Syria - What should we do if anything?

[PELHAM]

@oxmox Good grief, I have posted link after link of the Libyan election, oil production, evidence of international investment and the economic progress, they even have athletes at the Olympics. There is some lawlessness and some political tensions which leads to the odd gunfight and kidnapping and recently people have been throwing bombs at the empty intelligence headquarters building in Benghazi as a night time prank. Apart from that, things are rapidly turning around. If you have specific evidence to the contrary, please post it.

The scandal of western leaders shaking hands with Gadaffi exists only with naive people who don't understand international relations. Democratic leaders were never friends with Gadaffi. They were obliged to deal with him after he renounced WMD and the UN and other sanctions were lifted. That is how things work, no matter how unpleasant the person, it's called diplomacy. The myth that a shake of hands and some limited cooperation meant more that it did, is a figment of the imagination of the far left. Since when did the handshake of a politician mean anything? No treaties were signed apart from the $5billion Italian colonial reparation agreement which was a bribe to get Gadaffi to manage illegal imigration. Nothing gave him immunity from slaughtering the oposition or absolve Libya's international obligations under the UN Charter or Geneva Conventions.

I will be 40 in November, I have lived in 5 different countries on 3 different continents and experienced war, terrorism, sanctions and various other political strife and really don't need explanations like the above, I have seen the various media/political slides and spin from all sides. Mumbling the same thing over and over again will not convince me. If you would like to compare Syria's future to that of Somalia that would make some sense, we have Russia to thank for it after they allowed x2 peace plans to fail.

The new myth that all Syria's problems are somehow caused by outside interference doesn't stack up at all. The people who have the greatest interest in seeing the regime topple are the Syrian Majority - the Sunnis who make up 70% of the population. The attempts by Assad and Putin to wash them out of the equation show just how dishonest their position is.

[Hellfire257]

Dunno if you guys have seen this, but go onto LiveLeak and search for "The Free Syrian Army destroyed Russian BMP". Pretty sure that's not a BMP, but look at how that damn thing cooks off!

[Slatts]

Dunno if you guys have seen this, but go onto LiveLeak and search for "The Free Syrian Army destroyed Russian BMP". Pretty sure that's not a BMP, but look at how that damn thing cooks off!

On good ol' YT

[Fenrisulven]

.. What government would do that to their own people?

Pretty much any government. Don't matter if it's a democracy or dictatorship. No need to be a conspiracy theorist to understand it either. All you need is a little knowledge of military history.

[oxmox]

@oxmox Good grief, I have posted link after link of the Libyan election, oil production, evidence of international investment and the economic progress, they even have athletes at the Olympics. There is some lawlessness and some political tensions which leads to the odd gunfight and kidnapping and recently people have been throwing bombs at the empty intelligence headquarters building in Benghazi as a night time prank. Apart from that, things are rapidly turning around. If you have specific evidence to the contrary, please post it.

The scandal of western leaders shaking hands with Gadaffi exists only with naive people who don't understand international relations. Democratic leaders were never friends with Gadaffi. They were obliged to deal with him after he renounced WMD and the UN and other sanctions were lifted. That is how things work, no matter how unpleasant the person, it's called diplomacy. The myth that a shake of hands and some limited cooperation meant more that it did, is a figment of the imagination of the far left. Since when did the handshake of a politician mean anything? No treaties were signed apart from the $5billion Italian colonial reparation agreement which was a bribe to get Gadaffi to manage illegal imigration. Nothing gave him immunity from slaughtering the oposition or absolve Libya's international obligations under the UN Charter or Geneva Conventions.

I will be 40 in November, I have lived in 5 different countries on 3 different continents and experienced war, terrorism, sanctions and various other political strife and really don't need explanations like the above, I have seen the various media/political slides and spin from all sides. Mumbling the same thing over and over again will not convince me. If you would like to compare Syria's future to that of Somalia that would make some sense, we have Russia to thank for it after they allowed x2 peace plans to fail.

The new myth that all Syria's problems are somehow caused by outside interference doesn't stack up at all. The people who have the greatest interest in seeing the regime topple are the Syrian Majority - the Sunnis who make up 70% of the population. The attempts by Assad and Putin to wash them out of the equation show just how dishonest their position is.

The international relationship and diplomacy is often double-edged, you call something naive and others missing further insight about a different view of it. Of course diplomacy is connected with own interests of individual countries, confederations or other close linkage with agreements and we all profit from it. But this doesnt mean that what you call "how things work" is the only viewpoint of it, there is is another side of the coin. If you follow the world history at least since the beginning of the 19th century a lot of the political including geopolitical and military decisions in international relationship are based on similar diplomacy and leads like a red line until nowaday. And yes some call it a scandal that democratic diplomacy goes along with dictatorships or set it up as far they profit from it, but quickly get rid of it with a wagging finger if it doesnt fit anymore with future plans and relationships, Gadaffi is just a tiny example out of others. Iam not a peace activist or someone who babbles solely about humanitarian aid, but I try to get things straight. Its not bad to make some thoughts about unpleasant parts of our western international relationship in our world aswell, the historical events help a lot to understand the present events.

You are right, the situation did rapidly turn around in Libya and Iam not saying the fights and clashes dominate the whole country or have a big impact, but you can read in the news or hear on TV dicussions sometimes infos about it, there were still sporadic firefights between clans a while ago. In general the infos in the main media are rather scarce.
I didnt read about Somalia that much and the reason for russian vetos..probably diplomacy and "how things work", but I know that russia isnt the only nation who did block UN mandates and peace plans.

Where did you get the message from that "all" Syrias problems are caused from outside, didnt mean that so maybe this is a missunderstanding. I am not sure about the percentage and how many are against the regime, but at the end it is important that the regular people can live in peace and have an existence to live from, a quick end of the slaughtering without provoking new ones. These are the ones who suffer most in a conflict.

You seem to have seen a lot in your life already, branded from not so nice expiriences. Well I can understand that you react different to certain toppics with such expiriences. Iam not so far away from your age, have seen many parts of the world just as a backpacker, the good and the ugly, but live and grew up in Europe which offers a rather calm life.

"The Free Syrian Army destroyed Russian BMP"

Holy shit, how this light tank blows up....wow.

[Placebo]

Fenrisulven suspended because duplicate accounts aren't allowed.

Last few posts of bickering deleted because it was primarily with a person now suspended for the above reason.

[PELHAM]

Thanks for your help Placebo.

[PeteWaddell]

What we need to do about Syria is make a map of it in Arma 2. Who's with me?

[Sennacherib]

why should we do something, Syrian people write his history by themselves; yes sure, there are a lot of people killed; but History is always written in blood. My feeling is that the Syrian people will more proud; if they do the revolution by themselves: proud for writing their History, proud for having had the enough strenght to accomplish that.

personally I don't like interference in other countries; excepted whether genocide has been proved. wars in Iraq were illegals and a pitiful demonstration of interference

[PELHAM]

why should we do something, Syrian people write his history by themselves; yes sure, there are a lot of people killed; but History is always written in blood. My feeling is that the Syrian people will more proud; if they do the revolution by themselves: proud for writing their History, proud for having had the enough strenght to accomplish that.

personally I don't like interference in other countries; excepted whether genocide has been proved. wars in Iraq were illegals and a pitiful demonstration of interference

United Nations Charter, international law, wishes of the Arab League, the war in Syria is directed by an authoritarian Govt. mainly against the Majority ethnic group. Russia has already intervened on the side of Assad supplying weapons and using the veto against the wishes of the majority of the Security council and UN General Assembly.

There are all kinds of good moral and legal reasons for interfering because someone else has already done so and blocked the progress of freedom and democracy which in turn blocks basic freedoms and human rights for most Syrians. Rumour has it that Obama has signed off on none lethal assistance which will allow intelligence sharing, communications, logistics and training.