Russia and China Veto Secuirty council measures on Syria.

I'm guessing as events in other Arab states took the Russians/Chinese by surprise how quickly things changed, they now want to hold on to the last few ally's in the middles east?

http://abcnews.go.com/US/wireStory/council-meet-saturday-syria-15509831 US site

http://news.ninemsn.com.au/world/8414088/russia-china-veto-un-resolution-on-syria Australia site

http://rt.com/news/syria-resolution-veto-russia-china-515/ Russian Site

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2012/feb/04/assad-obama-resign-un-resolution?utm_source=dlvr.it&utm_medium=feed British Site

http://www.china.org.cn/world/2012-02/05/content_24554688.htm Chinese Site

Are Russia and China finally putting a stop to the Arab spring?

Considering the way they usually deal with their own opponents, i guess they simply aren't shocked by the method used by Assad, apart from the fact they consider Syria as an ally. They don't want democracies to support any freedom movements.

Surprise! Not only "democracies" may enlarge and protect their spheres of influence.

Considering the way they usually deal with their own opponents, i guess they simply aren't shocked by the method used by Assad, apart from the fact they consider Syria as an ally. They don't want democracies to support any freedom movements.

You mean like this?

I'm glad that Russia and China didn't support this. Who is the West to choose who runs Syria? Who is the West to dictate their corporate capitalist freedom to the world? What will Syrians get from this? Nothing like we did in Czechoslovakia, they will be able to vote between a few political parties for who torments them for 4 years, and who sign laws without them knowing, maybe if they are lucky they will be able to run away to Europe like we did to the UK and do the worst jobs only to get ridiculed and laughed at.

The Syrian government has a full right to defend themselves from guerrillas (Civilians with guns that rebel against government forces are no longer civilians). And what is the West doing talking about civilian casualties, what happened with air rides on civilians in Germany during ww2, in Japan, civilian massacred in Yugoslavia and so on....

Stuff like this makes my blood boil :mad:

seems like You support that own gov massacres civilians w/o reason just to 'punish' rebels in region ...

there is difference between fighting rebels and killing random civilians in protests

I don't support it, but why should I pretend to be some angel and pretend to believe in "democracy", I'm not blind; I've seen what happened in our country because of it. In some countries they hit protesters with sticks in the head, pepper spray people who just sit on the road without reason. In “some countries†where they made democracy people can barely afford to eat…

You can be damn sure that if we see protests as big as they are in Syria in America or Europe they will shoot too. We just haven’t seen it yet because there haven't been any protests that would seriously threaten the authority of the government.

Assad, the West, Chinese “communists†and the Russian mafia government are all the same, so why choose a side? If you don't give Assad the licence to kill you give it to Nato, and we've seen what Nato did on our own soil, they gave Slavic land to Albanians and watched as they tore down our churches, hundreds of years of our culture, and who ever talks about the Serbs that got massacred?

Remember that people have always been wolves to each other.

also w/o the change You would most likely never get to the west...

Do you really think I wanted to go to the West when I was 5? To leave everything I had ever known, all my friends and family and go to Canada where I didn’t know anything, to see my parents work 12 hours a day so we could afford some cheap cockroach infested apartment in degrading jobs?

My parents are educated, in the West they do the kind of jobs that are considered for low-life here.

Do you think I ever wanted to come back to our country and feel like I’m a foreigner in the city where I was born and watch our people quietly suffer, and then go back to the "west" where people call me "polish" and look at me as some second class citizen and tell me to get the hell out of their country?…

To hell with your West

in czechoslovakia you can at least protest now ...

Against what? Who gives a hell about protests right now, now I need to get out of Czechoslovakia so I can afford to buy some food. LOL

obviously You quickly forgot the 41 years of communism

Trust me I didn't, and I think a lot of people didn't

Assad, the West, Chinese “communists†and the Russian mafia government are all the same, so why choose a side? If you don't give Assad the licence to kill you give it to Nato, and we've seen what Nato did on our own soil, they gave Slavic land to Albanians and watched as they tore down our churches, hundreds of years of our culture, and who ever talks about the Serbs that got massacred?

Remember that people have always been wolves to each other.

Do you really think I wanted to go to the West when I was 5? To leave everything I had ever known, all my friends and family and go to Canada where I didn’t know anything, to see my parents work 12 hours a day so we could afford some cheap cockroach infested apartment in degrading jobs?

My parents are educated, in the West they do the kind of jobs that are considered for low-life here.

Do you think I ever wanted to come back to our country and feel like I’m a foreigner in the city where I was born and watch our people quietly suffer, and then go back to the "west" where people call me "polish" and look at me as some second class citizen and tell me to get the hell out of their country?…

Hi Martin, i feel your pain and i'm old enough (much older than you obviously) to know that things aren't black and white. But if you think there is no difference between, let's say, Assad and Cameron, go and live in Syria to see how it changes your life.

Russia and China seems to protect every tyrant on this planet because like someone else said thats how they do business in their countries(besides their economical interests of course).Also if US is backing something it's a matter of pride for them to be against it.

Between West and them I choose the lesser evil,West is far from perfect but at least we get only pepper spray and a few beatings when we protest instead of mortar rounds.

Although Martin has a good point,if people would do something like "western spring" in very large numbers I wonder how long will take them to replace those rubber rounds with real ones and calling every protester a terrorist.

Hi Martin, i feel your pain and i'm old enough (much older than you obviously) to know that things aren't black and white. But if you think there is no difference between, let's say, Assad and Cameron, go and live in Syria to see how it changes your life.

You might be surprised but not much different than if I go back to my own country. But how is this going change in Syria if they overthrow Assad, its constantly been getting worse in my country for 20 years so I doubt that it will somehow magically start to improve for them...

You might be surprised but not much different than if I go back to my own country. But how is this going change in Syria if they overthrow Assad, its constantly been getting worse in my country for 20 years so I doubt that it will somehow magically start to improve for them...

Yes of course, but at least Syrian people will have chosen its own fate, better or not. ATM, Syrian opposition doesn't want any foreign intervention, and UN resolution is only (trying to) condemning the bloodshed. But foreign intervention is already taking place in Syria : the Lebanese hezbollah is helping Assad killing his own people.

You might be surprised but not much different than if I go back to my own country. But how is this going change in Syria if they overthrow Assad, its constantly been getting worse in my country for 20 years so I doubt that it will somehow magically start to improve for them...

Well, we can sit on our lazy arses and watch it breed the next civilian killing tyrannical regime, or one of the 100 possible derivatives, or stick out hand up and say, "Not acceptable".

Just like religion, the proponents of each are either trying to convert one group, or protect their group, while condeming the other and saying they know the real truth.

Somethings don't change in 1000's of years .............

*close his door, retreats back into Australia*

7NPC47qMJVg

Gnat;2101957']Well' date=' we can sit on our lazy arses and watch it breed the next civilian killing tyrannical regime, or one of the 100 possible derivatives, or stick out hand up and say, "Not acceptable".

Just like religion, the proponents of each are either trying to convert one group, or protect their group, while condeming the other and saying they know the real truth.

Somethings don't change in 1000's of years .............

*close his door, retreats back into Australia*[/quote']

I can stick up both of my hands right now and nothing will happen (in fact I did), you can do the same, this whole forum can do the same and nothing will still happen It’s not us sitting in the UN, we are powerless to do anything, so all we can do is watch it breed the next civilian killing tyrannical regime or watch Nato join in. We just go to work and make sure the boiler keeps running.

What’s the point of arguing about this anyway.

*retreats back to o2*

... we are powerless to do anything ......

Excuse me while I say Bullshit

Gnat;2101960']Excuse me while I say Bullshit

Tell me what I can do and I will do it. That’s a promise if it can stop the bloodshed.

http://www.yourrights.org.uk/yourrights/the-right-of-peaceful-protest/

http://www.legalfish.com/TheDailyTackle/2010/07/23/how-to-protest-peacefully-and-effectively/

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nonviolent_resistance

Shit, just write a letter or email to your local member of parliment.

It all counts, it all adds up.

“Be the change that you wish to see in the world.â€

― Mahatma Gandhi

“I alone cannot change the world, but I can cast a stone across the waters to create many ripples.â€

― Mother Teresa

Shit, just write a letter or email to your local member of parliment.

I will do that then (I hope that you do it too, or did it already )

You mean like this?

*pic*

Try watching the 15 minute of footage of what happened before that. They knew what they were facing, they were telling them to leave but had them surrounded. He gave them MANY fair warnings and told them directly to leave or he'd spray. Not that I like police having end all power but that was justified. :d:

If my buds were being held by a bunch of hipsters I'd do the same.

The Syrian government has a full right to defend themselves from guerrillas (Civilians with guns that rebel against government forces are no longer civilians). And what is the West doing talking about civilian casualties, what happened with air rides on civilians in Germany during ww2, in Japan, civilian massacred in Yugoslavia and so on....

Syria is in real mess now, there's hardly anyone "right" there.

On the one hand anti-gov include not only protesters, but also good part of pissed people, who felt "it's the time" to pick up their guns and fight back. Not because they want democracy or freedom, but because their hatred for goverment got strong enough to put their lifes on line.

A the same time you have goverment forces killing people indiscriminately, armed or not, just to show them who's the boss here, simply because they have no idea how to deal with situation, and because that's how things always worked in Middle East.

The worst thing is, no matter who wins, same things will happen: Tortues, executions with or without mock process, entire towns forced out of their homes just because they did support wrong side. The ususal.

it is funny how some people here say that "Russia = evil, West = good democracy and wealth"

woow, so who supported right-wing (economical point of view) dictators in 60s, 70s ? who supported Pinochet ? who assassinated Lumumba-like ?

when "socialists" won election, who sent pay-killers ?

west intels corrupted by big corporation, banks , isn't it ?

obviously You quickly forgot the 41 years of communism

not only Martin forgot

i also haven't forgot

you know what i haven't forgot ?

- safety streets without lads, drunk people, without gangs,

- half-free holidays in mountains payed by employer of my parents (fundusz wczasów pracowniczych - workers holiday found) opposite to living in 90s without single days of holidays cause we couldn't afford (lack of money).

- people working in factories that were later privatized, destroyed and now i have "all made in China" and many graduated engineers (MSc) which cannot find job in PL later looking now for jobs to clean dishes in UK,

every bloodshed is bad, but "west" react only when there is "oil"

west leaders (know from obeying corporations, banks, look at crizis) are know from the same level of hipocricy like east

there is no "evil Russia, good US", ask people who were tortured by officers taught to tortures by CIA in South America

difference between "west" and "east" is that in one system someone shoot, in other system you die of hunger and poverty

what is better, to die in second, or to suffer being homeless for years ?

in west this violence has other face - for example "noone will give you job" or "you have to obey and work hard for 40 years bank credit for flat" etc.

shooting to people who not obey is "not good p.r. looking" but how it looks to set law the way that you are almost slave (slave for banks) ?

shooting to people looks bad, but how it looks that you have to take 40 years credit, taking 300 000 PLN to give bank 450 000 in 20 or 30 years ???

there is no slavery in capitalism ? if there is no slavery how you will call bank credits (without which you cannot afford to leave parents) ?

it is funny how some people from west countries have point of view "we are so damn good, so free, so happy and we have the right to say what is right"

cause at the same time other countries call terrorists people who "defend their own oil" or those "who do not want free market, Euro, world bank" etc.

what about Palestine ? what about Turkey and Kurds ? what about ETA ? what about Nother Ireland ? west is not clean-hands angel

what would be if pople in Poland would stand on streets to fight with liberalism, banks , capitalism ?

what?

would we be "good" or ... probably "terrorists" ???

if Poles would stand against corrupted gov, US would send jets to help us to get off corruption or... send jets against us ??

if Poles who have enough of corruption, poverty, unemployment, bribes would stand, what would you do ? hmm ???

when "someone wants to change government, cause he has enough" is different from "someone wants to change government, cause he has enough of corruption and crisis which made banksters reacher than before" ?

or "it depends if he wants world bank, corporations" ???

"guerillas fight free market and banks - baaaaaad, eviiiil, guerillas fight Russia, socialism - good" ???

when Greeks had enough of their gov. how you (west) reacted ?

now EU wants to take sovereignty from Greeks , isn't it ?

what west did against Pinochet ? what west did against Franco, Stroessner, Latin America was land of freedom and land of happiness of citizens ? CIA was helping to poor people abused by rich bank/corporations owners in 70s, 80s ?

i don't say that Syria situation is good, i don't praise Assad, but it is not like "Russia support all evil around world" , cause many people in Africa, Latin America and in Arab World can say the same about USA, UK etc.

there is no "evil is one, good are others"

i would like to see the same reaction like i saw in Lybia or Iraq against "capitalistic" dictators who make poor people suffer in other parts of our earth , but i haven't seen it

seems like for many people in west "shooting poor is good, shooting rich is bad"

what is your reaction when EU says that Greece must lost some sovereignty to decide about themselves , what is your reaction when we have to pay from our taxes for banks here ?

i earn 500 Euro in PL, why the hell my gov. forces me to pay tax for Greeks who earn 1500 ? why i have to pay tax to support German and French bank-owners who earn bilions and have private jets (at the same time they are closing schools or hospitals here, cause there is no money in budget enough to all schools and hospitals) ?

are you so blind due to pro-rich pro-corporations and pro-banks propaganda that you see "Russia as root of all evil" ??

for me bigger evil are people from this group:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bilderberg_Group

people from World Money Found etc.

they cause real suffering in globe, they cause that some have to be overworked and feel hunger, they cause that "i cannot afford something"

they make law in which "rich is untouchable"

can people fight against banks , capitalism (or at least lack of state control, which many people would like to see again, some safety mechanisms in economy to avoid of big disproportion in salaries due to olygopol or monopoly situation of one company in one region), poverty, unemployment, or not, cause it is "anti west, anti rich" ?

-----

edit:

one more about hipocrisy:

i remember radio broadcast and interview with one music critic , guy is obsessed with opera music

guy called people who not love opera "music ignorants" and he claimed that children should be forced to go to opera in schools, that TV must show more operas etc. and how it is bad that there are not enough music stations that play classic music,

so he was asked - has he ever heard Rolling Stones, rap, disco, metal

guy answered - never, i don't need it

so journalist asked him - how can you call other music ignorants if you never listened to other things then opera

guy answers - "how can you not love Maria Callas"

no comment :|

The UN was created to assure peace between countries, not in countries.

You may accept that the UN tries to assure peace in a country, but that still doesn't give the UN the right to enforce a democracy.

Nice to see that the people who hate America also think that Syria is perfectly entitled to massacre their own people. I knew something was wrong with those guys.

All this mumbo jumbo about ex USSR nostalgia is anything else than verbiage and preaching. Syrians are dying and UN security council cannot even condemn this slaughter. This makes me sick.

I don't take an opinion in this discussion, just saying the UN is insuficient and not created for these conflicts. Therefor you shouldn't be surprised it can't always solve them.

This isn't about support for an ally (though I suspect they wouldn't appreciate not being able to act as the main arms supplier anymore), it's first and foremost out of fear that the freedom movements in their own countries will lessen the grip of the current regimes. Better Syria than Russia or China in their opinion, but even better if their own citizens have no example to follow at all. They went ahead with Libya, and underestimated the example it would set for people in similar societies, which is why they are doing their best to stop it now, by vetoing every shred of condemnation and by continuing to deliver weapons for crowd control (tanks, aircraft, artillery, the most logical weapons for fighting people armed with picket signs, bullhorns and a few rocks). Whether or not these countries should be democratic (often mistaken to be the same as "liberal capitalist, strict separation between religion and the state" by people that haven't lived in a democracy, or haven't ventured out of their immigrant sub-culture enough to know) isn't the issue, the choice being taken away from them by mass murdering dictators like Saddam, Khadaffi and Assad is. If they want to live in a capitalist, socialist, communist, absolute monarchy or theocratic society that should be their own choice, not that of a small group. It's not about democracy, it's about much more basic principles of freedom.

It's astonishing to me that people would grab any weapon they can get their hands on to defend themselves if their government answers protests with tanks and death squads ... :rolleyes:

That soldiers won't blindly obey orders to kill mainly unarmed people that could just as easily be their family members but rather join their cause, unbelievable ... :rolleyes:

Yes, that was sarcasm.