Observations and disagreements with recent command changes

Driver are no commanders, and it's nothign wrong with the game going back into right direcation again. and it is very acceptable as it is now since it affects all...includingn A.I. If you stick to RL procedures life as a tanker in arma is even better now...you will not be shot at from other tanks that are not even rendered and you cant be targeted through smoke anymore,

There we go, finally showing your true colours.

YOUR personal opinion is that how I like to play the game is wrong and so is anyone else who likes to make life easier and less frustrating when working with the AI in a vehicle. The way we have always done since OFP. And what is the right direction anyway may I ask? How can you possibly know what way BIS want the game to go? My guess is they are pretty close to it after 10 years wouldn't you think?

If these tools BIS gave us to help work with the AI are causing problems with PVP game play then fix it. But, don't beak fundamental mechanics used by lots of other players that work perfectly well.

There must be other alternatives, but this is not it. If it takes a bit longer to work it out...fine. But don't cripple the useful features that many use to full fill your dogmatic quest of forcing anally retentive realism on everyone.

This is the difference; I am willing to accept changes and understand that others like to play the game differently to the way I do. I will make reports and give feed back though when these changes negatively affect how I play the game. But you and your ilk don't give a damn about anyone else, you some how get the "warm fuzzies" by making everyone else suffer with your quest to make the game be played how you want. How about a little empathy to other users? why is it always your way or the highway attitude? Would you not be happy if we could fix these exploits and allow me and my type continue to play the game how we wish, and as we have done up to now?

Am I not being reasonable here? How about you guys show some of the same?

-=seany=- its not the drivers duty to do the job of the tank commander (or even platoon leader or general). OFP/Arma are not some of those popcorn wargames with instant gratification or achievements.

The driver moves, positions, and stops the tank. While driving, he constantly searches for covered routes and for covered positions to which he can move if the tank is engaged. He maintains his tank's position in formation and watches for visual signals. The driver selects the best tactical route. During engagements, he assists the gunner and TC by scanning for targets and sensing fired rounds. The driver is responsible to the TC for the automotive maintenance and refueling of the tank. He assists other crewmen as needed.

The gunner searches for targets and aims and fires both the main gun and the coaxial machine gun. He is responsible to the TC for the maintenance of the tank's armament and fire control equipment. The gunner serves as the assistant TC and assumes the responsibilities of the TC as required. He also assists other crewmembers as needed. Several of his duties involve the tank's communications and internal control systems: logging onto and monitoring communications nets; maintaining digital links; inputting graphic control measures on digital overlays; and monitoring digital displays during the planning and preparation phases of an operation.

The TC is responsible to the tank platoon leader for the reporting of logistical needs and the tactical employment of his tank. He briefs his crew, directs the movement of the tank, submits all reports, and supervises initial first-aid treatment and evacuation of wounded crewmen. He is an expert in using the tank's weapon systems, requesting indirect fires, and executing land navigation.

Driver are no commanders, and it's nothign wrong with the game going back into right direcation again. and it is very acceptable as it is now since it affects all...includingn A.I. If you stick to RL procedures life as a tanker in arma is even better now...you will not be shot at from other tanks that are not even rendered and you cant be targeted through smoke anymore,

Funny, you play Warfare missions....THATS so realistic...:confused:

And you can be targeted with FILR thru smoke. :j:

Anywhere, anytime the Human Player is in command of AI, he should have full control.

If you keep getting your ass handed to you by some dickhead using AI and the "LOCK" function,( dare I say it) MAKE A MOD to add to your server and stop that. Dont nerf the AI, Nerf your self and your opponent. This whole "lock" issue is really only a problem with 1% of the actual players of the game. It should be adjustable by a server setting.

And just on a personal note, I never use the lock feature, and have my personal difficulty settings set high to never hear or see any lame help aids, that only kill the immersion.

But still anywhere, anytime the Human Player is in command of AI, he should have full control.

As a player I want to be in total command of my tank - I don't CARE what position I am in.

-=seany=- its not the drivers duty to do the job of the tank commander (or even platoon leader or general). OFP/Arma are not some of those popcorn wargames with instant gratification or achievements.

Maybe you should ask for better AI pathfinding, AI situational awereness, AI communication and AI following order? Workarounds are just temporarily features until they are not needed anymore. One workaround is to switch quickly into a crew seat to help AI doing what they supposed to do.

Are you trying to wind me up or start a flame war?

Why are you insulting me by explaining how real life tank crews operate? Do you think I am stupid?

You know exactly why I switch to the drivers seat to command, beacuse the AI arn't and never will be as good as a human at tactics/ ambush/ conserving ammo/ prioritising targets/ moving into hull down positions/ making speedy movements to avoid hits or detection etc etc etc. I don't need to ask for impossible fixes like; "better AI pathfinding, AI situational awereness, AI communication and AI following order" because BIS gave us the tools to circumvent this in the very first release and it works flawlessly.

Why does it matter to you how others play the game Offline or coop or in the campaign? You guys are fooling your selves by believing your some ultra realism gamers by making all these unintuitive changes to how the game works. You want that kind of realism? play a real SIM; Steel beasts...DSC A10...etc etc that's what I do when I want ultra realism.

And yet again I'm not saying these changes cant be implemented to make PVP more fun, but I want the current mechanics to be left as they are when using ai in Coop etc.

Why are you so against this? Cant you realise other players enjoy the way the game has been for 10 years and don't want it changed to please a small number of players.

OFP/Arma are not some of those popcorn wargames with instant gratification or achievements.

Where are you coming from with stupid statements like this? Your saying that for all these years Operation Flashpoint and it's sequels (the most realistic open ended shooter on the pc) are now suddenly "popcorn wargames with instant gratification" because there is some thing that has been in the game for 10years that you now don't like... So...up to now your saying OFP etc have basically been no better than Cod or BF....and only with this change will it be actually realistic?

Do you even think about what your writing?

I cant see, why a side effect of a bug fix - which is obviously a degredation in the matter of gameplay - should be a "feature". This "realism argument" is complete nonsense...

-=seany=- sorry, if I hurt you feelings with facts and suggestion.

Carry on with ranting and crying...

@norailgunner

Sorry,

But radar was present on arma 2 ,you just needed to switch to commander's seat.

Certainly it was different,but the effect was there ...

I posted a compromise on the CIT.

https://dev-heaven.net/issues/27915

This change also nulifies the "effectivecommander" command (sort of). It returns the player as the effectivecommander when he is in the driver seat, even though he can't command the tank.

It gives a choice to the player at whether you play hard-core or casual. I have been gaming the series since OFP and as I get older, I have less time for the assembly, squad SOP instructions, and the patrol order. I believe those that want the hardcore will only game on the hardcore servers and those that don't, will do so on the casual servers. I promise, I will not play on your server if I don't like your gaming selection options, so no harm done as I would disconnect. I don't believe that imposing any player preferences benefits anyone when a choice can be made as in this matter. Why should "effectivecommander" bother anyone, not on my selected server, if I am not gaming with them?

-=seany=- sorry, if I hurt you feelings with facts and suggestion.

Carry on with ranting and crying...

My feelings are not hurt. Why don't you answer some of my points I made/asked? A reply like that really suggests that you have no more valid reasons to counter the legitimate objections (ahem.. "ranting and crying") I made about this feature change?

I really am curious as too why players who like the level of realism you do want to force me to change the way I have been playing the game for 10 years :confused:

Thank you Gremlin for putting forward a compromise to the problem.

I too am happy to have a feature change like this implemented as a difficulty setting. Making it a hard coded default setting is a bit much.

One very ironic thing about this change is that it will most likely cause me to play them game in a less realistic manner than I ever have. It will be so annoying to do anything in a vehicle with AI that I will simply kick them out and go solo in the tank, swapping seats as needed....hows that for realism! I can see many others doing the same.

Does anyone know what beta patch implemented this? I'll probably just use the previous version until Arma3 comes out.

Does anyone know what beta patch implemented this? I'll probably just use the previous version until Arma3 comes out.

There have only been 10 betas since patch 1.60, so it shouldn't be too hard to figure out.

Best vote these two:

Feature #27922: Allow player group leader to switch to "manual fire" as vehicle/tank driver

Bug #27677: AI gunner ignores group leader 'hold fire' order, if player is driver or in cargo or not inside the tank.

It is not broken. The player is still effectiveCommander in the driver position.

You "only" cannot issue the commands "fire/ease fire" as driver.

Ontopic: If you order "cease fire" as commander and switch to driver,

both commander and gunner respect the command even when you are driver.

Best vote these two:

Feature #27922: Allow player group leader to switch to "manual fire" as vehicle/tank driver

Bug #27677: AI gunner ignores group leader 'hold fire' order, if player is driver or in cargo or not inside the tank.

Best compromise I have seen so far. Voted green.

Ontopic: If you order "cease fire" as commander and switch to driver,

both commander and gunner respect the command even when you are driver.

If that's true, then the problem of AI going "berzerk" when the player switches to the drivers seat can at least be worked around until CIT issue #27677 is fixed.

AI is not going berserk. The AI gunner only engages targets automatically now (by default).

You can order him to stop do so by "cease fire" as tank/vehicle commander or "hold fire" as group leader (except the bug for this one).

One could argue the default should be different, but I can see no good reason for that.

This is bad and sad news Suma. :(

The change made the game actually MORE playable.

You no longer had to babysit the AI gunner for everything.

As player commanding/driving a tank is no fun experience exactly because of that.

Any AI tank or player only tank easily wastes a player commander tank/gunner.

In 1.60/without this key fix, it makes more sense to leave the tank and let the AI act

the tank on its own - see also https://dev-heaven.net/issues/15293#note-12.

Of course one should retain control over a tank as group leader no matter the position.

However fixing and improving that would be the way to go. See:

http://forums.bistudio.com/showpost.php?p=2091635&postcount=40

This is a terrible sign to see whine and frenzy win over good arguments and people

actually providing good CIT tickets..

Did you read the full thread or only the topic starters whine?

---------- Post added at 10:25 ---------- Previous post was at 10:16 ----------

With commanding and AI implemented properly, the player should rarely need to switch to the drivers seat anyway.

Sadly and realistically this will take a long time to get there.

To replicate intelligent movement by player is not an easy task.

An interface to allow really good movement order handling is not easy either.

Right now the AI cannot even move continuously in one direction if there is a

little distraction like trees, bushes, buildings or even animals.

Also the delay and snap back when you order turn commands is very

annoying and makes an AI driver hardly acceptable.

Before the fix the actual way people use tanks is to drive the tank itself,

press tab lock every second, halt on contact, switch to gunner and do the

aiming and firing itself too.

Or get out of the tank and let the AI handle it altogether.

Not commanding the tank (gunner/driver) from the commander seat.

Is this really the way to go?

I am not accepting the change, I am just letting the community to test it and provide a feedback, which is a purpose of the beta patches.

I agree with you a change like this should not be done at this stage, as it is too dramatic and would require a lot more AI fixes and tuning to get the game into a reasonable and well playable state. The build 88215 reduces the "effective observer" fix to the situation of a player being in the vehicle cargo, and no longer applies to gunner or driver seats.

That said, I would still recommend to report any AI issues on CIT which prevent you to play without commanding from a driver position, as I think such approach would be more in line with the long term product vision, and if such issues would ever be fixed, I would like to see the driver to be deprived of the commanding possibilities. With commanding and AI implemented properly, the player should rarely need to switch to the drivers seat anyway.

Well, this is bad news. The changes made tank warfare enjoyable for the first time in OA. Without them it is back to infantry only. You really should consider kjus compromise feature ticket about manual fire in the driver's position. That would help both sides.

Well, this is bad news. The changes made tank warfare enjoyable for the first time in OA. Without them it is back to infantry only. You really should consider kjus compromise feature ticket about manual fire in the driver's position. That would help both sides.

it did not mande tank warfare enjoyable it made it a farce. it made it just another magic tab and can't miss feature while scooting at 130Km/h downhill. thats why player wnt to drive because they can operate a vehicle at insane speeds the A.I. would never use.

What, are you serious? TAB lock wasn't even possible from the driver's position ...