get too comfortable with the default zoom/fov anyways amount because they should be constantly altering it based on their situation.

Regarding space, yeah perhaps it's not a command you would use often enough to assign it to a key all on it's own. On the contrary, if you ever did need jumping you would need it immediately so scrolling through a list of commands simply wouldn't do. It would also need to be in an easily accessible location. So while jumping might not be an often used or needed command, when you do need mobility you need it right then and there. Mobility related keys should always be accessible and easy to use, as they mean the difference between life and death in a shooter. I suppose it can always be remapped for those who disagree. Perhaps the suggested commands for x and stance modification should trade places? X is accessible enough, and stance modification is something being used constantly.

I'm sorry that I have to disagree on number keys. I hate number keys, or anything I have to browse my keyboard for. You should never have to take your eyes off the screen. I always find the number keys awkward to press too. For those that disagree, I think they should be given the option to remap their commands for that, but I think using the mouse wheel to scroll through weapons is simply the easier and faster method.

Perhaps leaning up and down would be the modifier for how you throw your grenade.

Edited January 22, 2013 by JCDBionicman

PuFu pointed out that using the mouse to lean was a bit awkward and slow since you wouldn't be able to aim simultaneously while leaning, until you let go of the lean modifier that was....

....I think at best it's a small sacrifice for a overall superior system, and actually less complex.

Okay I may be misinterpreting what you are saying. Using your idea, when you press "stance modifier key" + "a", will you get a quick lean similar to pressing q right now, or will it be more of an incremental thing where you will slowly lean out allowing for more precision and orientation. Also, what happens when you stop pressing the two keys. Will you return to default straight standing or will you remain leaning.

Leaning and moving is actually quite nice and makes it easier to adjust yourself for a shot. Ie. you may be at the corner of the building and try to lean out to shoot. When you do, you realize that you didn't position yourself near enough to the edge - so you simply strafe a bit while leaning until you are in the correct position. Having to stopping leaning, move over a bit and then try again would be tedious and would make CQB especially, very frustrating.

Currently you hold shift for temporary movement change and double tap for permanent movement change....

....Also, if it were analog I wouldn't imagine that it would make keeping formation too difficult, perhaps just a little bit more work than before.

Come to think of it double tapping for sprint is very annoying. But I think this is because during your double tap you temporarily stop moving. With a double tap to go prone, you will not notice this. Basically whether it is hold down for .1 second, or double tap the result will be the same. There will be the tiniest of delays. I guess I feel that double tap is more responsive because once you press that key for the second time you know that your guy is immediately going to prone. With holding down you are waiting for your guy to go prone. Either way the result is the same though. There will be a slight delay between when you want to perform the action and when it happens. We just have different personal preferences. Therefore I don't think it is worth debating. The real question is whether this delay, however slight will have a negative effect on control. Will people be able to live with it or do we need a second key to allow for immediate stance change? Based on your experience with holding down a single key and mine with double tapping I would say that no there isn't a need.

As for mouse scroll stuff. You seem to have your keys mapped out a bit different than mine. I toggle run with shift, and double tap w for sprints (same as you). I feel this is more than simple enough and pretty key efficient. Granted, double tapping w is awkward, as I mentioned above, because it temporarily stops movement. So maybe tapping shift toggles run, holding shilft and w makes you sprint. I think this would cover all my "speed" needs and therefore maintain that unless stealth really took advantage of the mousescrolling speeds, I see it as unneccesary. No need to complicate a simple and working system. that being said, i certainly wouldn't complain if it were in game. It would help with stamina management.

And formations are still very important in modern day combat. Yes, it doesn't need to be precise, and granted once the shit hits the fan formation doesn't matter much and everyone should simply be trying to use cover to it best potential, but before a contact, formation is very important for keeping situational awareness, being ready to quickly direct maximimum firepower on the enemy when they are seen, and decreasing casualties if the enemy gets the jump on you (don't want to be clumped up when a machine gun opens up on you).

I just thought of something related to zoom. How about pressing the optics button by default zooms in as well?....

....Being totally honest, there's never been a time I've used optics where I haven't also zoomed in, and in fact I was just thinking today that I would map toggle zoom to the optics key if I played ArmA 2 today.

Negative on the automatic zoom with optics. I know what you mean, I too zoom 95% of the time I am using sights, but many people want to be able to benefit from the extra fov and better "orientation awareness" while using optics without the zoom. For example I might want to have my sights up while surveying a large portion of land, and then only zoom in when I have spotted an enemy. CQB also requires less zoom. I know that some people already dislike how you zoom ever so slightly when using optics already.

Quick zoom simply isn't needed. It's kind of redundant when all your going to do is hold down the button 99% of the time.

agreed, what is needed IMO is the ability to "set" the level of zoom and have it remain there until you change it or revert it to default. I think scroll would be a perfect way of doing this.

A quick way to revert to zoom, yes good point. Perhaps pressing alt and right clicking could be used to revert zoom. Although, unless the zoom speed was slow I don't think such a command is absolutely necessary. If they're smart, they aren't going to get too comfortable with the default zoom/fov anyways amount because they should be constantly altering it based on their situation.

Something like that might work, although instead of right click it should be centre click (since zooming is already related to the scroll wheel it is more logical IMO). Alt may not be the best key since it is also linked to free look. It may be disorienting if you are reverting to default zoom while panning the mouse as you think you are turning your body but you are actually just turning your head. Not sure if it would be worth it to use another key to modify the middle mouseclick though.

Regarding space, yeah perhaps it's not a command you would use often enough to assign it to a key all on it's own....

....X is accessible enough, and stance modification is something being used constantly.

Agreed. for me personally Z,X,C would all be natural enough for me to want to use as a jump key. As you say, its a matter of personal preference though so there will not be any golden key that works for everyone.

I'm sorry that I have to disagree on number keys........Perhaps leaning up and down would be the modifier for how you throw your grenade.

Well I wasn't expecting that, but no prob. I find number keys to be pretty easy to "feel" out and I feel that the scroll menu isn't exactly intuitive, especially when there are other things to do other than change weapons. A radial menu might fix this, but otherwise, I prefer numbers. Oh well, to each his own.

And of course I am just speculating, the best thing bis can do is give us options to customize to our liking of course.

Edited January 22, 2013 by -Coulum-

It does. Z, X, C controls the main stances. Ctrl+W and Ctrl+S makes you pop up and down.

Then again, I'll add/say that according to InstaGoat, the Gamescom build's controls were the default Arma 2/OA keybinds but with Ctrl+WSADQE added, so considering that and that the Gamescom build was still using the Arma 2/OA-style communications menus whereas Ivan said months ago that it might be different in the community alpha, who even knows what the community alpha version will be like.

The Shadow knows... ;)

Oh, and if I were somehow confined to the "tap/hold" model (no room for double-tap? :p) then I'd definitely swap G -- tap for a quick-select/list-cycle, hold for the full menu.

I'll disagree with JCDBionicman and agree with -Coulum- -- intuitiveness is subjective; for some players some controls are more intuitive simply because they've been playing with BI's default keybinds for so long, others will rebind rather than be "stuck" with the defaults, and frankly I find the number row keys intuitive as far as weapon/gear selection. :p

P.S. -Coulum-, thanks for the great PM discussion on CQB!

I'll disagree with JCDBionicman and agree with -Coulum- -- intuitiveness is subjective; for some players some controls are more intuitive simply because they've been playing with BI's default keybinds for so long, others will rebind rather than be "stuck" with the defaults, and frankly I find the number row keys intuitive as far as weapon/gear selection. :p

I think some of JCDBionicman's suggestions have merit, albeit disregarding the suggested keys. As I understand it, he is mostly interested in being able to play the game with a gamepad anyway, so IMO his suggestions can really be simplified to the following:

1. Make any combination of gamepad buttons, keyboard keys and mouse buttons/movement (re-)bindable. (For example KEY + MOUSE LEFT/RIGHT, which is currently impossible.)

2. Ensure that all keys and buttons can be bound by single tap, double tap and hold. (Btw. make the "hold down" time configurable too.)

3. Add easily navigable menus to facilitate weapon interaction etc.

4. Provide one or more full-featured default gamepad layouts that make use of these enhanced bindings.

Does that cover it?

What I'm suggesting with leaning is that the wasd keys act just like q and e. Double tapping one of the wasd keys would also similarly toggle lean, so then upon letting go of the lean modifier you can move while leaning.

Regarding double tap, you're right there's a delay either way, but briefly holding down a key takes just a little bit less effort than double tapping it.

Similarly, briefly pressing a key to activate a command is also easier than having to hold it throughout the duration of the command's use.

Briefly pressing shift to toggle between probably the two most important and commonly used (I would imagine) commands of tactical pace and sprint is simply easier and more practical

We agree jog and slow walk are simply not movements that are used often enough, as you indicated that slower movement would only really be useful for stealth.

Simultaneously, while stealth might be a somewhat miscellaneous tactic it does have a place.

Like all the macros, pressing the button briefly activates the most useful function while holding it down allows you to access the more miscellaneous functions.

The same is such for the movement modifier.

An onscreen indicator would probably be necessary for analog movement to let you know just how fast you're going, as with an analog stick you can constantly sense the context of your given input whereas with a keyboard and mouse wheel you can't.

But what happens when you want to get to tactical pace or sprint quickly and your currently in between both or at the slowest walk? If you're jogging, pressing shift would bring you to tactical pace because naturally pressing shift goes to the opposite movement type.

For those that find analog movement awkward even with a smooth scroll, it can be changed to simply digital inputs. Also, it should be slow walk (half the speed of walk for the purpose of sneaking) normal walk, tactical pace, jog and sprint. Speed shouldn't be an issue here either, ideally one should be able to easily flick the mouse wheel all the down quickly to get to "sneak" and if necessary all the way up for sprint.

Also, this would be very nice thrust modifier for piloting. More realistic as well as easier.

You agree that the majority of the time you just end up, like me and everyone else, just holding down the button to quick zoom anyways. I've played CQB myself and I don't believe it would affect my peripherals enough to become an issue. Even in CQB i find zooming still helpful. If I need peripheral vision I just disengage the optics, what's the big deal? Either way I guess it doesn't affect me if they keep it the way it is, because I can still just make it how I like.

Agree about middle mouse click. Also, in the same sense that it's sometimes necessary to need to move while leaned to make small adjustments, perhaps also it's necessary to be able to aim while zooming in. Perhaps mouse wheel should by default zoom in and out without needing to press another key. Then again, that you can't aim while adjusting zoom would be realistic at least in the case of using long range scopes.

Out of zxc, x is the easiest to press and even that requires you to take a finger off of d. This is not ideal when your trying to make quick precise movements and might need to press d in conjunction with jump. What input might be better put to use on space? The map for example easily suits c or z. Also, part of my reason for suggesting jump was actually to replace and improve upon vaulting. While vaulting might look fancier, it's too slow. Vaulting should be regulated to the action menu, as a miscellaneous command. True that something will never please everybody, but control presets can be designed in such a way that it pleases most.

And the reason I disagree about the number keys is because they're hard to reach, and awkward to press. I can see how pressing them instead of scrolling through a menu might seem faster, but even in half life and other multi-weapon games I found it to be of little issue. In ArmA it's even less an issue, seeing as you can only carry a sidearm, rifle and heavy weapon, usually just the former two. And what did you think of using lean as a modifier for grenade throwing?

---------- Post added at 10:07 ---------- Previous post was at 10:05 ----------

I think some of JCDBionicman's suggestions have merit, albeit disregarding the suggested keys. As I understand it, he is mostly interested in being able to play the game with a gamepad anyway, so IMO his suggestions can really be simplified to the following:

1. Make any combination of gamepad buttons, keyboard keys and mouse buttons/movement (re-)bindable. (For example KEY + MOUSE LEFT/RIGHT, which is currently impossible.)

2. Ensure that all keys and buttons can be bound by single tap, double tap and hold. (Btw. make the "hold down" time configurable too.)

3. Add easily navigable menus to facilitate weapon interaction etc.

4. Provide one or more full-featured default gamepad layouts that make use of these enhanced bindings.

Does that cover it?

Eh, yeah pretty much.

I then changed it so that wasd can be used. It's no different than q and e in this regard other than the fact that it gives more functionality (up and down) while taking up one less key.

I told you before, most don't really care about saving keys/

And I would imagine it wouldn't replace q and e, and that it would still be in control options somewhere. After all, why not? Then again, I don't see why needing to move while leaned is absolutely necessary. I think at best it's a small sacrifice for a overall superior system, and actually less complex.

I do disagree, it is indeed quite mandatory to be able to move while lean.

And regarding your MOH comparison: MOH used a key modifier and mouse because they were restricted by the number of buttons and possible combinations on the controller (being a multiplatform game with a focus on consoles).

Currently you hold shift for temporary movement change and double tap for permanent movement change. You double tap w for sprint. Having to tap a key twice as opposed to briefly pressing it simply isn't as desirable. Ironically I'll also suggest that having to hold down shift to run is awkward, because you'd usually just be holding it down for a long time. I end up just mapping the "permanently modify movement" to "briefly press shift." There's a slight delay in having to double tap, and it's just simply annoying to have to do.

Best default way would be: capslock toggles between walk and run. Shift hold for sprint.

I just thought of something related to zoom. How about pressing the optics button by default zooms in as well? That's what most people end up doing anyways when they're using optics. So how about pressing the optics button also zooms in while you have the option of zooming out by holding alt and using mousewheel? Being totally honest, there's never been a time I've used optics where I haven't also zoomed in, and in fact I was just thinking today that I would map toggle zoom to the optics key if I played ArmA 2 today. Quick zoom simply isn't needed. It's kind of redundant when all your going to do is hold down the button 99% of the time.

Just because you do it, doesn't mean everyone else is. Zooming when using a non-zooming scope would break more than fix.

If you ask me, the zoom is a legacy behaviour from OFP times (2001), when long range combat was not really possible on the average monitor resolution was 1024x768 or at best 1280x800, and AA was a thing that wasn't working all that well.

I would rather have no zoom in 2013, when average screen resolution is 1920x1080 (or at least 1680x1050).

But that is NOT related to controls scheme anyways.

I'm sorry that I have to disagree on number keys. I hate number keys, or anything I have to browse my keyboard for. You should never have to take your eyes off the screen. I always find the number keys awkward to press too. For those that disagree, I think they should be given the option to remap their commands for that, but I think using the mouse wheel to scroll through weapons is simply the easier and faster method.

Perhaps leaning up and down would be the modifier for how you throw your grenade.

Again, you hate number keys because you are not used to a keyboard (i guess), but most of the FPS games out there are accoustom to using number keys for weapon selection. I don't see why A3 should be any different. I said it before, the commands could easily be moved on the numpad

I think some of JCDBionicman's suggestions have merit, albeit disregarding the suggested keys. As I understand it, he is mostly interested in being able to play the game with a gamepad anyway, so IMO his suggestions can really be simplified to the following:

1. Make any combination of gamepad buttons, keyboard keys and mouse buttons/movement (re-)bindable. (For example KEY + MOUSE LEFT/RIGHT, which is currently impossible.)

2. Ensure that all keys and buttons can be bound by single tap, double tap and hold. (Btw. make the "hold down" time configurable too.)

3. Add easily navigable menus to facilitate weapon interaction etc.

4. Provide one or more full-featured default gamepad layouts that make use of these enhanced bindings.

Does that cover it?

It should yes. I would add to point 3. that weapon and gear selection should be separated from firemode selector (which could also be used for grenade type of throw).

The default keyboard layout should resemble with most other FPS games out there (with the exception of Q and E being kept for lean purposes - especially since nowadays most FPS (most of which being multiplatform) dumped lean due to controller constrains:

WASD - movement + QE

CAPS - toggle run/walk

SHIFT - sprint

ALT - freelook (i always change it to thumb mouse button 4)

C - crouch

SPACE - jump/ stand

F - firemode

R - reload

X - prone

G - gear

1-0 - weapons and gear

and so on.

The default keyboard layout should resemble with most other FPS games out there (with the exception of Q and E being kept for lean purposes - especially since nowadays most FPS (most of which being multiplatform) dumped lean due to controller constrains:

WASD - movement + QE

CAPS - toggle run/walk

SHIFT - sprint

ALT - freelook (i always change it to thumb mouse button 4)

C - crouch

SPACE - jump/ stand

F - firemode

R - reload

X - prone

G - gear

1-0 - weapons and gear

and so on.

Perfect.

But then comes the commanding keys.

F1-10 to select units, 1-0 to navigate through the menus (only when there are units selected) and a more simple menu to issue most common orders. ?

Briefly pressing shift to toggle between probably the two most important and commonly used (I would imagine) commands of tactical pace and sprint is simply easier and more practical

We agree jog and slow walk are simply not movements that are used often enough, as you indicated that slower movement would only really be useful for stealth.

Simultaneously, while stealth might be a somewhat miscellaneous tactic it does have a place.

Not true. I believe sprint is a speed of it's own. You should most likely toggle between walk and jog, sprint beeing by definition (and behaviour in arma and in other games) a limited timed action. While in A2 you can sprint indefinitely, after the first 20-30s, the speed for sprint is actually lower than the jog's speed.

You agree that the majority of the time you just end up, like me and everyone else, just holding down the button to quick zoom anyways. I've played CQB myself and I don't believe it would affect my peripherals enough to become an issue. Even in CQB i find zooming still helpful. If I need peripheral vision I just disengage the optics, what's the big deal? Either way I guess it doesn't affect me if they keep it the way it is, because I can still just make it how I like.

Not really the FOV you need for CQB, is it? I ended up setting zoom out (double tap minus) on my 5th thumb button for such occasions.

Out of zxc, x is the easiest to press and even that requires you to take a finger off of d.

LOL. Out of ZXC, C is the easiest to press. You don't need to take your pointer off the d key, you can use your left hand thumb for any of the said keys.

While vaulting might look fancier, it's too slow. Vaulting should be regulated to the action menu, as a miscellaneous command. True that something will never please everybody, but control presets can be designed in such a way that it pleases most.

There should be a preset for keyboard (or in fact 2, for lefties and righties), and one for controller. evrything else should be customizable. read by previous reply.

And the reason I disagree about the number keys is because they're hard to reach, and awkward to press.

You really can't be serious. The number are right above movement keys, i fail to see how that is harder than using some fancy combo. But each with its own set of skills i guess.

I can see how pressing them instead of scrolling through a menu might seem faster, but even in half life and other multi-weapon games I found it to be of little issue. In ArmA it's even less an issue, seeing as you can only carry a sidearm, rifle and heavy weapon, usually just the former two.

You have pistol + rifle + launcher + grenades + satchels + binoculars + other gadgets. Should fit from 1 to 0 in that particular order.

And what did you think of using lean as a modifier for grenade throwing?

Disastrous ;)

---------- Post added at 15:25 ---------- Previous post was at 15:23 ----------

Perfect.

But then comes the commanding keys.

F1-10 to select units, 1-0 to navigate through the menus (only when there are units selected) and a more simple menu to issue most common orders. ?

That should be possible i guess

Edited January 22, 2013 by PuFu

@PuFu

You're on a thread with people discussing ideas for control schemes with the expressed purpose of saving useful keys for more useful inputs and combining commands onto same keys where necessary for that purpose.

As said, having to hold a key for the duration of a commands use is not desirable next to having to just press it once. What you're suggesting for movement speed provides less functionality, while wasting the use of an additional key.

You have two people that just admitted they end up just redundantly holding the right clicker after pressing it, 90% of the time, and with some common sense it becomes apparent most people including yourself end up doing this (perhaps you don't want to admit it). For the 10% of the time that one needs extra peripheral while aiming they can zoom out using the mouse wheel. It makes no sense to make zoom not the default when 90% of the time people don't need to zoom out but in. My resolution is 1680x1050, and I always find it necessary to zoom with optics, and even in CQB it helps aim. If its super CQB then you don't need to zoom or use optics in the first place. Even CQB in ArmA is pretty long range compared to other games, and zooming is not unnecessary.

I'm not new to PC games, I've been playing for years. Out of all the horrible configurations I've encountered, the ones where browsing your f or number keys is mandatory have been the worst for me. Having to take your eyes off the screen and your hand off of movement and/or aiming is factually undesirable if we're talking about the player's ability to perform at his fastest and most tactical in a first person shooter. And your wrong that most FPS games use number keys over the mouse wheel. If they use number keys at all, it's in addition to a more reliable method such as mouse wheel. Moving them to the num pad might help a bit, but It's still undesirable as it runs into the same problems.

I don't understand why you prefer q and e over pressing 'lean modifier' + 'wasd'. What I'm suggesting provides more functionality while accomplishing the same thing. You can double tap a movement key so that you can lean while moving.

Also, stance modification doesn't require more than on key. Hold to toggle prone, and press to toggle crouch works just fine.

Yes, sprint is a speed of it's own, and also the most immediately needed and useful movement speed in any given situation. What your referring to is not sprint becoming slower than jog, but actually your character becoming so fatigued that his sprint becomes the same speed as jog, in which case the jog command would provide slower movement than sprint. If you're currently at tactical pace or sprint, just a quick flick of the mouse wheel down or up while holding shift and you have jog. Jog is a pretty miscellaneous movement speed. If you want to get somewhere fast you might as well go as fast as you can, and then as you approach you can walk or move at tactical pace to get your stamina back up and be prepared for engagement. So overall jog is pretty useless right now, and unless they made sprint consume exponentially more stamina than jog like in real life it will remain as such.

I just tried to press zxc with my thumb. The way you have to lean your hand and twist your thumb to avoid pressing space is just not comfortable or natural. X is the easiest to press because as your pointer finger on d goes back it does so naturally. To press c with your pointer requires you to lean your hand slightly, which isn't too bad. Z needs to be pressed with your ring finger and I find it pulls my wrist if I force my other fingers to remain on the wasd.

Tell you what, place your fingers on wasd and try to press each number key up to 4 and describe to me what it requires you to do, how long it takes you to do it, and whether it feels as comfortable or natural as scrolling the mouse wheel.

An underslung weapon is a secondary function of a selectable weapon, so it would be accessed through F. As for the gadgets, you would access those by holding G and then using mouse wheel.

Disastrous? When you want to throw something high in real life typically you arch up, and when you want to roll it across the floor you arch down. Pretty simple. In the future, refrain from vague one word responses like these. In a discussion you have to come up with reasons to support your ideas.

Again, you hate number keys because you are not used to a keyboard (i guess), but most of the FPS games out there are accoustom to using number keys for weapon selection. I don't see why A3 should be any different. I said it before, the commands could easily be moved on the numpad

I should add that the number key row is used for other shooters on PC because keyboards are not limited to toggling between two weapons on one button (Triangle on PS3, Y on XB360) that would be 1 and 2 on the number key row and the D-Pad for items that would be numbers 3, 4, 5, 6 on the number key row... it's almost the same number of possible command inputs.

The default keyboard layout should resemble with most other FPS games out there

Hide this lest IceMan77 see this! :lol: Sorry, I really don't respect the complaints about the long-timers about "COD kiddies"... Arma 3's development path in 2012 was pretty publicly about taking in lessons from the expanded feedback from "the mainstream", no matter how much certain posters loathe the idea of "the mainstream".

Not true. I believe sprint is a speed of it's own. You should most likely toggle between walk and jog, sprint beeing by definition (and behaviour in arma and in other games) a limited timed action. While in A2 you can sprint indefinitely, after the first 20-30s, the speed for sprint is actually lower than the jog's speed.

From my own personal viewing of first-person COD and BF footage, at least based on the speed of the "body in motion" animation I'd actually say that Arma's jog is what other games call sprint and both serve the same function: move faster in return for not being able to fire... what Arma does differently is allow walking without aiming down the sight (ADS) -- not that I mind other games linking the two -- and adding an exclusive sprint, which besides giving a "shorter, faster, also can't fire" movement option accounts for the larger maps that are possible in Arma.

If I recall correctly InstaGoat's reporting on the Gamescom 2012 build and based on Gamescom 2012 footage that build used Arma 2/OA keys with the exceptions of Ctrl becoming the stance modifier key for the added positions (depending on current stance) and the GC build's settings (or at least the ones that Jay* and Ivan used) had Left Shift tied to tactical pace, though there's a key to toggle between tactical pace and walk... however, according to Smookie, ADS does force walk speed.

If you're perfectly willing to not use walk unless also using optics and if the Arma 2/OA key option to double-tap Shift (to switch between jog and tactical pace/walk) remains... then you can come up with something just like "most other FPS games out there", just with the addition of double-tapping W for Arma sprinting! :lol:

As far as default keys... my left thumb tends towards X, C or the spacebar -- in the event of Z, my instinct will probably be the ring finger, with my left pinkie continually over the Left Shift key, and my index/middle/ring fingers defaulting to A, W, and D.

* Remember, Jay plays Arma with floating aim off -- that doesn't prevent anyone else from playing with floating aim enabled, but that's why you won't see floating aim at presentations. ;-)

Although I'm loathe to comment about control settings before actually providing the opportunity for people to try them (debating about it in theory rarely works; you really have to get the fingers-on-the-keys in action, as it were), I would make a quick point.

I'm not sure if I've mentioned it previously, but we're aiming to introduce a set of Controls Presets - i.e. a feature that allows you to pick between pre-defined control assignments - so that we might offer some alternatives to the default set up, rather than "one-setup-to-rule-them-all" approach. While the idea isn't exactly revolutionary, it should enable us to be more flexible (e.g., supporting the 'classic' Arma 2 set up, while offering some choices/ moving toward 'industry standards' that other players may be comfortable with*).

Longer-term, though, it's cool to be able to think about more advanced functionality, such as, say, support for community-defined presets, which may be bundled with/ tailored to specific mods or game modes, etc, enabling quick switches and updates. While it's as yet WIP, generally, Presets fit in with our vision of Arma 3 as a flexible platform for official and community content; naturally, the approach has some disadvantages, but we feel they may be outweighed by the positives.

Best,

RiE

* For example, I'm personally trialling a set up with Go Prone/ Stand on Z, and Crouch-toggle on X (i.e., discarding the 3-key solution in favour of a more 'Flashpointy' solution - but, please, no one tell a certain Tasmanian CEO about it). This 'frees up' C, which I've currently assigned to Combat Pace (AKA Tactical Paceâ„¢). For me, sprint is assigned to shift. Spacebar executes context-sensitive actions, such as entering a vehicle as driver (which is probably the most 'controversial' choice of this personal set up). Other developers have different preferences and, at this point, I think it's still useful to keep an open mind.

Edited January 23, 2013 by RoyaltyinExile

It'd be really really great to know just what a developer thought of my idea for controls. I'm perfectly fine with multiple presets being designed with multiple different player types in mind as well, just, it'd be nice if I was put in mind as well.

---------- Post added at 02:12 ---------- Previous post was at 02:07 ----------

I should add that the number key row is used for other shooters on PC because keyboards are not limited to toggling between two weapons on one button (Triangle on PS3, Y on XB360) that would be 1 and 2 on the number key row and the D-Pad for items that would be numbers 3, 4, 5, 6 on the number key row... it's almost the same number of possible command inputs. Sorry, I really don't respect the complaints about the long-timers about "COD kiddies"... Arma 3's development path in 2012 was pretty publicly about taking in lessons from the expanded feedback from "the mainstream", no matter how much certain posters loathe the idea of "the mainstream"

Exactly. There's nothing wrong with taking pointers from the industry so long as they are doing so with the best interests of everybody in mind.

@PuFu

You're on a thread with people discussing ideas for control schemes with the expressed purpose of saving useful keys for more useful inputs and combining commands onto same keys where necessary for that purpose.

I am well aware of that, as well as the fact you have been beating the same horse over a few threads already.

As said, having to hold a key for the duration of a commands use is not desirable next to having to just press it once. What you're suggesting for movement speed provides less functionality, while wasting the use of an additional key.

Might be true, one could have shift toggle sprint. Then again, you need to remember that sprinting is a 20-30s action.

You have two people that just admitted they end up just redundantly holding the right clicker after pressing it, 90% of the time, and with some common sense it becomes apparent most people including yourself end up doing this (perhaps you don't want to admit it).

I envy your deduction skills!

No, i just don't do it. Matter of fact i used some of kju's old addons that removes zoom in non-zoom scopes and ironsights altogether. So please don't tell me what i do and don't.

For the 10% of the time that one needs extra peripheral while aiming they can zoom out using the mouse wheel. It makes no sense to make zoom not the default when 90% of the time people don't need to zoom out but in.

Again, that 90% is a gross exageration.

My resolution is 1680x1050, and I always find it necessary to zoom with optics, and even in CQB it helps aim. If its super CQB then you don't need to zoom or use optics in the first place. Even CQB in ArmA is pretty long range compared to other games, and zooming is not unnecessary.

The above points out that

1. You haven't been playing the game for that long

2. CQB stands for Close Quarters Battle, and believe me, you can get pretty close to 5-30m engagements in arma just as well.

3. A majority of players don't play with crosshairs, which means hip shooting is not an option unless you are pretty close and you panic/don't have time for sights up

4. Why don't you zoom your ironsights in other consoles games out there? If you ask me, if you need to zoom in arma, you have either a low res monitor, or you have the wrong tool for the job. Moreso, i do believe engagements will take longer @300-400m with non-zoomable ironsights

talking about zooming factor, i would say that if for a 2560 by 1600/1440 resolution monitor would have no such thing as zoom, it should be incremental down the range all the way up to 1.5x on a 1280x800 resolution.

I'm not new to PC games, I've been playing for years. Out of all the horrible configurations I've encountered, the ones where browsing your f or number keys is mandatory have been the worst for me. Having to take your eyes off the screen and your hand off of movement and/or aiming is factually undesirable if we're talking about the player's ability to perform at his fastest and most tactical in a first person shooter.

You don't really sound like a guy who has been playing FPS on PC for the last 20 years or so. You don't need to take eyes of monitor, just like you can switch guns pretty fast with middle finger still on the W key.

Again it is a matter of preferance.

And your wrong that most FPS games use number keys over the mouse wheel. If they use number keys at all, it's in addition to a more reliable method such as mouse wheel. Moving them to the num pad might help a bit, but It's still undesirable as it runs into the same problems.

I didn't say that. In fact most FPS use number keys as well as mouse wheel for weapon selection. I said it would be faster to selected directly the desired one without scrolling through a list (just like you currently are in A2, including firemodes) via a single key.

Again, a matter of preference.

I don't understand why you prefer q and e over pressing 'lean modifier' + 'wasd'. What I'm suggesting provides more functionality while accomplishing the same thing. You can double tap a movement key so that you can lean while moving.

You can't accomplish the same thing. You cannot quick lean and fast strafe. You are either locked in lean mode or not moving. Especially knowing what you are accomplishing by it, which is saving up Q and E keys

I guess it is just the same for me: i really can't understand someone who has played a few tens of FPS and shooters to want combos over keys. Don't get me wrong, i use combos daily (ctrl+alt+shift+v has to be my favourite InDesign paste in place combo). I even create my own set of custom keys for max, without which i cannot work properly.

Also, stance modification doesn't require more than on key. Hold to toggle prone, and press to toggle crouch works just fine.

That is something i might agree with you on, during your personal race towards keys freedom.

What your referring to is not sprint becoming slower than jog, but actually your character becoming so fatigued that his sprint becomes the same speed as jog, in which case the jog command would provide slower movement than sprint. If you're currently at tactical pace or sprint

No, i am actually saying that in vanilla A2/OA, after being fatigue, the actual speed of sprint is 3-4kms slower than the jog. You don't believe me, test it yourself in the editor. all you need is a script that shows in real time the speed of your character. I can send you a test mission if you can't do it yourself.

just a quick flick of the mouse wheel down or up while holding shift and you have jog. Jog is a pretty miscellaneous movement speed. If you want to get somewhere fast you might as well go as fast as you can, and then as you approach you can walk or move at tactical pace to get your stamina back up and be prepared for engagement.

I am sorry, i was under the impression you had weapons switching on the mouse wheel, not the speed.

So overall jog is pretty useless right now, and unless they made sprint consume exponentially more stamina than jog like in real life it will remain as such.

No it isn't, as explained before. While you can sprint indefinately in vanilla Arma, it has a certain drawback. Moreso, A3 is suppose to have some sort of stamina/fatigue/encumberance system, which A2 doesn't.

dI just tried to press zxc with my thumb. The way you have to lean your hand and twist your thumb to avoid pressing space is just not comfortable or natural. X is the easiest to press because as your pointer finger on d goes back it does so naturally. To press c with your pointer requires you to lean your hand slightly, which isn't too bad. Z needs to be pressed with your ring finger and I find it pulls my wrist if I force my other fingers to remain on the wasd.

It should be more than obvious at this moment in time, especially if you wouldn't be using those deduction skills of yours, that what comes natural for you is not really the same for me. Moreso, you cannot take yourself, and your lack of keyboard dexterity as THE NORM. I would say quite the contrary. Don't take this the wrong way though, i am pretty sure there are others who haven't been using keyboards since the 80's or beginning of 90's, and might be using one on a daily basis (for work or entertainment). Good thing you have pointed it out though, i would have never though this possibility of being a chore.

Tell you what, place your fingers on wasd and try to press each number key up to 4 and describe to me what it requires you to do, how long it takes you to do it, and whether it feels as comfortable or natural as scrolling the mouse wheel.

with fingers on wad, i use my A key ring finger for 1 and 2, while keeping middle and pointer on WD. For 3 and 4, i keep ring and middle on AW, and use pointer for 3 and 4. Got to admit that 5 is a bit of a stretch but nevertheless possible for someone with an average hand size.

An underslung weapon is a secondary function of a selectable weapon, so it would be accessed through F. As for the gadgets, you would access those by holding G and then using mouse wheel.

what about grenades. and what you mean by "gadgets"?

if 1 is sidearm and 2 is rifle, pressing 2 again would switch to underslug (if available). Pressing F would change from single to burst to auto and (if available, safe).

Disastrous? When you want to throw something high in real life typically you arch up, and when you want to roll it across the floor you arch down. Pretty simple. In the future, refrain from vague one word responses like these. In a discussion you have to come up with reasons to support your ideas.

I'd love to see you throw a rock, or a snow ball for that matter ^^. more combos and modifiers...

I wonder, if the keyboard layout you envisioned would be possible to setup, with all the twisted combos your heart desires, even if not available by default, maybe not even as a preset, but 100% possible. Tell me, would you play this game with a keyboard and mouse, or would you rather switch to your xbox controller? Honestly.

I'm not sure if I've mentioned it previously, but we're aiming to introduce a set of Controls Presets - i.e. a feature that allows you to pick between pre-defined control assignments - so that we might offer some alternatives to the default set up, rather than "one-setup-to-rule-them-all" approach. While the idea isn't exactly revolutionary, it should enable us to be more flexible (e.g., supporting the 'classic' Arma 2 set up, while offering some choices/ moving toward 'industry standards' that other players may be comfortable with*).

Longer-term, though, it's cool to be able to think about more advanced functionality, such as, say, support for community-defined presets, which may be bundled with/ tailored to specific mods or game modes, etc, enabling quick switches and updates. While it's as yet WIP, generally, Presets fit in with our vision of Arma 3 as a flexible platform for official and community content; naturally, the approach has some disadvantages, but we feel they may be outweighed by the positives.

What would those disadvantages be? Because i can only see advantages, especially if naming of the keybinds are properly done this time around, and as long as making your very own set of binds to feel your need is still possible (i see no reason not to).

Could you comment of the ability for the game to read hold key versus tap, as well as being able to setup key+ mouse movement (or more down to earth mouse scroll and clicks?)

* For example, I'm personally trialling a set up with Go Prone/ Stand on Z, and Crouch-toggle on X (i.e., discarding the 3-key solution in favour of a more 'Flashpointy' solution - but, please, no one tell a certain Tasmanian CEO about it). This 'frees up' C, which I've currently assigned to Combat Pace (AKA Tactical Paceâ„¢). For me, sprint is assigned to shift. Spacebar executes context-sensitive actions, such as entering a vehicle as driver (which is probably the most 'controversial' choice of this personal set up). Other developers have different preferences and, at this point, I think it's still useful to keep an open mind.

cheers for popping up/in/out in this thread ;)

Although I'm loathe to comment about control settings before actually providing the opportunity for people to try them (debating about it in theory rarely works; you really have to get the fingers-on-the-keys in action, as it were), I would make a quick point.

I'm not sure if I've mentioned it previously, but we're aiming to introduce a set of Controls Presets - i.e. a feature that allows you to pick between pre-defined control assignments - so that we might offer some alternatives to the default set up, rather than "one-setup-to-rule-them-all" approach. While the idea isn't exactly revolutionary, it should enable us to be more flexible (e.g., supporting the 'classic' Arma 2 set up, while offering some choices/ moving toward 'industry standards' that other players may be comfortable with*).

Longer-term, though, it's cool to be able to think about more advanced functionality, such as, say, support for community-defined presets, which may be bundled with/ tailored to specific mods or game modes, etc, enabling quick switches and updates. While it's as yet WIP, generally, Presets fit in with our vision of Arma 3 as a flexible platform for official and community content; naturally, the approach has some disadvantages, but we feel they may be outweighed by the positives.

Best,

RiE

* For example, I'm personally trialling a set up with Go Prone/ Stand on Z, and Crouch-toggle on X (i.e., discarding the 3-key solution in favour of a more 'Flashpointy' solution - but, please, no one tell a certain Tasmanian CEO about it). This 'frees up' C, which I've currently assigned to Combat Pace (AKA Tactical Paceâ„¢). For me, sprint is assigned to shift. Spacebar executes context-sensitive actions, such as entering a vehicle as driver (which is probably the most 'controversial' choice of this personal set up). Other developers have different preferences and, at this point, I think it's still useful to keep an open mind.

A very interesting setup you have there. But how does this work if you are crouched and then you press Z? Do you go prone? Do you have to hit the key again to stand up? And wich key do you use to walk at a normal pace (currently shift)?

A very interesting setup you have there. But how does this work if you are crouched and then you press Z? Do you go prone? Do you have to hit the key again to stand up?

The two-key-toggle setup generally works like this:

- While standing, pressing the prone key makes you go prone and pressing the crouch key makes you crouch (obviousy).

- While crouching, pressing the prone key makes you go prone and pressing the crouch key makes you stand up.

- While prone, pressing the prone key makes you stand up and pressing the crouch key makes you move up to crouch.

Personally, I have crouch-toggle on Ctrl and prone-toggle on X. Have been using that in games for years.

What would those disadvantages be? Because I can only see advantages, especially if naming of the keybinds are properly done this time around

The problems I'm thinking about are both high-level and technical.

An example of a high-level issue would be, say, if there is a whole bunch of different pre-sets, it can become confusing for people talking about their controls, say, in MP

But, yes, that's really just only about nit-picking for problems or, rather, predicting the worse, so we might better adapt to it.

From the technical point of view, there are still some fixes to the code needed to implement it corrextly. Fixes mean time, and time means effort not spent on, say, another feature which also requires attention (and there's always something else to fix). So, it's about finding a useful, appropriate balance of where we allocate resources.

A very interesting setup you have there. But how does this work if you are crouched and then you press Z? Do you go prone? Do you have to hit the key again to stand up? And wich key do you use to walk at a normal pace (currently shift)?

Pressing Z splats me into prone, and, if I'm prone already, takes me into stand. Again, I'd emphasise this is my personal preference, atm.

Best,

RiE

Edited January 23, 2013 by RoyaltyinExile

Personal preference or not, it´s still interesting and it seems very usefull :)

I might start using this but what should I assign to the new free key :confused:

Personal preference or not, it´s still interesting and it seems very usefull :)

I might start using this but what should I assign to the new free key :confused:

Whatever you want, hold breath, pace switch, move the laser/light/compass/watch to a more accessible key.

Binding freelook to Mouse 4, for example, has been liberating for my ALT key which is now used for ACE menu, etc.

... But, yes, that's really just only about nit-picking for problems or, rather, predicting the worse, so we might better adapt to it...

First of all, I'm glad to hear presets are things that you plan to include. Hopefully you guys are considering to include an option to save your own preset that wouldn't need to be attached to an addon file, but rather maybe be a file in a specific folder in your ArmA user directory.

I really don't see a reason to worry about the situation you described above, considering people have been coping with rebinding things to whatever suits them.

I'd be more worried about giving the key binding screen a first class treatment. Like giving controls reasonable labels (car more right anyone?) and expanding it to cover the entire screen so you can see more controls and context without the need to scroll a small listbox and encountering the intimidatingly tiny scroll bar.

I'd be more worried about giving the key binding screen a first class treatment.

Sure, that's part of our general attempt to overhaul the wGUI, and our hope to display information in less clunky ways. Not sure what exactly classes as 'first class' treatment, though. ;) Again, it's less about us reinventing the wheel, and more about trying to create a more sensible baseline by addressing legacy 'problems'*.

There are some simple fixes planned/in progress (such as making the name/ description of controls more semantic), some structural fixes (such as grouping controls into smaller, more logical sub-categories; e.g. 'infantry movement', 'vehicle controls', 'weapons', etc.), and some other things like adding tool-tips on hover, etc. Actually, that last one ran into some unexpected roadblock, so it seems unlikely to make it into our next build.

Best,

RiE

* The problem being, in my view, that even if the original system of displaying controls was fit-for-purpose, by - over the years - adding more and more features/ complexity to the game, whilst not thinking carefully about the effect of such features from all perspectives (e.g., 'will it need another control', 'don't you think this list is getting a bit long now?', 'ah, let's just stuff it on this key over here', etc), we dig our own 'usability grave' a litter deeper each time. :)

Edited January 23, 2013 by RoyaltyinExile

What would "weapons" entail in that hypothetical subcategory?

Sub-categories: Weapons. Hmm.... What could fall into this to worth its own categorie å (my question mark went kaputt. actually the whole keyboard went nuts) EDIT> Ha, ninj`d.

Anyway, nice to see a more open-minded, "gamey" approach on some subjects where the franchise was needing it.

Sure, that's part of our general attempt to overhaul the wGUI, and our hope to display information in less clunky ways. Not sure what exactly classes as 'first class' treatment, though. ;) Again, it's less about us reinventing the wheel, and more about trying to create a more sensible baseline by addressing legacy 'problems'*.

There are some simple fixes planned/in progress (such as making the name/ description of controls more semantic), some structural fixes (such as grouping controls into smaller, more logical sub-categories; e.g. 'infantry movement', 'vehicle controls', 'weapons', etc.), and some other things like adding tool-tips on hover, etc. Actually, that last one ran into some unexpected roadblock, so it seems unlikely to make it into our next build.

Best,

RiE

* The problem being, in my view, that even if the original system of displaying controls was fit-for-purpose, by - over the years - adding more and more features/ complexity to the game, whilst not thinking carefully about the effect of such features from all perspectives (e.g., 'will it need another control', 'don't you think this list is getting a bit long now?', 'ah, let's just stuff it on this key over here', etc), we dig our own 'usability grave' a litter deeper each time. :)

Yep, that's exactly the things I mean by "first-class" treatment. It's probably a weird way to express it. :)

I fully agree with your assessment of the cause and the effect.