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Syria - What should we do if anything?

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Never seen so many Bits and Bytes wasted that hard. You could've saved a tree with sparing this.

If you promise not to kick someone while fighting him, and you still kick him, the referee will jump in because it's illegal.

Replace kick with use gas and referee with NATO.

However, I still see no reason why Assad should use nerve gas and provoke a NATO Attack when he's clearly on the winning side right now. Especially with Irans and Hezbollahs support.

Thanks. It is not to hard to see if you open your eyes.

Forgot to mention that these war games the elite´s play is from our taxpayers money and it us the people that have to fight and die for them, not the elite´s.

Of course the war in Syria should have been inter-vented long time ago, from the beginning. That in anno 2013 it is still possible that a regime/power can start wars, manipulate and control the people of their country is not acceptable anymore. Unfortunately our world is still more medieval then we like to think and still it is the elite keeps the world and our civilization in a modern version of a medieval age, but I digress now.

---------- Post added at 05:51 PM ---------- Previous post was at 05:45 PM ----------

Syrian gov was what one would consider 'soft dictatorship' , citizen rights were granted as long as you not went against state

(hell not that much different from west state system)

Thats so true. Basically every Western ´democratic´ country is like that.

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if You followed news, several chemical storages got overran by rebels in past two years of the conflict

i'm not saying military storages but chemical, military probably too but i don't remember it's been quite some time

ask self why would Israel bomb something all of sudden in Syria w/o refusing to confirm it was just because of usual convetional weapons like missiles

various chemicals are http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=f27_1377525772 available in rebel hands for quite some times ...

Astounding....I thought you were better than that???

The rebels overan a few chemical factories containing nothing more sinister than large stocks of bleach. The Russians verified that all Chemical weapons were moved to sites near Tartus at the coast. The problem with you IT specialists is you don't know your science - you can overun my kitchen cupboard if you like? I have stockpiled acetic acid, sodium chloride, sodium hypochlorite mixed with sodium hydroxide and hydrogen dioxide. Perhaps later I will realise my plot to create a tasty coating for fish and chips followed by a concentrated attack on the toilet. Lets hope I don't get them mixed up.

Underground store room:

Black cylinders are oxygen (white top on the nearest indicates medical grade)

ampules of atropine and adrenaline

gas masks provided by the USA and EU for protection from gas attacks

I don't know what is in the plastic containers but the oily stains indicate diesel to me. If it were chemical weapons the guy with the flimsy surgical mask would be dead.

Other medical supplies and conventional weapons, LPG gas canisters made into IEDs.

Looks like the rebels have stockpiled equipment to protect themselves from CW attacks from the government to me - no doubt you would interpret that differently?

The Israelis have bombed all sorts of things in Syria, at the time it was stated that the target was long range missiles capable of accurately targetting Tel Aviv from Lebanon. The Israelis said that they were being passed to Hezbollah by Assad as an attempt to widen the conflict. You will of course know that Hezbollah launched rockets into Israel the day after the Chemical attack in an attempt to divert press attention. Israel bombed targets in southern Lebanon in response. Can I ask what news you watch? I could do with a giggle?

also you need to change your rhetoric cause confirmed chemical attacks are 2 neighborhoods (each next to other) of Syria's capital ...

next 2 are also bordering them but unconfirmed and the 5th one on opposing side of city is also unconfirmed ...

also chemical attack in own Capital city would be crazyness especially when you use something as unpredictable as chemical weapons

next to that all indications shows the Syrian gov is actually winning since early of this year

(adopting new strategies like pinpoint attacks, combined arms and well though out planning on counter-insurgency)

That part of the capital was in Rebel control and still is, it was under siege in a combined attack by the Army and Hezbollah - it was the Rebels that escorted the UN around the area and the hospitals. How did you miss that, the videos were all over the news this morning?

2 neighbourhoods, really?

Médecins Sans Frontières says hospitals it supports in Syria have reported treating 3,600 people suffering from “neurotoxic symptomsâ€.

http://www.euronews.com/2013/08/24/medecins-sans-frontieres-reports-syria-patients-with-neurotoxic-symptoms/

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/7/7d/Ghouta_chemical_attack_map.svg/800px-Ghouta_chemical_attack_map.svg.png

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2013_Ghouta_attacks

Syrian gov was what one would consider 'soft dictatorship' , citizen rights were granted as long as you not went against state

(hell not that much different from west state system)

does anyone read history ?

Why don't you start?

In 1982 Hafez al-Assad responded to an insurrection in the city of Hama by sending a paramilitary force to indiscriminately kill between 10,000 and 55,000 civilians including children, women, and the elderly during the Hama massacre.
According to Human Rights Watch, as of 2009 Syria’s poor human rights situation had "deteriorated further". Authorities arrested political and human rights activists, censored websites, detained bloggers, and imposed travel bans. Syria’s multiple security agencies continue to detain people without arrest warrants. No political parties were licensed and emergency rule, imposed in 1963, remained in effect.
The secret police prevents people from even approaching embassies of foreign countries, making it difficult to get a visa to travel abroad. Furthermore, Syrians can not leave the country without an "exit visa" granted by the authorities
According to the Syrian Human Rights Committee that there were 4,000 political prisoners held in Syrian jails in 2006.
German journalist Billy Six spent 12 weeks being held by the Syrian authorities before finally being released on 5 March. German freelance journalist Armin Wertz’s detained by the Syrian authorities since 5 May.
Syria bans websites for political reasons and arrests people accessing them. Internet cafes are required to record all the comments users post on chat forums.[32] Websites such as Wikipedia Arabic, Youtube and Facebook were blocked from 2008 to 2011.
Article 520 of the penal code of 1949, prohibits having homosexual relations, i.e. "carnal relations against the order of nature", and provides for at least three-years imprisonment
While there is no official state religion, the Constitution requires that the president be Muslim and stipulates that Islamic jurisprudence, an expansion of Sharia Islamic law,[23] is a principal source of legislation.
The United Nations, meanwhile, has documented that Syrian security services officers had gang raped boys as young as 11 years old during the uprising against President Bashar al-Assad.
Edited by Mattar_Tharkari

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I doubt the Islamist filled Syrian Rebels will be any better than the Assad regime, Mattar. It's only a matter of picking the lesser of 2 evils.

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We all know that the Islamists (read al Qaeda) have a history of trying to use gas. Assad might be a ruthless dictator, but neither he nor his father has a history of doing that extreme things. And so far, no one has come up with an explanation for exactly why he would do something as simply stupid as employ it on a single occasion on a small scale, when he's actually been gaining the upper hand for several months now. Not big enough to help, but only big enough to potentially cause a foreign intervention. Seriously, unless Obama can show some more solid evidence than "our intelligence says he did it", he'll be nothing short of a criminal if he decides to launch a military intervention.

And that's a lot coming from me, who is quite conservative and generally in favour of things like the Afghanistan and Iraq wars, as well as the bombings in Libya.

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We all know that the Islamists (read al Qaeda) have a history of trying to use gas. Assad might be a ruthless dictator, but neither he nor his father has a history of doing that extreme things. And so far, no one has come up with an explanation for exactly why he would do something as simply stupid as employ it on a single occasion on a small scale, when he's actually been gaining the upper hand for several months now. Not big enough to help, but only big enough to potentially cause a foreign intervention. Seriously, unless Obama can show some more solid evidence than "our intelligence says he did it", he'll be nothing short of a criminal if he decides to launch a military intervention.

And that's a lot coming from me, who is quite conservative and generally in favour of things like the Afghanistan and Iraq wars, as well as the bombings in Libya.

No history - apart from the small scale CW attack earlier this year, witnessed in Damascus by Le Monde journalists and that secret nuclear reactor which they tried to cover up? The flimsy denials and non-cooperation are habitual:

http://www.lemonde.fr/proche-orient/article/2013/05/27/chemical-war-in-syria_3417708_3218.html

SyriaReactorPict34.jpg

IAEA non-compliance finding

For nearly three years, Syria refused the IAEA requests for further information on or access to the Dair Alzour site. On May 24, 2011, IAEA Director General Amano released a report concluding that the destroyed building was "very likely" a nuclear reactor, which Syria was required to declare under its NPT safeguards agreement.[93] On June 9, 2011, the IAEA Board of Governors found that this constituted non-compliance, and reported that non-compliance to the UN Security Council.

Edited by Mattar_Tharkari

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And a nuclear reactor equals using WMDs on civ-pop as retribution for a civil war, or any other reason because?

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War is becoming big business. It is more about money now a days more than about what is "right". At the end of the day should the West get involved with Syria's problems.. no.. will we, probably.

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And a nuclear reactor equals using WMDs on civ-pop as retribution for a civil war, or any other reason because?

It shows similar patterns of behaviour, non compliance with international treaties and similar denials and cover ups. The demolition of the nuclear reactor was one of the quickest in history and the last 5 days of intensive shelling of the areas subjected to gas attack were a similar attempt to cover up evidence.

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honestly if i was leading rich, sovereign state ....

i would get nuclear program going , both for energy production and peaceful research and military

because , in this world ... some states fear only nukes ...

Israel did what they keep doing for last decades, bombed the reactor just for sure to avoid future problems ...

i'm pretty sure if Asad told them about it and asked nicely to not destroy it the Israel would consider it ;)

anyway MT i'm not going to react on your posting reaction on my post ...

just note that i wasn't defending the regime as being nice, just as being the better outcome than anything produced in past decades in 'peaceful' bombing

it's waste of typing , You may believe what you want ...

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honestly if i was leading rich, sovereign state ....

i would get nuclear program going , both for energy production and peaceful research and military

because , in this world ... some states fear only nukes ...

Israel did what they keep doing for last decades, bombed the reactor just for sure to avoid future problems ...

i'm pretty sure if Asad told them about it and asked nicely to not destroy it the Israel would consider it ;)

anyway MT i'm not going to react on your posting reaction on my post ...

just note that i wasn't defending the regime as being nice, just as being the better outcome than anything produced in past decades in 'peaceful' bombing

it's waste of typing , You may believe what you want ...

The problem is you seem to have very limited knowledge about all this:

Syria is a signatory of the nuclear non-proliferation treaty - that means it has agreed not to develop nuclear weapons. Get it? They were in breach of international law. That is why they denied the airstrike and demolished the complex before discussing what happened and allowing an IAEA inspection. That reactor did not have power production incorporated in it's design. There were no turbines, power assemblies or power lines built. It was a simple design provided by North Korea and described as perfect for DIY nuclear bomb construction. It was only ever capable of producing plutonium, which has 1 use. It also didn't have proper containment so in the event of an accident by inexperienced operators there would be serious consequences for the region.

I don't have any beliefs - I'm only replying with well established facts and history, which you don't seem to be aware of?

The pattern of behaviour during the reactor incident is very similar to the latest chemical attack on Damascus. Deny everything whilst delaying UN inspection and attempting to hide the evidence.

Edited by Mattar_Tharkari

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Assad lost the mediatic war ! and this is for sure ...

When you insist on using CW after being warned by the most powerful country in the world ,then ,either you are an ally to those warning you against doing so (but this is a bit frenetic but still possible) or,you have some suicidary spirit knowing that your army uses oil barrels to bomb ( in this case,bombing israel can be an option too) ... or,and most likely, you were not the one who used chemical weapons,but you don't have enough mediatic power to counter the media armies like CNN and aljazeera !

Edited by On_Sabbatical

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The problem is you seem to have very limited knowledge about all this:

Syria is a signatory of the nuclear non-proliferation treaty - that means it has agreed not to develop nuclear weapons. Get it? They were in breach of international law. That is why they denied the airstrike and demolished the complex before discussing what happened and allowing an IAEA inspection. That reactor did not have power production incorporated in it's design. There were no turbines, power assemblies or power lines built. It was a simple design provided by North Korea and described as perfect for DIY nuclear bomb construction. It was only ever capable of producing plutonium, which has 1 use. It also didn't have proper containment so in the event of an accident by inexperienced operators there would be serious consequences for the region.

I don't have any beliefs - I'm only replying with well established facts and history, which you don't seem to be aware of?

The pattern of behaviour during the reactor incident is very similar to the latest chemical attack on Damascus. Deny everything whilst delaying UN inspection and attempting to hide the evidence.

i love how always someone on internet claims how someone else has limited knowledge about something ...

i seriously hope you in person were at least once in middle east in past 20 years and not just in tourist resorts ... if not , stop giving lectures

again, i wasn't discussing if the reactor was or wasn't breach of w/ treaty some country signed ... (obvious Iran try to evade UN sanctions via Syria's ally)

you just assume i write or think or know not know .. and you assume wrongly

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Don't mind him Dwarden, he believes what he wants to believe and you can't engage in a discussion with him because he simply ignores all valid arguments.

Why should Assad use CWs and provoke a US reaction? It simply doesn't make sense.

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Don't mind him Dwarden, he believes what he wants to believe and you can't engage in a discussion with him because he simply ignores all valid arguments.

Why should Assad use CWs and provoke a US reaction? It simply doesn't make sense.

well he could go completely nuts and demonstrate power ... but why so limited then and why so late? why risk being mass hit by cruising missiles from beyond own defense range?

when it was reaction on same type attack from rebels , but again why not clearly claim it (they used it, we counter-used, it's tragic but it was the only option of escalated reaction)

it could be that some of the elite officers went rogue ... but that would make things even messier (again why so limited use)

it's whole very strange (while tragic), there are no reports of anyone 'high positioned' on either side killed in the attack either so that negates any 'special purpose target' abuse as excuse

Edited by Dwarden

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Why should Assad use CWs and provoke a US reaction? It simply doesn't make sense.

According to simplest logics - he had no benefits from that CW use so he would not use it. According to media hysteria and some officials - Assad is so Assad, he's blody dictator that kills his own citizens for fun.

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well he could go completely nuts and demonstrate power ... but why so limited then and why so late? why risk being mass hit by cruising missiles from beyond own defense range?

when it was reaction on same type attack from rebels , but again why not clearly claim it (they used it, we counter-used, it's tragic but it was the only option of escalated reaction)

it could be that some of the elite officers went rogue ... but that would make things even messier (again why so limited use)

it's whole very strange (while tragic), there are no reports of anyone 'high positioned' on either side killed in the attack either so that negates any 'special purpose target' abuse as excuse

Exactly!

One has to ask who would benefit the most from such an attack?

Assad? Not at all.

His military? Unlikely since they obviously didn't use the opportunity to move in and capture the attacked area.

The Rebels? They are aware that they can't win the war. Provoking an international intervention would really benefit them. They would get more weapons and maybe a no fly zone or direct strikes on Assads troops.

Western Governments? Some of them really look forward to getting involved.

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Most of media are asking all the right questions as regards the clear "bomb them they did it" as opposed to checking it all our first. Its already been stated that the UN are only in place to test the findings to confirm if & what it was but nothing to do with who or why and so on. So in actual fact you have a situation of inevitable outcome anyway, ground-hog day.

I noticed the other side of this with the mentioning the case that if this was a military grade attack then most helping would be effected, but it didnt seem to look like that standard/grade from the footage released with those in that same area while others are passed out or passed away. And also Sarin being produced from home and so on, so the type and grade would help too.

I just hope those batting for the team have any understanding of the ripple effect once it kicks off, the fist shaking may become a little limp at a later date.

Edited by mrcash2009

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Sounds fishy,rebels were loosing since at least start of the year,in fact in the latest months they were pounded by Assad army and loosing territory everywhere.Imo I doubt he ordered the attack,more likely either one of his generals was on double command or went trigger happy with this attack.Assad may be ruthless but he's not a brain dead moron.

Before some guy like Mattar jumps up I don't find excuses for this regime.Syria is in a situation where there is no winning side,today's rebels are tomorrow's insurgents and either side doesn't care about civilians.Not all of them but there are too many groups with fishy interests in there.

If Assad falls it doesn't matter what group seizes the power,in a year at most you'll have the other groups fighting with the new power and fighting will resume.

Looking at Egipt situation the Arab Spring turned out a joke,it seems these countries will never have stability without some sort of dictatorship.It's like telling an african warlord about human rights.

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Before some guy like Mattar jumps up I don't find excuses for this regime.

The media have been doing this all the time, soon as anyone points any fingers any other way then stated then the defence is not caring or "we clearly need to acknowledge something has happened here" .... as if people dont know the obvious already. I also noticed on sky and other channels if you had someone with those questions as a talking head they would run the footage from hospitals and the attack footage large screen next to them, I cant tell you the amount of times I have seen the guy chest being massaged and throth from his mouth over and over and over.

Another thing was sky yesterday had literal map plans with bases and war plan details of what could be launched and what bases, ship count, it was like watching battleships from a laptop ... no other channel was really doing this apart from asking the questions .. amazing the differences and report "styles".

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everyone knows US can rain Tomahawk cruise missiles (around 250+ on Syria on first day and keep going with like 20-30 dayily for next weeks) ...

this all while sitting safely outside Syria's offensive weapons ranges

Syria might have some low rate of fire anti missile defense and maybe some of the AA gun platforms can hit those but they don't have C-RAM system with rapid rate of fire

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Syria might have some low rate of fire anti missile defense and maybe some of the AA gun platforms can hit those but they don't have C-RAM system with rapid rate of fire

Dwarden,it also depends how much russians augmented the syrians AA defenses.If US supplied the rebels with equipment I believe the russians(besides the advisers) did the same with Assad army.

Edited by Krycek

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Dwarden,it also depends how much russians augmented the syrians AA defenses.If US supplied the rebels with equipment I believe the russians(besides the advisers) did the same with Assad army.

If you want an accurate breakdown of weapons supplies there is a good one here:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-22906965

The Russians have supplied advanced weapons to Assad's forces, Iran is suppling rockets, anti-tank missiles, rocket-propelled grenades and mortars despite UN sanctions imposed on its arms exports. Breaking international law seems to be habitual among this small group of nations, yet they choose to hide behind it when it suits?:

Russia has already reportedly sent advanced Yakhont anti-ship cruise missiles, SA-17 surface-to-air missiles, and short-range Pantsyr-S missile systems

It's interesting to note that all Syria's neighbours, except Israel, are supplying or facilitating the delivery of conventional weapons, medical supplies and NBC protection to the rebels? Perhaps they know something about the Assad regime that the very wise and learned members of this forum do not wish to know ;).

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