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Thread: Libya today

  1. #21
    Quote Originally Posted by vilas View Post
    Sudayev my friend, two things:
    - US people do not understand difference of freedom and free market/capitalism, for them it is equal , if there no US banks than it means there is no freedom,
    Oh really? Wow, all these years I've lived here and I never knew that. Thanks for filling me in!

    Quit making assumptions.

  2. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by vilas View Post
    Sudayev my friend, two things:
    - US people do not understand difference of freedom and free market/capitalism, for them it is equal , if there no US banks than it means there is no freedom,
    - people think that gov. which keeps order is bad, they prefer their "freedom" when old man couldn't raise pole with flag (old story here) but gang members can shoot other on streets, Columbine is freedom, Oakland is freedom, homeless on streets are also free, people without medical care were also free, "entrepreneurial " businesmen like Al Capone made big money, entrepreneurial Bugsy Siegel is also freedom
    Al Capone was a criminal, not a businessman.

    History shows that there is a very strong correlation between economic freedom and personal (political) freedom. Money is the perfect way to control the people and nearly all of the despotic regimes to exist in recent times have had central planning elements in their economies. Even if there were "corporations", much was owned by the government. This was the case in Nazi Germany, the Soviet Union, China (which still has immense amounts of government control over its economy), Hussein's Iraq, Ghaddafi's Libya. All of them.

    Poland's been experiencing steady GDP growth since the 90s. It had not been caught up in the 2008 economic crisis. Productivity is up. Income is up. All of this Poland owes to its free market economic system.

    You drive a car manufactured by a private enterprise, go to the grocery store to buy food products sold by a private enterprise, go on a computer designed and manufactured by a private enterprise, use an internet connection provided to you by a private enterprise and then complain that private enterprise doesn't benefit you.

    The way things are done now isn't perfect. But what we need is more economic freedom and more free markets. Government "management" only leads to tyranny.

    Everything the government touches turns to shit.
    Fun is just a buzzword people use when they can't think of a good reason why they enjoy something.

  3. #23
    Master Gunnery Sergeant Sudayev's Avatar
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    Sixteen Things Libya Will Never See Again...

    Borrowed from: http://www.globalresearch.ca/index.p...t=va&aid=27280
    1. There is no electricity bill in Libya; electricity is free for all its citizens.
    2. There is no interest on loans, banks in Libya are state-owned and loans given to all its citizens at zero percent interest by law.
    3. Having a home considered a human right in Libya.
    4. All newlyweds in Libya receive $60,000 dinar (U.S.$50,000) by the government to buy their first apartment so to help start up the family.
    5. Education and medical treatments are free in Libya. Before Gaddafi only 25 percent of Libyans were literate. Today, the figure is 83 percent.
    6. Should Libyans want to take up farming career, they would receive farming land, a farming house, equipments, seeds and livestock to kickstart their farms are all for free.
    7. If Libyans cannot find the education or medical facilities they need, the government funds them to go abroad, for it is not only paid for, but they get a U.S.$2,300/month for accommodation and car allowance.
    8. If a Libyan buys a car, the government subsidizes 50 percent of the price.
    9. The price of petrol in Libya is $0.14 per liter.
    10. Libya has no external debt and its reserves amounting to $150 billion are now frozen globally.
    11. If a Libyan is unable to get employment after graduation the state would pay the average salary of the profession, as if he or she is employed, until employment is found.
    12. A portion of every Libyan oil sale is credited directly to the bank accounts of all Libyan citizens.
    13. A mother who gives birth to a child receive U.S.$5,000.
    14. 40 loaves of bread in Libya costs $0.15.
    15. 25 percent of Libyans have a university degree.
    16. Gaddafi carried out the world’s largest irrigation project, known as the Great Manmade River project, to make water readily available throughout the desert country.
    Video about the same as above + some facts. PL + ENG
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature...v=0f_1bFSzSO4#!

    Generally this is mainly all true. I compared the statements with actual statements from the people who were Libya, worked there and lived.
    1. There are small electricity fees / or no fees. E.g 150 sq meter household with air conditioning used to pay for electricity like 300$ a year

    2. All true. ZERO interest fee on loans, 25 year loan with zero intrest fee - true. Everyone can get a loan. National banks only, no jewry run banking.

    3. Having a place to live a basic right of every Libyan man, there are no homeless people.

    4. Not exactly true. If one newlywed works for the govt linked employer - he or she can receive a single benefit worth 5k-15k dinars (10k dinars = 5k USD)

    5. Education and health care are free. Literacy rate before Kaddafi - 25%. Literacy rate in 2000 - 83%.

    6. True. If one wants to become a farmer - certain amounts of logistics, equipment, seeds, farm animals are handed for free. For all other expenses farmer can receive a 30 year loan with no interest fee. Land is handed over for free if farmer agree to choose from a location list proposed by the government. If farmer want's to settle down closer to the city has has to pay for the land. Libyan govt was interested in 'colonization' of desert areas previously uninhabited to create self governing farming communities. Field workers mainly come from Egypt and Sudan.

    7. True + free medicare with airline transport for anyone who can't receive specialist medical treatment in Libya. All Libyan student receive a scholarship worth 1800Eu in Europe or 1400$ in Arab world.

    8. Not really true, because some things have changed. Now - Zero percent loan is offered for deisred ammount of time. Cars are cheap. Hyundai Accent costs like 5000-7000 USD

    9. True. ~14 US cents per gasoline liter. 9 liters ~ 1 USD. Nice.

    10. Libia had no external banking debt during Kaddafi rule. Rothschild's were kicked from this country. (Not anymore since the revolt)

    11. Only if someone's not working longer than one year. Usually the work office finds a jobs in few weeks.

    12. Couldn't confirm this, but sure People in working in Oil industry receive extra benefits.

    13. There is a maternity grant but much lower than 5000USD

    14. Food is really cheap and anyone can afford to eat fresh bread and meat everyday. 50 kilos of sugar = 5 $, 25 pieces of pita breads = 25 US cents.

    15. +- true.

    16. True. Google it, 'the great manmade river' .Tremendous project carried by Libya.
    Last edited by Sudayev; Mar 6 2012 at 09:46.

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  4. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sudayev View Post
    Sixteen Things Libya Will Never See Again...
    But... but they have the political freedom now!
    If the officer can't prevent the booze then he must lead it.(c)

  5. #25
    Guess they wanted a revolution and... descent from heaven to hell

    Spooky Lynx: yeah, politics. We were there 21 years ago... now we are run by bastards and corrupt ppl. And worst thing: majority votes for them
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  6. #26
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    Had they really wanted the revolution?

  7. #27
    At least some of then, the "tribes" (probably not the correct term) not affiliated to Gaddhafi main group, and who probably didn't have a taste of the heaven goodness described above. Lybia isn't a single block, tied together country.
    Funny how suddenly Lybia was heaven on earth. It's all white or black, mmmh? People seriously couldn't be put out of this greatness and all was wonderfull, and every other tale is a lie?

    Look, the whole Lybia freedom war and international involvement was a sad farce, took on by power-hungry western politicians in a time they desperately needed some recognition (at least, for our case, France)
    And Ghaddafi had great plans, and did some real good to his country.
    Thing is, contrary to what is shown above, he was no saint, and some, if not many, were left out of his plans. Minority? Very probably.
    And I'm making a great effort here to set aside his state-terrorism past killing our citizens. (seriously, this whole "he was great" is a joke. A terrorist is never great, you should know that in Russia)

    Having a need to build a whole infrastructure to spy on his citizens through Internet and phone (to a level rarely achieved) is not really a sign of a peacefull country, quite the countrary. More a sign of oppressive regime.

    And where the farce comes to ridicule : the whole spying infrastructure has been design and sold to Lybia .... by France. How sad was that?

    Look up for "Amesys" for more info on this.
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  8. #28
    Quote Originally Posted by PELHAM View Post
    And under communism none of that happened? Or was it because the press was state controlled you didn't know about it?
    no, there was much lower criminal level,

    for me freedom factor is "percentage of - i do what i want"
    so comparing to situation when i have gangs on street and i have militia on street : when there is militia i can walk easily with girl, when there are gang members i afraid to walk, so i am not free, so bigger freedom to walk evening is when there is "militia's eye anywhere" comparing to "absolute lack of control because of freedom or bribery" ,
    press before 89 lied as much as after, the difference is that now they lie "for banks", not for "party",
    for me there is no difference between lies for X-ones and lies for Y-ones, lie is lie ,
    the same bullshit about freedom of travel or etc. , try to hunt for debtor when there is freedom, i am hunting debtor and i know how freedom of travel and lack of control is bad,

    the other things is social safety (jobs) freedom, that i feel free to set family, cause i will get flat, child-support etc. when there is no it, i am not free to have family, so what kind of freedom you talk about in situation when basic human needs are not fulfilled and you must work hard to pay 30 years rates for bank (credit for flat)
    tell me what is the difference between court decision made for party and made because of bribe from businessmen ? is there a difference for someone whose oppressor get away with crime ?
    is it freedom ? for me not at all,

    Poland's been experiencing steady GDP growth since the 90s. It had not been caught up in the 2008 economic crisis. Productivity is up. Income is up. All of this Poland owes to its free market economic system.
    Platforma Obywatelska party's bullshit
    in 90s we lost jobs, homes, etc. many thousands people committed suicides because of economic reasons,
    income is not up, they changed way of providing stats (they count "average salary" in different way than before, Profesor Belka, boss of bank told it and it was written in money.pl service, 8% of growth is "statistical trick"), people i know around (and myself) lost extra-money "premie", etc. i have 3000-4000 PLN less on my PIT, than in 2008 i had, i don't have any growth, i have 5% less than i had , some of my friends have 10 or more percent less, but rate for bank is bigger, pay for electricity and gas is bigger, also payment for flat will be bigger, since city hall changed something in Warsaw, also tickets for travel are more expensive etc.
    so not only my year-salary is smaller for 5-6% (PIT), but also taxes and prices are bigger, don't make here PO-bullshit propaganda,
    10% of my friends lost job this and last year, level of unemployment (add milion of emigrants which left PL after 2004) is over 13% officially counted ,
    prices of medicament bought by my mother or by my neighbor also raised since 1-st of Jan,
    many of my friends lost some percent of salary , we have bigger... credits in banks,
    you know what i owe to free market ? that i cannot afford to have my own flat, that i was looking for job very long to take low-payed job (although i had MSc and good marks) , i cannot have family cause i cannot buy flat, few people that i knew (who worked in liquidated manufactures) committed suicides cause they were too old for employers , etc. along with freedom i can see lots of lads in Adidas/Nike/Reebok clothes which terrorize neighborhood and some other guys that should be imprisoned long ago walk laughing with golden necklace,

  9. #29
    Master Sergeant Serclaes's Avatar
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    I believe that islam is going to take a dominant part in Libya and within the next years the society is going back to a patriachic religious model. With much more social repression than technological repression like "What? You don't do ramadan? Your wife can leave the house and drive a car? I won't hire you..." stuff. What is the lesser evil now? A partially enlightened despot (who occasionally harbored terrorists) or bigotted religious fanatics fighting "westernization".

  10. #30
    Quote Originally Posted by Serclaes View Post
    I believe that islam is going to take a dominant part in Libya and within the next years the society is going back to a patriachic religious model. With much more social repression than technological repression like "What? You don't do ramadan? Your wife can leave the house and drive a car? I won't hire you..." stuff. What is the lesser evil now? A partially enlightened despot (who occasionally harbored terrorists) or bigotted religious fanatics fighting "westernization".
    exactly, from our point of view enlightened despot (Kadaffi, Hussein) was much better for our world (safety),
    but from the other side of coin - freedom and democracy means following will of majority (even if majority will behead minority) , cause freedom and democracy means "nation decide what nation wants, will of majority", right ?
    but main issue is - was it will of nation, or was it will of group of greed people who wanted to take power and money and be in charge,
    many revolutions comes not from solving problems of people, but because "he is king, now i want golden throne and i want to be king", just like gang-fights, cause one gang wants to kill another gang, to collect tribute from local shop-keepers, for shop-keepers there is no difference who abuse them, guys in red baseball cap listening to one raper or guys in blue cap listening to other raper,
    shopkeeper is still abused, but guys in blue cap say "we smashed bad guys" and they demand twice bigger tribute now,
    i look at Libia this way as with this example, for me it was not will of nation, but some group wanted to be rule it and they were supported by west (oil, banks etc) the same like some of our situations after 1989
    Last edited by vilas; Mar 6 2012 at 12:16.

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