Cover Systems, Lean & Realism

[Hoak]

There's an interesting thread here on the Ubisoft R6: Vegas forums with some good illustrations and discussion of both the lack of realism in FPS game lean and cover systems, and (more importantly imho) the lack of fluidity, incorrect control interface, and natural effortlessness of lean and cover as implemented in FPS realism games...



The shooting stances that AntiPersonnel has depicted with his one-sixth scale model are fun, and while perhaps a little on the dramatic side do offer a very clear presentation -- as they are for the most part technically correct...

On a related note, so far Ghost Recon and Call Of Duty 4 are the only games to get both weapon handling and camera perspective right with respect to 'leaning', i.e. no tilting of of the camera and canting of the weapon sights when 'leaning' -- canting a firearm from any fire position is still strongly discouraged in most Mil firearms training (with the exception of some specialized CQC handgun paradigms like Castle's CAR Shooting System) and our brains keep then world upright regardless of our heads position...

But no game offers the correct stance, perspective, and 'scale-effort control' for how one shoots around cover or manages fire-maneuver around a corner. An Operator rarely if ever 'leans' at the waist -- as it would throw you off balance, make for very inaccurate fire and would put you on your ear or if you were firing anything with a punchy caliber, or had to move quickly to require a target or were taking fire. In a real cornering maneuver you'd peek first, and then carefully side-step, or in game parlance 'strafe' while aimed (if you were taking the corner standing).

In games, and as far as animation this could be nicely achieved with a shift in stance that's applied before the first strafing step in the intended direction as this would be natural, fluid and automatic -- there could even if be a small lateral 'fluid posture' range of motion similar to what was offered in Raven if there was the desire to really take this to the next level...

As far as control mechanics an alt-strafe key combination that when held turns lateral mouse motion from turning to strafing would be a nice option making the use of strafe less of a finger exercise and more fluid in how Players control character motion ergo a more 'to-scale-effort control' interface.

A similar realistic change in fire position/posture when crouched and prone could achieve a lot of the same effect -- freeing up some key binds, and adding a lot more realism and effortless immersiveness in one design swoop...

:|

[-Coulum-]

Sorry didn't have enough time to fully read this only skimmed through. But I do dislike the way the weapon and camera tilt while leaning. Whe it comes to cover systems I would prefer none for the player but rather more controlled strafing method combined with a way to fluidly change the height of your stance so there is a middle ground between standing and crouched. I wouldn't mind cover system for the ai though. I'll read this fully later.

[Smurf]

At the risk of sounding like a broken record, I have to say that RO2 have nice animations for that:

Standing(sorry, best pic I could find; note how the char sidestep instead of leaning), crouching and lying (this is the only one where the camera actual tilts).
While using the cover system: taking a peek and aiming\firing.

Plus, there are some "middle animations" for each stance while aiming (you get higher) and "contextual height" while using cover.

EDIT: Hey, Smookie is taking care of animations and he knows what he is doing.

[InstaGoat]

Making a good lean system or cover system without resorting to cheats is impossible, as far as I´m concerned. There´s no intuitive way to do it, and it´s best to leave it out altogether if it can´t be done right, at least for the cover system.

I don´t know -any- game that has a cover system that I could get along with. Some work okay (Mass Effect comes to mind), but are extremely object dependent and glitchy, others are complete trainwrecks (ie Bodycount), but none are what I´d call fluid or intuitive. Everything is done with shortcuts, cheats or ducttape. I wouldn´t be surprised if we don´t see change in this for Arma 3, over Arma 2, and really? I think it´s not that big of a deal. There are much more crucial fields that need to be worked on, such as improving the AI, making all the features work smoothly, make a good campaign (Which the Arma series has been lacking since OFP:R), make good SP and especially MP scenarios for the base game, work on a way to ease players in, and provide documentation for the modding and mission design tools.

Once the basics are down, we can focus on details such as cover systems, detailed weapons operation, etc, etc.

[antoineflemming]

As far as a "cover system", why not just have objects that actually block, or slow down bullets, and just have a ducking animation, kinda like Smookie's PvP Animation pack? A cover system (are we talking like GRAW2 for Console (I think they had that 3rd person cover thing, I only played the PC version so I'm not sure) or like Gears of War?) isn't really that necessary, just as long as objects in the game can provide sufficient cover. As far as leaning, isn't that mostly an animation, stance thing as well? If I'm wrong in my assumptions please say something (in a respectful manner of course), but am I over simplifying this issue?

[Defunkt]

Re-invent the Crouch key as a stance modifier key (one of those Tom Clancy games had a 'fluid stance' system like this); while held down (or double press to toggle ala Freelook) mouse up-down controls leg stance and left-right controls lean. If at any point you move the degree to which you are crouched will determine if you then move crouched or fully-erect, you auto un-crouch when sprinting, auto un-lean when jogging or sprinting.

[Hoak]

It's cool to see almost everyone here is in agreement on important points. As Smurf points out (and I to my own surprise forgot) RO2 is another game that correctly models first person weapon handling (ergo no canting), and avoids ridiculous camera tilting...

If -Coulum-, InstaGoat, and others are talking about 'snap to' cover systems (and this appears to be the case), where the player model 'snaps to' map geometry -- I'd generally agree that this is typically a miserable approach to cover design in that it limits you to one absolute level of cover at a limited range of motion and angles of fire -- that as often as not has player hit box or mesh more exposed then he's able to discern.

But, while I was only referring to stance, lean & peak, camera, and weapon handling with respect to 'cover systems' here, not 'snap to' systems; it does warrant mention the 'snap to' approach doesn't have to be the miserable limited affair they are in most console derivative arcade shooters.

My preference is clearly stated in the OT post, i.e. a system much like the one I described on the RO forums when I was part of the Mod Team almost a decade ago that's in RO2 now and mentioned by Smurf -- but, as an interesting aside there has been interesting Developer discussion that argues multi-player games 'lean systems' may create more 'WTF!' issues there realism, where 'WYSI (NOT) WYG', i.e. it becomes increasingly difficult to have PvP consistent hit-reconciliation as we get to smaller and faster player model displacements in time and space.

So, just snapping your head out for a 'peek' and getting it shot off by a Sniper may be difficult to reconcile in a manner where both Players correctly 'get what they see, and see what they get' even at reasonable pings, as the time and space displacement (interchangeable variables on the server really) are so small they will too often be buried in the margin error caused even marginal latency jitter...

This then is one argument for no lean system at all, or use of a 'snap too' system that reduces all the variables of peeking or shooting from cover to a much more finite and manageable range of variables. If this is in fact the case, how would you fellas feel about all lean and peak being taken out of the game entirely for better resolution of hit reconciliation?

[pe3rless]

medal of honor had well done leaning that was pretty damn good and you could duck as well and had complete control on how far you leaned out and ducked loved it wish they had the mechanic in other games

[-Coulum-]

If this is in fact the case, how would you fellas feel about all lean and peak being taken out of the game entirely for better resolution of hit reconciliation?

Ha! It would be a big mistake to do this lots of upset people. Besides wouldn't quickly running a bit out of cover and then running back in quick cause the same reconsilation problems. Only difference is leaning is a hell Of a lot more realistic. If its really that much of a problem would making the lean animation slower help?

[pe3rless]

medal of honor had well done leaning that was pretty damn good and you could duck as well and had complete control on how far you leaned out and ducked loved it wish they had the mechanic in other games

heres an example http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3qqUrjajTaw