Aiming Accuracy in Arma 3

[Rye]

What do you think tactical pace with pistols will be like? Dual-weilding accuracy is going to be so hard...
Flame-bait without mentioning BF3, where's my sticker?


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bu3MWNVLipY Slovakian Special Forces (c.2009, by Tango, SF TL).
Love the accuracy seen here. Little sway, cadence of shooting, easy maneuver, stable moving platform, quick shots in succession.
I dream tactical pace will be this good... *drool*


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XckaAP8frcE Slovakian Special Forces, Linear Range Drills (by Tango SF TL).
It is an MP5, I get the arguments. I had a discussion though with Coulumn, I don't know what others think of the idea...
But what if certain weaponry changed the way it handled (hold up, I know it already does that) in terms of these new features/ideas.
For instance you needed real trigger control, good consistent breathes and a slow heart rate for a sniper rifle but it was really negated for the MP5 or a pistol, what you needed there was good sight alignment, picture and a small amount of recoil control.

[-Coulum-]

Judging by your statement: 9 seconds vs 3 seconds. So you want to make aiming and taking the shot at range three times harder? Only question I can ask is, how? In list form please.

Well i guess you could say 3 times harder. I am no soldier (yet) and I assume that a soldier could line up a shot like that in less time, maybe 6 seconds. So more like 2x as hard as now. But not 2x as inaccurate.
How I think that can be achieved...

---> a more noticeable figure 8 sway that is smooth and predictable
---> a key to "focus, steady and hold breath" that requires the weapon already be relatively stationary, takes a few seconds to take effect and only
lasts a few seconds


With this kind of system you would
1. acquire a target and put it in your sights as you do now (2 sec).

2. Press the "steady/hold breath/focus" button -your charactr reduces sway by means of breath control, locking arms etc. - over a period of 3 seconds sway would decrease and then reach a minimum of 0. If during these 3 seconds there are any sudden movements the steadying process is immediately cancelled. (3 sec)

4. this 0 sway would last varying amounts of time depending on fatigue - in a rested soldier it would last 2 seconds or so. during that time the player will have his chance to line up the target and take his shot. (2 sec)

5. After the time is up the sway returns to normal.

6. repeat

With that kind of system it would take about 2+3+2= 7 seconds to line up a shot. You may ask how an extra 4 seconds can make that much of a difference but it could mean the difference between a 1vs1 lasting 10 seconds and a 1vs.1 lasting a minute as those extra seconds encourage suppressive fire and allow players to take cover before getting accurately shot at. Imagine what it would do to a platoon level firefight. I am pretty sure I am going to be told this is too complex however.

VBS2 is designed for military use. ArmA is a game.

I only bring up VBS2 because you seemed to indicate that sway in arma would make aiming harder than it is in real life. And I am simply asking, if that were true, why is it that VBS2, which is designed for military use and which tries as best it can to represent reality accurately, uses weapon sway? If it makes aiming more difficult than it is in reality wouldn't VBS2 not use it?
and keep in mind that many people like tonnes of realism in their game just like many people like zero realism in their games. so when you say "VBS2 is designed for military use. ArmA is a game." I fail to see your point.

But honestly Nicholas, after that vid showing how easy it is to pick off a guy with an aimpoint at such range do still believe aiming should be so simple. Surely there could be little bit of tweaking to sway, "time to steady" or something like that to make shooting more challenging...

It has nothing to do with skill.

Well more difficult aiming would force/require players to be more tactical when trying to be offensive.

I think Arma 3 should have a hardcore aiming systems option for servers. That would enable people who are not super skilled at the game to enjoy it with the simpler Arma 2 aiming system, but those who are better and want to be challenged more, could enable a more complex aiming system that took more time to sort out.

Yeah that would be ideal. That way eveyone gets what they want... of course BI might not want to invest in a feature not everyone is going to use. But Hell just making a smoother sway and adding a "setaimsway" command for addon makers would be good enough for me. I would jump on it. Already use the "setrecoilcoef" when I play SP to greatly enhance fights.

But what if certain weaponry changed the way it handled (hold up, I know it already does that) in terms of these new features/ideas.
For instance you needed real trigger control, good consistent breathes and a slow heart rate for a sniper rifle but it was really negated for the MP5 or a pistol, what you needed there was good sight alignment, picture and a small amount of recoil control.

I like that idea. less sway, and more control for smaller weapons and more sway and more clunkiness for larger weapons. IMO all weapons need decrease in sway while moving, esp. strafing but especially the smaller close combat oriented ones like submachine guns and pistols.

I also find weapons to feel clunky in arma compared to other games. This is fine for larger weapons but for close combat weapons it sucks. I think it would be good to make close quarters weapons handle more like more traditional FPS's (won't mentnion names for fear of being lynched) and make bigger weapons have that "arma" feel to them

[Dekster]

But is this necessarily because of shaky aim or because you are able to see your targets
in more detail in reality so you can hit them in culnerable spots. And how fast can you
make these shots. I don’t necessarily have a problem with the accuracy of shots, but
rather the amount of time and concentration needed to line them up. In arma you can
snap shoot from 200-300 metres away and get a kill in seconds.

Actually, most shots I miss are at relativly close range. (30-120m)

Something else I experienced was for example with the Mod0 MG, I was holding an overview(on my belly), trying to flank the enemy (pvp server, hold).
First shot I mised was a guy who was sitting, he was just a little bit bigger then my red dot and I couldn't line my red dot on him. It was a bit too low, just wanted to put it up a notch, but it just wasn't possible and took a lot of time; by that time he was on the move.

Another "problem" is the opposite, bullit spread can be a pain in the ass. For example for surpressive fire with a mounted MG.

[-Coulum-]

Actually, most shots I miss are at relativly close range. (30-120m)

In arma? how?

Something else I experienced was for example with the Mod0 MG, I was holding an overview(on my belly), trying to flank the enemy (pvp server, hold).
First shot I mised was a guy who was sitting, he was just a little bit bigger then my red dot and I couldn't line my red dot on him. It was a bit too low, just wanted to put it up a notch, but it just wasn't possible and took a lot of time; by that time he was on the move.

yeah that is annoying. Its what I meant by "you are able to see targets in more detail in reality". I don't think there is anyway to fix it. But in reality would a soldier be trying to hit a point target at the ranges this problem occurs at anyways? And what I hate is that when This happens all you gotta do is go prone place the aimpoint as close as possible to the target and spam shots. I find that within 10 seconds the enemy goes down. Like this(sorry if the quality isn't good enough to see the russian, trust me he was alive at the start)

[Rye]

[FIRST QUESTION REPLY]

Well i guess you could say 3 times harder. I am no soldier (yet) and I assume that a soldier could line up a shot like that in less time, maybe 6 seconds. So more like 2x as hard as now. But not 2x as inaccurate.
How I think that can be achieved...

---> a more noticeable figure 8 sway that is smooth and predictable
---> a key to "focus, steady and hold breath" that requires the weapon already be relatively stationary, takes a few seconds to take effect and only
lasts a few seconds


With this kind of system you would
1. acquire a target and put it in your sights as you do now (2 sec).

2. Press the "steady/hold breath/focus" button -your charactr reduces sway by means of breath control, locking arms etc. - over a period of 3 seconds sway would decrease and then reach a minimum of 0. If during these 3 seconds there are any sudden movements the steadying process is immediately cancelled. (3 sec)

4. this 0 sway would last varying amounts of time depending on fatigue - in a rested soldier it would last 2 seconds or so. during that time the player will have his chance to line up the target and take his shot. (2 sec)

5. After the time is up the sway returns to normal.

6. repeat

With that kind of system it would take about 2+3+2= 7 seconds to line up a shot. You may ask how an extra 4 seconds can make that much of a difference but it could mean the difference between a 1vs1 lasting 10 seconds and a 1vs.1 lasting a minute as those extra seconds encourage suppressive fire and allow players to take cover before getting accurately shot at. Imagine what it would do to a platoon level firefight. I am pretty sure I am going to be told this is too complex however.

[IDEA REPLY]

I like that idea. less sway, and more control for smaller weapons and more sway and more clunkiness for larger weapons. IMO all weapons need decrease in sway while moving, esp. strafing but especially the smaller close combat oriented ones like submachine guns and pistols.

I also find weapons to feel clunky in arma compared to other games. This is fine for larger weapons but for close combat weapons it sucks. I think it would be good to make close quarters weapons handle more like more traditional FPS's (won't mentnion names for fear of being lynched) and make bigger weapons have that "arma" feel to them

Thanks. They sound like pretty achieveable ideas based on a good philosophy of the game. My idea won't be incorporated so I hope the figure-8 sway is slowed naturally, especially for close quarters and point or instinctive shooting.

I agree with what you have stated. They feel clunky to me also. I've gone through 4 years of Arma gaming, 3 mice, multiple different in-game settings and configurations such as deadzone, axis sensitivity, graphics and FPS-speeds to finally get a workable responsive setting that is good for common situations but not all. For instance, I still get over-sway at times, I am still a bit stuttery (the 'weight' factor) trying to get on target with the mouse - in COD/BF3/Nameyourshooter (Sorry metalcraze!) it is a lot more "I see a target at close range, move mouse, I'm on the target, no problems". Fast gaming, the exact needed for PVP/URBAN/CQB.

I'd like to expand...
Basically you're right. I'm suggesting closer combat weapons are easier for the player to use, not just handle in terms of accuracy:
- Less sway and over-sway (Figure-8; stationary and moving)
- Faster and more responsive to mouse movements (like a conventional shooter)

Larger weaponry or calibres should have:
- More sway dependent on breathing etc, and moving sway similar to now (with better character movement animations it could be way easier to control in urban settings)
- Less responsive actions as compared with smaller weaponry

The simple basis could be: Weight, size, calibre, role/use (I.e. CQB-only or long-range).
Note: Stance, leaning would change test conditions and possibilities for A3.

"Testing" standards:
5m distance. 1m spacing between targets.
Moving or shooting is up to you.

M16 Stationary Standards.

Start from a right facing position, lateral/pararrell to the target. Power turn into the target zone, bring up sights and sweep from left to right and back.
You see some amount of over-sway and brick-like hesistation to drag the sights on target. A "spin" and unnatural movement within the sight picture, my guy must be on crack.

Real-life M4-series comparison.

He has faster cadence, better control, more responsive shooting, less sway, more accuracy down sight or barrel line.

M16 Moving Standards.

Now this video is all down to HOW YOUR CHARACTER MOVES. He shakes a lot, he wobbles, does he have a peg leg?

MP5 Stationary Standards.

A hell of a lot more reactive and accurate but still vitally important that it can over-sway easily and miss simple shots.

MP5 Moving Standards.

These standards are better than the rifle moving standards. I think the sight and angle of movement helps a lot.
Multiple rounds were put down giving more hits, and you could lead the target easier with it being more reactive and movement.

M9 Stationary Standards.

Way better in terms of recoil obviously but also reactivity and sight picture.

M9 Moving Standards.

A lot weaker of a run. A less stable platform when moving.
Combat pace here we come...

MP5 and PISTOL REAL LIFE COMPARISON ABOVE, TOP OF THIS PAGE, SF VIDEO.


For longer range you should NEED more CONCERNTRATION and SKILL to use it. The opposite effect is seen in Arma for CQB: You need to concerntrate heavily to get line-of-shot, POA/POI. It should be negated in CQB, especially room clearance. Orientate, engage.

*NOTE: This is not true research, try it for yourself. I'm not saying BIS should base a conclusion off this post but I'm trying to hit points I find hard to put into words.

[-Coulum-]

For longer range you should NEED more CONCERNTRATION and SKILL to use it. The opposite effect is seen in Arma for CQB: You need to concerntrate heavily to get line-of-shot, POA/POI. It should be negated in CQB, especially room clearance. Orientate, engage.

Exactly. Close range shooting should feel natural and require no real thinking. long range shooting should require more time and concentration. In arma its the opposite way around, at least for me. It makes CQB slow and not nearly as enjoyable as it could be, and makes ranged firefights far to quick and unforgiving.

I agree with the rest of your post as well, just to lazy to quote it.

[Rye]

This is true. As you have stated before, "Arma has it backwards - aiming in close quarters is too hard, aiming at far range is too easy". This is exactly right, even with "Close Quarter" weaponry and sights or attachments it is still flawed. The only thing I agree with in that sense within Arma is fighting with a sniper or marksman rifle in Close Quarters is way too hard and awkward. As Tango says, it's about "shooting on the edge".

I must note as well in the top videos the amount of demonstrations we see: Full or partial pistol transition, one or two hands. Combat or tactical (retainment) reloading. Hand and shoulder transitions. The stabilization during shooting in cadence(*). All mentioned before earlier in this thread and others such as the animation topic and wishlist.

*This type of stabilization with LMG's I don't think we shall see, but it is a good reference video.

What do you think accuracy and accuracy factors should be like in Arma 3 with LMG's or HMG's? Because we are going to see them... and use them. No doubt about that.

Some previous posts have mentioned America's Army 3; though good I do not like the accuracy within:
http://www.americasarmy.com/images/forums/tt3_9.jpg
This cone of fire, dispersion level to me seems a bit overkill. It's just wrong, it narrows within too close a distance.
It would make a game like RVS or SWAT 4 where you can be 1-4 meters away and still miss, whilst aiming DIRECTLY at target.

http://www.americasarmy.com/images/forums/tt3_8.jpg
The instinctive shooting accuracy is totally incorrect. They should research point shooting and its benefits. This makes it seem like 'running and gunning' in reality is not possible with accuracy - when that is entirely wrong.

Compare it to SWAT 4, The Regiment's or RVS's movement and orientation speeds is fine but definately not accuracy!
All these games lack it in controlled accuracy because they are purely CQC games and 'total' accuracy may spoil them.

SWAT 4.


The accuracy is just a disgrace in how over-exaggerated it is. What I can agree with is bigger movements making bigger dispersion patters, but the stabilization time is too long, it should take the maximum of a second or two to stabilize yourself (even while in flight) to engage the suspect.

The first videos point really evulates it around the 3 minute mark. Second video notice the reticule adjusting to movement and so forth, but how wide it gets for simple movements. You have to virtually be stood still when engaging, which some individuals teach in real-life, but is virtually stupid for gameplay.

RVS.

In RVS it is the same, stopping and crouching or proning. The CQC side even with the reticule perfectly around the target can leave spaces for misses, 1-3 inches even at 1-3 meters. It can be a joke. Anyone who has ever played these games will get it... and it is very hard to find videos which demonstrate it. Around the 0:40 mark demonstrates accurate hits that miss! Slightly adjustments somehow change a hit on target from a 1 inch miss to a centre mass hit, virtually impossible in reality and stupid.

In both games the movement, reactivity and responsiveness is great for CQB but the accuracy and terminal ballistics are terrible.
Watch any helmet camera footage, you'll get the point.

The Regiment.

Another great game of its time, this time the opposite in what we're talking about. Great accuracy, response, control, etc, most of the time except for the training sessions where it's nighe impossible to complete. But useless animations, it's virtually burst in, shoot, move on. Nothing really special in those terms. COD or BF3 like... You can get quick firefights going and really good conventional game shooting, which is needed for Arma CQB in some sense. An accuracy/response system like this would be great.

Bugs and features to work on:
- Clipping especially when your sight aim is 'pushed' because of an object, instead your character should move with collisions i.e. bringing the pistol back into retention so you can move around the object and still shoot.
- Possible features talked about like breathing control, heart rate control, longer time to line up the shot for harder long-range accuracy.
- Better reactiveness with smaller weapons, talked about above. CQC Combat breakthroughs for better and quicker fights, especially for moving onto and acquiring targets (shooting in cadence, close combat accuracy).

[4 IN 1]

Again, we we already assuming that we have good trigger control and good stance and a good grip because there is no proper way to realistically simulate those things, period. That only left 4 things out, sight alinement, sight picture, breath control and follow through, now follow through itself is a personal thing to judge if your shoot is effective or not and reset is again assumed to be taken care of by gaming itself, breath control, we already know that it is not the most realistic part of the game, but with hope that BI might taken that care of, so that left us only 2 things, sight alinement and sight picture, but again, how to realistically simulate them? Moving while looking down the sight is utterly broken for sure, in no way your gun could swing like that given if you have basic knowledge on how to do it properly and have your fundamental trained up, so that left the problem for shooting target down range, but no one in this thread ever given a proper solution on how to fix it, instead just keep saying it is broken and should be fix.

[Rye]

Breathing control has been done in other games such as AA2/3. You get in a stable platform; you can hear your heart rate, your breathing rate, you take aim and slow it by using the right mouse button, the sights move up and down with your lung expansion; inspiration and expiration (tidal volume, etc) and a small holding space allows you to engage in the most stabilised position.


The bar at the bottom simulates stamina allowance, once you get over it you start shaking and lose aim, you have to breathe in.

Sight picture? No idea. Make it slightly blurry when fully focused?
Sight alignment? No idea. I have a vague idea that is hard to put into words, especially with mobility i.e. transitions and angular shooting.
Don't some other games simulate these or one of them? Pretty sure I've played a game that does and you have to make micro-adjustments. Sometimes in Arma when you're on certain heights, platforms or moving your alignment is off, especially during parts of the movement animation whilst looking down sights and you have to aim further down (by inches) than usual. This happens a lot for me in quick deathmatch PvP's.

Follow through? I don't see how it can be done. You keep your finger on and it may probably keep firing.
Just like trigger control - it's up to the individual. I mean you can't model trigger pressure either... a mouse clicks straight down, no lee-way.

Sometimes Arma 1 did a better job (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hvEuwaSpyBw) for reactiveness, animations such as the walking one seen in the video. How fast the guy can spin and stay on target in a microsecond. The only bad thing is really that hunched over, quasimodo type jogging animation.

And yes deffo about moving and orientating while having your weapon up. I like the way AA3 does it (and even Skyrim's new mounted combat) because your upper body has a big range of movement and it makes it easier turning into corners to engage, adjusting to enemy position quickly, etc, in CQB. Deadzone tweaked properly in-game may around this range of movement but even that seems stubborn at times.

Really, it's not about just fixing things but tweaking them. It's on how BIS model the shooting aspect for instance recoil management and recoil recovery. Maybe there could be a point where a good ROF could be more accurate. For instance GEARS OF WAR have the correct reload point, when you reload you have to click it in the tiny gap available to do the perfect reload. If Arma had something similar for a good rate of fire, that we could not see, maybe a shooters 'skill' would become more apparent. Bit of a dodgey idea now I look on it... Anyways putting the ideas out there. I'll keep thinking about your statement.

What ideas do you have?

Aassuming that we have good trigger control and good stance and a good grip because there is no proper way to realistically simulate those things, period.

Thinking about this. Assume not.
We could try throw this idea out there...

When you create your character you can model individual points which can be changed through the edit profile -> edit character options in the main menu, just like your facial hair and face. Stance, grip, strong hand, leaning. Does he do weaver? Isosceles? Does he shoot left or right handed? Does he do an SUL grip? CAR system grip? CSM grip? How does he lean? What do you think? (Remember it's only a random idea).

It is just like the weapon preferences they are adding, customising weapons but for your character. And on that topic, customisations will affect accuracy such as bipods, tripods, attachments with muzzle-end weight.

[metalcraze]

It says a lot when even a more arcadey America's Army has breathing simulation and somehow it isn't a problem but a solution against overpowered snipers present in ArmA.