Hinds FM

[sportpilot]

so guys bottom line, are you planing to change anything with the FM concerning the Yaw behaviour... more mass inertia, or someting like this...???

[sleat]

Guys are you serious about the FM of the Hinds?

I really really enjoy TOH since the rotor lib update, the most incredible feeling of actually flying of all Helo Sims I have ever tried.
I have benn flying since 1997 I flew about 30 different types of airworthy equipment, Paragliders, Biplanes, Cessnas, Robinson R22s, and even Airliners. RC Helicopters, Gliders and and and... and countless different simulations.
But your Hind FM ist just unbelievable. They feel like they weigh about 2 kilos, like an RC Chopper.
...snip...
blue skies and happy landings
the Baron

Yes. I agree, but I'd say the Hind's FM on expert (which is just lovely in the Hughes500) is worse than any paper-clip improvised Z-bend linkage no-gyro blades un-tracked bent flybar RC model I or anyone I know has ever flown. Worse than an R-22 with out-of-time ball joints and dampers and a parkinson's pilot. Worse than an AH-1 with the SCAS turned off and air in the hydraulic system. Worse than a Bell 47 with the white-side mixer linkages shot off. Worse than an OH-6 in forward flight with the tail rotor completely missing.

It should not require full deflection of the TR control to avoid spinning around with collective torque. Releasing the controls in flight should not result in an instant, violent series of random oscillations resulting in inverted flight within 1 second. No. Never. Not in any conventional (main rotor, tail rotor) helicopter.

My evidence for believing that the real Mi24 should be at least as easy to fly as a particular RC scale heli of mine is:

1. I have a 5 bladed direct swashplate hub with no SCAS or gyro on the cyclic channels, tailrotor only, on my Trex 450 airframe. This rotor system is mechanically very similar to both the 500D and the Mi24 rotor systems.
2. It leads, lags, and flaps in its rubber dampers just as the Mi 24 rotors do, on a smaller scale.
3. It's exactly the same topology, albeit with much smaller moments of inertia, so it should be HARDER than the Mi24 to fly.

Only it isn't. Not by a country mile. I, or any heli nut can have a relaxing time flying it around. Not so the Mi24 in expert.

So, my challenge to anyone on here who would like to defend the TOH Hind's FM, simply post a Fraps grab on youtube taking off, hovering, flying around, transitioning back to a hover and landing in Expert setting under human control near a FARP in any of the challenge missions. Mouse-freelook the camera down so we can see the stick and pedals, as well as out the front. Anybody up for this challenge? I've done such things in other sims. It takes about 15 minutes, and you can leave it uploading.

For extra laughs, try to find even a real Mi24 pilot to try. Rwanda, Zimbabwe, Sudan, Uganda, Sri Lanka, they all fly 'em. They are not all that rare. It must be one of the most popular combat helicopters in the world.

I daresay, either my Steam install is messed up, but only for the Mi24 and not for the other ~3 types, or the Mi24 on Expert isn't flyable by normal human beings, real world pilot or otherwise. So I agree with sportpilot.

To add perspective, we're talking about a 57.5 foot rotor disk, an absolutely huge gyroscope, weighing at least a ton, and nearly 19,000 pound empty weight for the airframe. To think this thing should twitch and thrash around like a 2 gram falling leaf is just silly.

[Max Power]

It should not require full deflection of the TR control to avoid spinning around with collective torque. Releasing the controls in flight should not result in an instant, violent series of random oscillations resulting in inverted flight within 1 second. No. Never. Not in any conventional (main rotor, tail rotor) helicopter.

Hmmm... This doesn't line up with my experience flying the sim. Perhaps there is something odd going on there.

For extra laughs, try to find even a real Mi24 pilot to try. Rwanda, Zimbabwe, Sudan, Uganda, Sri Lanka, they all fly 'em. They are not all that rare. It must be one of the most popular combat helicopters in the world.

Flight model of hind was done in cooperation with real world display pilot from Czech "Tiger" squadron. He was able to fly the same menauvers with aprox same use of controls as with real aircraft. He claimed that the flight model is at least 90% the same behavior. The only difference in use of tail rotor I know about is that real Mi24 has a system that limits pedal / tail rotor angles depending on altitude.

I daresay, either my Steam install is messed up, but only for the Mi24 and not for the other ~3 types, or the Mi24 on Expert isn't flyable by normal human beings, real world pilot or otherwise. So I agree with sportpilot.

That sounds like it might be a possibility.

[hon0]

I'm far to be a helicopter pilot so I can not say the flight model is wrong. However I just technicaly CAN'T be as precise on pedal with the hind than the other helo type. Way too "light" or "sensitive" or "powerfull" don't know how to describe it..

Yes.. Even after ajusting my setting I need something close to 50% right pedal input to take off without.. (The thing that happend when you crush the left pedal ).

is worse than any paper-clip improvised Z-bend linkage no-gyro blades un-tracked bent flybar RC model I or anyone I know has ever flown. Worse than an R-22 with out-of-time ball joints and dampers and a parkinson's pilot. Worse than an AH-1 with the SCAS turned off and air in the hydraulic system. Worse than a Bell 47 with the white-side mixer linkages shot off. Worse than an OH-6 in forward flight with the tail rotor completely missing.

I understand 2 words on 3 but it looks funny

Anybody up for this challenge?

fuk Here is my.. Hmmm FARP in seattle where I challenge my training skill with all kind of helo.

[InstaGoat]

The FM of the Hind is very weird for me too on expert. Very twitchy, completely unbalanced in trim neutral mode (strong tendency to nose up, roll left and yaw right), only controlleable in high speed forward flight.

It seems something is off with the twitchyness, but apart from that, all the helo needs is trim settings.

I would imagine the real one has tabs that can be set for different flight modes (because if the Hind pilots tested the same FM we have right now in expert and found it realistic, the big difference is either us not being twitchy enough, or not having access to control aids that the real pilots do have.)

Would be interesting to hear what this is about.

[Scorlhov]

The FM of the Hind is very weird for me too on expert. Very twitchy, completely unbalanced in trim neutral mode (strong tendency to nose up, roll left and yaw right)

The Hind is very stable for me. Check your axies sensitivity.

I would imagine the real one has tabs that can be set for different flight modes

I don't think so

IMO, the FM are good, except too much torque induced yaw and some weird behavior (due to the rotorlib Fm, i think)
I have no problem to master the hind. With some tweak it will be great.

@hon0
Good training and good landing
I never fly the Hind in Seattle

[EagleEye[GER]]

I actually did try Black Shark right from the get go and I love it - just like the A10C - also a great Sim. I am also planing to upgrade to the latest version of the Balckshark. But I always thought that the Heli feels almost too easy, too smooth to fly. Probably also due to the Koax Setup. But it flies like a piece of rock stable smooth and great!! Exactly what you would expect from a machine this size... Altough... I always thought the Trick about the Ka-50 is the System Depth and not so much the Flightmodel... What do the Ka-50 Experts say?

(I don`t know how far discussing about another product and advertising is allowed, but the moderators will eventualy stop me if necessary.)
The "trick" about the Ka-50 and A-10C IS the FM, I would say(sure DM and system depth is another). They have a table based WITH detailed simulation of surfaces(i.e. X-Plane also use surface simulation, also RoF). Remember that vid?:

Wind is blowing over the surfaces of the blades. Never seen something similar in PC simulations. Another point is, that you actually can see that the whole model is affected by mass and weight. When reloading the Ka-50 on one side you can see the heli is tilting to this side. When landing the Ka-50 on a road and let a truck driving into the tail (for example) of the heli the Ka-50 will be moved by the truck physicaly correct.
Have you flown the Ka-50 without the pitch, bank and lateral dampeners (aka Autopilot, the AP channels)? I think the main reason why the Ka-50 is so stable are the dampeners, which are a stability augmentation system. I often accidentaly forget to engage these and begin to exagerating my control inputs leading to a unstable flight until I engage these APs.

I think the main issue is still that all objects in BIs engine didn`t have the right mass. I.e. the trucks behave the same like tanks and contrariwise. Therefore I´m looking forward to Arma3 and it`s physic system. With Rotorlib the physics for the blades and all other surfaces will be calculated, but maybe will be simplified due to BI engine limitations or something else, don`t know.

[Max Power]

Tanks have 20 times the mass of trucks in ArmA 2.

[sleat]

The FM of the Hind is very weird for me too on expert. Very twitchy, completely unbalanced in trim neutral mode (strong tendency to nose up, roll left and yaw right), only controlleable in high speed forward flight.

It seems something is off with the twitchyness, but apart from that, all the helo needs is trim settings.

I would imagine the real one has tabs that can be set for different flight modes (because if the Hind pilots tested the same FM we have right now in expert and found it realistic, the big difference is either us not being twitchy enough, or not having access to control aids that the real pilots do have.)

Would be interesting to hear what this is about.

An astute observation. My suspicion is that Mi24 pilots did not fly it in Expert mode (which only seems to be available in "Challenges") and declare it was realistic. I'd totally believe they flew it in Free Flight, which feels like "Beginner" to me.

Real helis with hydraulic controls generally have a trim hat switch labelled 'force trim' on the cyclic. Little ones like the R22 have a compensating spring gizmo which applies force in a similar way for different flight.

I wouldn't describe the feeling of flying a full-size heli as 'twitchy' at all unless something is broken. In fact, when it's being flown correctly, which in real life, for safety's sake would be like 100% of the time, you'd really struggle to see the controls move much at all. The collective comes down in a pronounced way once the skids touch, but other than that, not much visible movement in the controls.

You can get either a large model or a real one moving at about 20kt and in calm weather once you trim it, it'll sit like that and just fly along. They just don't thrash about like the Hind does in Expert. 18,000-26,000 pounds of heli would never twitch and thrash about unless metal was breaking.

As far as "Control Aids" some large helis like the blackhawk, apache, or AH-1 have something called SCAS but it's on a switch, and certainly not required to fly the thing. It's a fairly basic pitch/roll rate damper on the cyclic and possibly tailrotor on that vintage of heli.

It does lessen the workload somewhat, like a cruise control or automatic transmission would. It's been posted here that the Mi24 has the same.

By contrast, the H500 doesn't have any stability augmentation, and it feels just fantastic. And the ToH model feels very much like the real thing!

[Scorlhov]

Ah, the KA-50, the heli who can fly throw the trees and dive at 700 km/h without damage
Don't compare the hind with a co_axial rotor heli, not the same thing