Syria - What should we do if anything?

[maturin]

There's more countries with [I]people who don't like to live under dictatorships that massacre tens of thousand of their people.

Is this a sentence?

Why should I care about Syria?

I don't recall saying that you should. I have learned not to argue with people who think that apologizing for tyrants and murderers on other continents is the best way to express displeasure with the foreign policy of their own government.

How big fraction of Syrian people want regime change?

A big fraction, otherwise the fighting would have ended quickly, and Syria's powerful military would have turned this into a low-key counterinsurgency operation rather than showing signs of disintegration. After Tunisia, Egypt and Bahrain do we really still have to actually make the argument that Arab despots are not popular? When you rule through violence and the economy sucks, people want you gone. This doesn't excuse violence necessarily, or mean that intervention is called for, it's just true. So ffs, get on board with basics.

Why is Saudi Arabia OK?

Do I look like the U.S. State Department to you?!?

Doubtful. I'd say opposite.

Tens of thousands of terrorist fighters is a fantasy that only exists for Ghaddafi, Putin and Rumsfeld.

[oxmox]

Just look what happened with Libya, chaos and a desaster after Gaddafi is gone. Of course Gaddafi deserved a bullet to his head, but it is a scandal that only a short time before the western world were shaking hands with him like a good friend. The so called Freedom Fighters did no just kill him, they did torture and ffs stake him...this is not the way how you treat people in the name of freedom and democracy.

Do you know who was the highest ranked rebel leader and has a key position in Libya now ?

Abdelhakim Belhadj, Salafist and a former Islamist fighter in the Soviet-Afghanistan war. He did join the Taliban and had close ties with Al Quaida, imprisoned in Guantanamo Bay.


Iam for sure not defending the Assad Regime, but you have to see that the situation in Syria is complicated. Around 2.1 million christians are living in Syria, around 10% of the population. Some of them are refugees from Iraq who got pursued and got protection from the Alawite regime. Allegedly 10-15.000 did flee from Hama in other regions of Syria since they got into the clashes between the muslim groups struggling for power.

Like I wrote before, what do we win when a military intervention would happen ? This would not solve the conflict, since the rivalry between the muslim groups would not just end. Look at Libya and how bloody the situation is now, in Syria it would be probably a human desaster with way more deaths than just 10k people. There is no transitional council, on the contrary the opposition groups are quarreled. The situation doesnt look that it could be solved by only sending troops into the country.

With the help from abroad in form of money and weapons the conflict got strengthened, it just adds fuel to the fire. But at the end it is not solely about Syria, to weaken the Iran is still a strategical aim and Syria is one of the key role.

[Tijai]

Why? is this true?
British forces in syria?

http://www.rt.com/news/damascus-batt...ces-syria-768/

[PELHAM]

The opinion of ONE counts as the opinion of millions. Makes total sense.

Never said that did I, it was never meant to be anything more than one example, we rarely get to see interviews with ordinary Syrians because they know if they talk to the press it ends up with a 'holiday' with the Mokhaberat, possibly followed up with a bullet in the back of the head. I would ask millions of Syrians if I could, problem is you can't, because free speech isn't tollerated. Until we get an election no one knows. If Assad really is that popular why doesn't he hold a free and fair election. If the man is really loved by a majority he will win.

Incidentally, the Mokhaberat was set up with the help of the Stasi in East Germany and is modelled on it. The Syrians sent members of it's security services to be trained and to learn from the East German example. The East German's of course learned from the fine example of the MVD and KGB. Funny how the Soviet hangover is still with us after all this time.

[oxmox]

Do you think that free elections currently would make any sense with the current hate between the muslim groups ? The Assad Regime is an hideous dictate, but is it worse than others. Is Saudi Arabia a democratic nation for example, where woman get stoned to death or heads get knocked off ? What about the bloody oppression in Bahrain, where tanks did fight opposition groups on the street ? Syria is the last secular nation in the whole arabic world by the way, its the question if the Syrians would get anything better after the fall of the Assad regime. The religous group Alewites, a minority which leads this country, are not really loved in the muslim world with its rather esoteric religious parts and rather seen as heretic. The massacre and riots between 197x and 198x were terrible and a crime, but did you actually read what the so called "Muslim Brotherhood" did stand for in this time ? Its a tragedy...no doubt and there will be victims, doesnt matter in which direction the country will go.

[Eble]

Lots of rumours of UK special forces in Syria, it would be expected to see the CIA/SAS messing about, getting a bit hairy with Russians and Irainians on the ground also, this could be a real mess.

http://www.debka.com/article/22133/B...d-under-attack

[PELHAM]

Abdelhakim Belhadj, Salafist and a former Islamist fighter in the Soviet-Afghanistan war. He did join the Taliban and had close ties with Al Quaida, imprisoned in Guantanamo Bay.

No, completely untrue, was never a member of the Taliban (he fought with the Mujahideen against the Soviets, not the same thing at all) and the links with Al Qaida were nonsense planted by Gadafi agents. The western intelligence agencies were duped into sending him back to Libya which is what Gadafi wanted as Belhadj was part of the Libyan opposition. The man has fought against opression all his life and the part my government played in sending him into the clutches of Gadafi makes me rather ashamed. His brother was killed by Gadafi loyalists during the uprising. There is no disaster in Libya either, things are not ideal but nothing worse than expected.

---------- Post added 06-27-2012 at 12:01 AM ---------- Previous post was 06-26-2012 at 11:49 PM ----------

Lots of rumours of UK special forces in Syria, it would be expected to see the CIA/SAS messing about, getting a bit hairy with Russians and Irainians on the ground also, this could be a real mess.
http://www.debka.com/article/22133/B...d-under-attack

Obviously not true, sources in Russia keep pushing this disinfo and it has been denied repeatedly and no proof has emerged. They say they are there to create a buffer zone along the Turkish border rofl, not a special forces mission, they don't have the numbers or equipment either. It's the usual crap released in an attempt to change bad headlines.

---------- Post added at 01:04 AM ---------- Previous post was at 12:01 AM ----------

Do you think that free elections currently would make any sense with the current hate between the muslim groups ? The Assad Regime is an hideous dictate, but is it worse than others. Is Saudi Arabia a democratic nation for example, where woman get stoned to death or heads get knocked off ?

Judge for yourself:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_r...n_Saudi_Arabia
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_rights_in_Syria

I would say Syria IS worse than Saudi as the number of deaths is far greater and there are large numbers of refugees leaving the country, there is an obvious humanitarian crisis. When did Saudi last bomb it's own cities, have a massacre, refugee crisis or a defection from the military? Also in Syria the security aparatus is designed to preserve the leadership of just 1 person, it's 100% political. Saudi is a more complex case because it is the centre of Islam and is governed by Sharia law. Regarding the secular status of Syria that is up to them to decide. If the majority want an Islamic state and vote for it, who can criticise that? If they start persecuting minorities I would oppose it, but that possibility is no excuse for maintaining the current mess.

RE stoning you are spreading untruths again, women currently do not get stoned to death in Saudi and the people beheaded are sentenced quite openly by the Sharia courts, the vast majority for religious crimes. Now I have a big problem with religion in general and I disagree with Capital punishment but can you show me refugee camps where Saudis are living in exile?

In Syria places like Hama have partially emptied and the citizens are seeking refuge from their own government in Palestinian refugee camps! Most Saudis don't seem to have a problem with the way their country is governed no matter how bizarre it seems to us. Political tollerance and general everyday freedom of expression does not exist in either nation. Syria is something that needs urgent change as thousands of people are dying now, that isn't happening in Saudi Arabia. They can be left to come to their own senses, perhaps we can target them with cruise missiles loaded with Richard Dawkins novels? lol

(I'll save you much pain with Dawkins, he is a difficult read. Basically he suggests the obvious, religion was made up by people to explain what they didn't know. Now we know 99.9% of what there is to know, religion today is practiced by the ignorantly stupid and poorly educated. Having had discussions with devout people of all kinds, from a guy fresh out of a Pakistani madrasah to my devout Christian relatives, I agree with him.)

[GiorgyGR]

I saw pictures of dead families -out there- some time ago.
News said the casualties were from rebel territories (=Muslims btw)
I almost (or did) cried seeing all this.
Some days ago i read testimonials from lots of Christian/Catholic apostles..that rebels killing any Christian and catholic they see (Civilian families of course.)
THIS is happening years and years all over the world (especially wealthy on resources lands with poorly educated people*by luck)
So..
If you "really" care for human rights etc..lets start thinking how to build a better world for the next generations.
*and don't tell me with guns and stuff..or i ll eat my hat

[oxmox]

Well then I dont know how you should call the chaotic situation in Libya, There are still fights between rebels and pro gaddafi groups, the economic of the country is destroyed, the number of civilian victims did raise to a very high number, Navy Pillay from the UN and commisionar for human rights talks about 8500 imprisoned and tortured detainees, the MSF did suspend its operations in Misrata after the situation there became "impossible" with prisoners "being tortured and denied urgent medical care", apart from terror attacks Libyens are fighting each other and the security situation has deteriorated. Militias continue to constitute the primary force in Libya, militarily and politically. They represent regions, tribes and powerful families, though some are simply criminal.

Just one article out of others available from the main press:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisf...than-elections

call it what you want....if not a desaster, it is chaotic for sure.



I was talking about the political system and not how many someone killed. You cant say how the other dictatorships would react, actually they did react against the arab spring movements but these smaller clashes were bloody depressed. Saudi Arabia has a state religion as far I know and Syria is the only arabic country which is secular.

Talking about Human Rights in Saudi Arabia ... The state religion is Wahabism one of the most severe and intolerant form of the Islam, you cant even take the bible into the country or pray in public. Not to speak of woman rights, the complete use of the Sharia and so on....it would be hypocritical to say that SA would shine out more positive with its political system. I dont know when was the last stoning but there were incidents some years ago... Iam not that religious, but people should not have problems with religions which is just an idle wish of course, actually the 3 main religions Judaism, Islam and Christianity are based on Abraham, they have all the same roots. In Islam for example, Jesus is a very loved prophet.

Do you really think you can solve the conflict with cruise missiles...of course not, you are just joking. A change is welcome of course, but it is the question how....you wont solve historical clashes between muslim groups with just bombing them. This is a different situation, its a religious conflict.

Pelham, at the end we will watch it anyway on TV or read it in the newspaper how this whole desaster will end..... =)

[Spooky Lynx]

He is not a spokesman for the opposition, he is simply putting his own views to the media. You will note that people inside Syria are not freely able to do so as there is no free press and the international media are not allowed in the country (obviously they are hiding something). For doing so he would probably be arrested, tortured and killed along with family members. As he is now in Turkey which is a more democratic and free country than either Syria or Russia he can say whatever he likes. I refer you to the democracy index (Syria and Russia seem to have much in common there too lol):
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Democracy_Index
88 Turkey 5.73 Hybrid regime Parliamentary republic
117 Russia 3.92 Authoritarian regime Federalism, semi-presidential system, bicameralism
157 Syria 1.99 Authoritarian regime Presidential system, single party, republic

Sure, his (and other defectors' too) opinion is the same as the opposition agenda just accidentally! And he talks the same as western governments accidentally too, that's truth!
Dear Pelham, I don't want to ruin your childish dreams but... There's no free press. At all. Everywhere. Press is called the 4th power (after judical, legislative and executive branches) not just for lulz. So your fetish called international media does not equal reliable, honest, impartial and free from somebody's influence source of information. Try to say something against LGBT or about black racism in western countries and you'll see how truly free are media.
P.S. Those indexes do not refer any real things just because one things - they are made by engaged persons who have their own agenda, live in another country (doubt they've been in all the countries they list) and ways to count the index. I may establish my own agency and publish my own index of something, but it doesn't mean that it will reflect real thing in the country. So in 99,99999999999999% all that indexes of democracy/happiness/insert other stuff you want are just horse apples.