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nightsta1ker

Flight dynamics (important issues)

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you can change it yourself ;):

1.backup the original file first!!

2.unpack the air_us_h.pbo file located in the folder addons with Extractpbo (put dpbo.dll in the same folder)

3.in the extracted folder go to air_us_h > h_sim > air_us_h the last sub-folder is the folder you need repack to create the new air_us_h.pbo file (i do it with cpbo)

4.in this folder you have the 3 more sub folders medium, heavy and light into each folder you have a .xml file ej: Light-GenHeli600-DesktopSim.xml this is the config file to the light i edit this file with the notepad

5.repack and test (repack the sulfolder air_us_h> h_sim > air_us_h instead the entire extracted folder)

note: locate the tools folder in the desktop and run as administrator (win 7 and vista)

personally i've found the default ( ib= 1200 ) too low in the medium, with 1800 ~ 2200 improve the control authority and almost cancel the roll tendency with collective input due to the tail rotor high position, set the yaw control damper to 0 ~ 0.5 to get yaw torque effect

that sounds interesting, can you play on multiplayer without the game noticing you've made changes to the game files? if so can you upload it so we can test it?

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Patch 1 has nothing to do with the flight modeling. I think that is scheduled for patch 2 depending on the difficulty involved.

I know that Patch1 has no FM changes. I thought you would hold for the review regardless...

So will you review current version or waiting for Patch2?

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you can change it yourself ;):

1.backup the original file first!!

2.unpack the air_us_h.pbo file located in the folder addons with Extractpbo (put dpbo.dll in the same folder)

3.in the extracted folder go to air_us_h > h_sim > air_us_h the last sub-folder is the folder you need repack to create the new air_us_h.pbo file (i do it with cpbo)

4.in this folder you have the 3 more sub folders medium, heavy and light into each folder you have a .xml file ej: Light-GenHeli600-DesktopSim.xml this is the config file to the light i edit this file with the notepad

5.repack and test (repack the sulfolder air_us_h> h_sim > air_us_h instead the entire extracted folder)

note: locate the tools folder in the desktop and run as administrator (win 7 and vista)

personally i've found the default ( ib= 1200 ) too low in the medium, with 1800 ~ 2200 improve the control authority and almost cancel the roll tendency with collective input due to the tail rotor high position, set the yaw control damper to 0 ~ 0.5 to get yaw torque effect

I have been relatively successful at modding flight dynamics in FSX. I will give this a shot. If I can make the models feel right, I will post them on the net somewhere for other users. The thing I don't understand is... If it's that easy to fix, why has this not been done already?

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i could never get the CP to work with moded Light-GenHeli600-DesktopSim.xml or repacked .pbo etc etc.

But that may just have been the CP, i am still downloading tkoh as just got broadband back today :).

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hmmm i'm looking at the xml and i have no experience programming stuff. what is the relationship between the numbers that are next to each other?

		  <GroundEffect startDistance="1.6" strength="0.0"/>
		  <LiftCurve>
			  -1000  0
			  -180   0
			  -150   0.61
			  -140   0.69
			  -130   0.69
			  -120   0.61
			  -110   0.46
			  -100   0.24
			  -90    0

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hmmm i'm looking at the xml and i have no experience programming stuff. what is the relationship between the numbers that are next to each other?

		  <GroundEffect startDistance="1.6" strength="0.0"/>
		  <LiftCurve>
			  -1000  0
			  -180   0
			  -150   0.61
			  -140   0.69
			  -130   0.69
			  -120   0.61
			  -110   0.46
			  -100   0.24
			  -90    0

With this stuff, sometimes the only way to find out is to change some things, then test it to see what changed. I have spent many many hours making .cfg edits in FSX helicopters, then testing it, then making more changes, etc. It can be very time consuming and tedious.

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that is the lift coefficient vs angle of attack and the lower list is drag vs angle of attack , nightsta1ker you are right when you say this is a tedious work :o

my light.xml file in the spoiler (work in progress):

<!--

REFERENCES

[1] Technical Description.pdf

[2] Wikipedia

[3] Field manual

[4] Technical manual

[5] Blueprints

-->

<?xml version="1.0"?>

<GenHeli600 version="1.0">

<!-- Estimation

Calculated after the ration R_mass = (empty weight of dauphin) / (empty weight of MD500) ratio = (2271)/(722) = 3.1454293629.

Ixx = 11000/R_Mass = 3497

Iyy = 2704/R_Mass = 859

Ixx = 9900/R_Mass = 3147

-->

<MomentsOfInertia Ixx="3497" Iyy="859" Izz="3147"/>

<!--[2]

Empty Weight=722 kg

Max Takeoff Weight=1610 kg

Any value between empty weight and max takeoff weight is valid.

-->

<Mass mass="722"/>

<Fuselage rotationalResistance="100" >

<MainRotorDownwash scale="0.5">

<Low_a1 a1 ="-6">

0 1.4958

10.0000 1.4955

20.0000 1.4939

30.0000 1.4881

40.0000 1.4694

50.0000 1.4149

60.0000 1.2801

70.0000 1.0072

80.0000 0.5652

90.0000 0.0000

</Low_a1>

<Medium_a1 a1 ="0" scale="0.5">

0 1.4958

10.0000 1.4955

20.0000 1.4939

30.0000 1.4881

40.0000 1.4694

50.0000 1.4149

60.0000 1.2801

70.0000 1.0072

80.0000 0.5652

90.0000 0.0000

</Medium_a1>

<High_a1 a1 ="6" scale="0.5">

0 1.4958

10.0000 1.4955

20.0000 1.4939

30.0000 1.4881

40.0000 1.4694

50.0000 1.4149

60.0000 1.2801

70.0000 1.0072

80.0000 0.5652

90.0000 0.0000

</High_a1>

</MainRotorDownwash>

<MainRotorInplanewash scale="0.5">

<Low_a1 a1 ="-6">

0 0.1124

10.0000 0.1125

20.0000 0.1127

30.0000 0.1138

40.0000 0.1176

50.0000 0.1333

60.0000 0.2000

70.0000 0.4472

80.0000 1.0415

90.0000 1.5000

</Low_a1>

<Medium_a1 a1 ="0" scale="0.5">

0 0.1124

10.0000 0.1125

20.0000 0.1127

30.0000 0.1138

40.0000 0.1176

50.0000 0.1333

60.0000 0.2000

70.0000 0.4472

80.0000 1.0415

90.0000 1.5000

</Medium_a1>

<High_a1 a1 ="6" scale="0.5">

0 0.1124

10.0000 0.1125

20.0000 0.1127

30.0000 0.1138

40.0000 0.1176

50.0000 0.1333

60.0000 0.2000

70.0000 0.4472

80.0000 1.0415

90.0000 1.5000

</High_a1>

</MainRotorInplanewash>

<LiftDueToAoA scale="0.1">

-180.0000 -0.0001

-170.0000 0.4658

-160.0000 0.9087

-150.0000 2.7566

-140.0000 4.1489

-130.0000 4.9260

-120.0000 4.9619

-110.0000 3.3846

-100.0000 1.7154

-90.0000 -0.0005

-80.0000 -1.7144

-70.0000 -3.3820

-60.0000 -4.9578

-50.0000 -4.9208

-40.0000 -4.1432

-30.0000 -2.7511

-20.0000 -0.5829

-18.0000 -0.5107

-16.0000 -0.4336

-14.0000 -0.3544

-12.0000 -0.2757

-10.0000 -0.1996

-8.0000 -0.1278

-6.0000 -0.0620

-4.0000 -0.0034

-2.0000 0.0474

0 0.0898

2.0000 0.1237

4.0000 0.1492

6.0000 0.1671

8.0000 0.1781

10.0000 0.1835

12.0000 0.1848

14.0000 0.1839

16.0000 0.1829

18.0000 0.1843

20.0000 0.1907

30.0000 -0.0001

40.0000 0.4658

50.0000 0.9087

60.0000 2.7566

70.0000 4.1489

80.0000 4.9260

90.0000 4.9619

100.0000 3.3846

110.0000 1.7154

120.0000 -0.0005

130.0000 -1.7144

140.0000 -3.3820

150.0000 -4.9578

160.0000 -4.9208

170.0000 -4.1432

180.0000 -2.7511

</LiftDueToAoA>

<SideForceDueToSideslip scale="0.1">

-180.0000 0

-171.4977 0.3326

-154.4931 0.8516

-130.4378 1.4803

-100.5760 1.9598

-79.4240 2.0621

-63.6636 2.0724

-48.7327 2.0314

-30.4839 1.7361

-20.0000 1.3702

-18.0000 1.2471

-16.0000 1.1193

-14.0000 0.9873

-12.0000 0.8515

-10.0000 0.7125

-8.0000 0.5708

-6.0000 0.4269

-4.0000 0.2815

-2.0000 0.1349

0 -0.0121

2.0000 -0.1592

4.0000 -0.3057

6.0000 -0.4511

8.0000 -0.5949

10.0000 -0.7365

12.0000 -0.8755

14.0000 -1.0111

16.0000 -1.1431

18.0000 -1.2708

20.0000 -1.3937

30.4839 -1.7361

48.7327 -2.0314

63.6636 -2.0724

79.4240 -2.0621

100.5760 -1.9598

130.4378 -1.4803

154.4931 -0.8516

171.4977 -0.3326

180.0000 0

</SideForceDueToSideslip>

<DragDueToAoA scale="0.1">

-180.0000 0.8000

-170.0000 0.8133

-160.0000 1.0119

-150.0000 2.2253

-140.0000 4.0787

-130.0000 6.4404

-120.0000 9.1441

-110.0000 9.8355

-100.0000 10.2580

-90.0000 10.4000

-80.0000 10.2581

-70.0000 9.8365

-60.0000 9.1465

-50.0000 6.4448

-40.0000 4.0856

-30.0000 2.2349

-20.0000 1.3727

-18.0000 1.2424

-16.0000 1.1396

-14.0000 1.0621

-12.0000 1.0077

-10.0000 0.9740

-8.0000 0.9582

-6.0000 0.9578

-4.0000 0.9700

-2.0000 0.9918

0 1.0203

2.0000 1.0528

4.0000 1.0862

6.0000 1.1179

8.0000 1.1450

10.0000 1.1650

12.0000 1.1754

14.0000 1.1739

16.0000 1.1583

18.0000 1.1268

20.0000 1.0776

30.0000 0.8000

40.0000 0.8133

50.0000 1.0119

60.0000 2.2253

70.0000 4.0787

80.0000 6.4404

90.0000 9.1441

100.0000 9.8355

110.0000 10.2580

120.0000 10.4000

130.0000 10.2581

140.0000 9.8365

150.0000 9.1465

160.0000 6.4448

170.0000 4.0856

180.0000 2.2349

</DragDueToAoA>

<PitchingMomentDueToAoA scale="0.1" >

-180.0000 -7.9390

-170.7661 -7.7714

-162.7016 -6.7996

-158.2661 -5.7272

-138.5081 6.8733

-130.4435 10.3251

-126.0081 11.0958

-118.7500 11.5315

-109.4758 11.7661

-99.7984 11.5315

-94.5565 10.8613

-65.5242 -6.6655

-60.0000 -7.7275

-51.8145 -8.2071

-39.7177 -8.3412

-30.8468 -8.1401

-20.0000 -7.7275

-18.0000 -7.3963

-16.0000 -7.0066

-14.0000 -6.5610

-12.0000 -6.0621

-10.0000 -5.5124

-8.0000 -4.9147

-6.0000 -4.2714

-4.0000 -3.5852

-2.0000 -2.8587

0 -2.0944

2.0000 -1.2951

4.0000 -0.4632

6.0000 0.3986

8.0000 1.2877

10.0000 2.2016

12.0000 3.1376

14.0000 4.0931

16.0000 5.0655

18.0000 6.0522

20.0000 7.0507

23.9919 8.5824

31.2500 9.8559

42.9435 11.0958

56.2500 11.4645

70.7661 11.6320

85.2823 11.5650

102.6210 11.0288

116.7339 9.8224

126.8145 7.9792

141.3306 4.4269

150.6048 1.3773

157.8629 -1.3036

163.1048 -3.6830

168.7500 -6.5650

172.3790 -7.6709

180.0000 -7.9390

</PitchingMomentDueToAoA>

<YawingMomentDueToSideslip scale="0.1" >

-180.0000 0

-170.0000 -4.0856

-159.9496 -6.8499

-145.2520 -9.5845

-133.8206 -9.8794

-123.1149 -9.6113

-111.8649 -7.9491

-100.2520 -4.8291

-88.9631 -1.1184

-78.5945 2.1930

-66.5668 5.0658

-53.8004 7.5302

-45.0907 8.9779

-38.7788 9.1447

-32.1429 8.7500

-25.5069 7.5029

-20.0000 6.1514

-18.0000 5.5362

-16.0000 4.9211

-14.0000 4.3060

-12.0000 3.6908

-10.0000 3.0757

-8.0000 2.4606

-6.0000 1.8454

-4.0000 1.2303

-2.0000 0.6151

0 0

2.0000 -0.6151

4.0000 -1.2303

6.0000 -1.8454

8.0000 -2.4606

10.0000 -3.0757

12.0000 -3.6908

14.0000 -4.3060

16.0000 -4.9211

18.0000 -5.5362

20.0000 -6.1514

25.5069 -7.5029

32.1429 -8.7500

38.7788 -9.1447

45.0907 -8.9779

53.8004 -7.5302

66.5668 -5.0658

78.5945 -2.1930

88.9631 1.1184

100.2520 4.8291

111.8649 7.9491

123.1149 9.6113

133.8206 9.8794

145.2520 9.5845

159.9496 6.8499

170.0000 4.0856

180.0000 0

</YawingMomentDueToSideslip>

</Fuselage>

<Engines>

<Engine type="ConstantRPMEngine">

<DebugInfo printDebugInfo="false" />

<General inertia="6" />

<Performance maxPower="375" maxTorque="1000" rotationResistance="0.000000009"/>

<ControllerParams P="0.5" I="1.5" D="0.0" offset="150" targetRPM="5000" />

</Engine>

</Engines>

<DriveTrains>

<DriveTrain type="GenericDriveTrain">

<GearBox gearRatios="1" reverseGearRatio="1" />

<Clutch maxClutchTorque="5000" />

<Engine index="0" />

<Load name="MainRotor" gearRatio="10.0" />

<Load name="TailRotor" gearRatio="1.739" />

</DriveTrain>

</DriveTrains>

<ControlSystem>

<FCSComponent type="FCSAutoHoverTOH">

<YawController P="0.0" D="0"/>

<PitchController P="0.15" D="0.05"/>

<RollController P="0.15" D="0.05"/>

</FCSComponent>

<FCSComponent type="FCSHelicopterAutoTrim100" >

<YawRateAndSideslipController printDebugInfo="false">

<YawRatePID P="0.18" I="0.02" D="0.0" offset="0.0" integralMin="-50" integralMax="50" />

<SideslipPID P="0.1" I="0.02" D="0.002" offset="0.0" integralMin="-50" integralMax="50" />

<Transition speedLow="10" speedHigh="20" />

<Maximums maxYawRate="30" maxSideslip="30" />

<InputMapping nonlinearity="1" />

</YawRateAndSideslipController>

<PitchRateController printDebugInfo="false">

<PID P="0.02" I="0.04" D="0.001" offset="0.0" integralMin="-25" integralMax="25" />

<MaxPitchRate maxPitchRate="35" />

<InputMapping nonlinearity="1.5" />

</PitchRateController>

<RollRateController printDebugInfo="false">

<PID P="0.02" I="0.04" D="0.001" offset="0.0" integralMin="-25" integralMax="25" />

<MaxRollRate maxRollRate="70" />

<InputMapping nonlinearity="1.5" />

</RollRateController>

</FCSComponent>

<FCSComponent type="FCSRotationDamper">

<YawController P="0" D="0"/>

<PitchController P="0.0" D="0"/>

<RollController P="0.0" D="0.00"/>

</FCSComponent>

</ControlSystem>

<Rotors>

<Rotor type="FGRotorBladeElementTheory">

<ModelConfiguration updateSubstepCount="360" />

<InfoPrint printControlInputs="false" printFlappingInfo="false" printOmega="false" />

<Geometry>

<Position x="0.0" y="0.260" z="0.8720" />

<Tilt lateralTilt="0.0" longitudinalTilt="0" />

<Blades radius="4.165" chord="0.171" count="5" hingeOffset="0.128" flappingHingeLowerLimit="-5" flappingHingeHigherLimit="10" />

<Rotation clockwise="false" />

</Geometry>

<MechanicalFeatures Ir="155" Ib="200" maxBrakeTorque="500" />

<AerodynamicFeatures>

<DesignRPM rpm="503"/>

<Blades twist="-7">

<LiftCoefficient>

0 0.4 0.6 0.8 1.0 5.0

-180 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0

-176 0.5133 0.5133 0.5133 0.5133 0.5133 0.5133

-168 0.725 0.725 0.725 0.725 0.725 0.725

-160 0.665 0.665 0.665 0.665 0.665 0.665

-152 0.875 0.875 0.875 0.875 0.875 0.875

-144 0.8525 0.8525 0.8525 0.8525 0.8525 0.8525

-136 0.7225 0.7225 0.7225 0.7225 0.7225 0.7225

-128 0.5925 0.5925 0.5925 0.5925 0.5925 0.5925

-120 0.4625 0.4625 0.4625 0.4625 0.4625 0.4625

-112 0.3325 0.3325 0.3325 0.3325 0.3325 0.3325

-104 0.2025 0.2025 0.2025 0.2025 0.2025 0.2025

-96 0.0725 0.0725 0.0725 0.0725 0.0725 0.0725

-88 -0.0575 -0.0575 -0.0575 -0.0575 -0.0575 -0.0575

-80 -0.1875 -0.1875 -0.1875 -0.1875 -0.1875 -0.1875

-72 -0.3175 -0.3175 -0.3175 -0.3175 -0.3175 -0.3175

-64 -0.4475 -0.4475 -0.4475 -0.4475 -0.4475 -0.4475

-56 -0.5775 -0.5775 -0.5775 -0.5775 -0.5775 -0.5775

-48 -0.7075 -0.7075 -0.7075 -0.7075 -0.7075 -0.7075

-40 -0.8375 -0.8375 -0.8375 -0.8375 -0.8375 -0.8375

-32 -0.9675 -0.9675 -0.9675 -0.9675 -0.9675 -0.9675

-28 -0.996 -0.955 -0.946 -0.93 -0.918 -0.918

-24 -0.988 -0.962 -0.938 -0.89 -0.854 -0.854

-20 -0.98 -0.966 -0.93 -0.85 -0.79 -0.79

-16 -0.982 -0.970 -0.922 -0.81 -0.726 -0.726

-12 -0.95 -1.235 -0.66 -0.79 -0.662 -0.662

-8 -0.89 -0.8 -0.55 -0.75 -0.62 -0.62

-4 -0.46 -0.46 -0.47 -0.47 -0.425 -0.425

0 0.00 0.05 0.075 0.08 -0.05 -0.05

4 0.46 0.510 0.613 0.56 0.45 0.45

8 0.89 0.98 0.915 0.810 0.8 0.8

12 1.25 1.23 1.0 0.845 0.865 0.865

16 0.98 0.96 1.08 0.86 0.895 0.895

20 0.9856 0.9714 1.053 0.9 0.925 0.925

24 0.9912 0.9828 1.031 0.94 0.955 0.955

28 0.997 0.9942 1.01 0.98 0.985 0.985

32 0.9675 0.9675 0.9675 0.9675 0.9675 0.9675

40 0.8375 0.8375 0.8375 0.8375 0.8375 0.8375

48 0.7075 0.7075 0.7075 0.7075 0.7075 0.7075

56 0.5775 0.5775 0.5775 0.5775 0.5775 0.5775

64 0.4475 0.4475 0.4475 0.4475 0.4475 0.4475

72 0.3175 0.3175 0.3175 0.3175 0.3175 0.3175

80 0.1875 0.1875 0.1875 0.1875 0.1875 0.1875

88 0.0575 0.0575 0.0575 0.0575 0.0575 0.0575

96 -0.0725 -0.0725 -0.0725 -0.0725 -0.0725 -0.0725

104 -0.2025 -0.2025 -0.2025 -0.2025 -0.2025 -0.2025

112 -0.3325 -0.3325 -0.3325 -0.3325 -0.3325 -0.3325

120 -0.4625 -0.4625 -0.4625 -0.4625 -0.4625 -0.4625

128 -0.5925 -0.5925 -0.5925 -0.5925 -0.5925 -0.5925

136 -0.7225 -0.7225 -0.7225 -0.7225 -0.7225 -0.7225

144 -0.8525 -0.8525 -0.8525 -0.8525 -0.8525 -0.8525

152 -0.875 -0.875 -0.875 -0.875 -0.875 -0.875

160 -0.665 -0.665 -0.665 -0.665 -0.665 -0.665

168 -0.725 -0.725 -0.725 -0.725 -0.725 -0.725

176 -0.5133 -0.5133 -0.5133 -0.5133 -0.5133 -0.5133

180 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0

</LiftCoefficient>

<DragCoefficient >

0.0 0.4 0.6 0.8 1.0 5.0

-180 0 0 0 0 0 0

-176 0.733 0.733 0.733 0.733 0.733 0.733

-168 0.995 0.995 0.995 0.995 0.995 0.995

-160 0.84 0.84 0.84 0.84 0.84 0.84

-152 0.68 0.68 0.68 0.68 0.68 0.68

-144 0.7825 0.7825 0.7825 0.7825 0.7825 0.7825

-136 0.9762 0.9762 0.9762 0.9762 0.9762 0.9762

-128 1.1712 1.1712 1.1712 1.1712 1.1712 1.1712

-120 1.3662 1.3662 1.3662 1.3662 1.3662 1.3662

-112 1.561 1.561 1.561 1.561 1.561 1.561

-104 1.76 1.76 1.76 1.76 1.76 1.76

-96 1.952 1.952 1.952 1.952 1.952 1.952

-88 2.079 2.079 2.079 2.079 2.079 2.079

-80 2.086 2.086 2.086 2.086 2.086 2.086

-72 2.005 2.005 2.005 2.005 2.005 2.005

-64 1.826 1.826 1.826 1.826 1.826 1.826

-56 1.554 1.554 1.554 1.554 1.554 1.554

-48 1.262 1.262 1.262 1.262 1.262 1.262

-40 0.9725 0.9725 0.9725 0.9725 0.9725 0.9725

-32 0.6975 0.6975 0.6975 0.6975 0.6975 0.6975

-28 0.562 0.57 0.578 0.593 0.601 0.601

-24 0.417 0.448 0.469 0.52 0.543 0.543

-20 0.267 0.33 0.361 0.44 0.486 0.486

-16 0.12 0.208 0.285 0.364 0.428 0.428

-12 0.018 0.022 0.191 0.29 0.37 0.37

-8 0.008 0.009 0.07 0.16 0.248 0.248

-4 0.0055 0.008 0.0125 0.065 0.152 0.152

0 0.0035 0.008 0.008 0.017 0.09 0.09

4 0.0055 0.0085 0.011 0.09 0.1525 0.1525

8 0.008 0.014 0.073 0.17 0.249 0.249

12 0.018 0.028 0.179 0.285 0.37 0.37

16 0.12 0.13 0.283 0.361 0.428 0.428

20 0.265 0.345 0.358 0.435 0.486 0.486

24 0.455 0.455 0.467 0.508 0.543 0.543

28 0.56 0.56 0.576 0.583 0.601 0.601

32 0.6975 0.6975 0.6975 0.6975 0.6975 0.6975

40 0.9725 0.9725 0.9725 0.9725 0.9725 0.9725

48 1.2625 1.2625 1.2625 1.2625 1.2625 1.2625

56 1.554 1.554 1.554 1.554 1.554 1.554

64 1.826 1.826 1.826 1.826 1.826 1.826

72 2.005 2.005 2.005 2.005 2.005 2.005

80 2.086 2.086 2.086 2.086 2.086 2.086

88 2.079 2.079 2.079 2.079 2.079 2.079

96 1.9525 1.9525 1.9525 1.9525 1.9525 1.9525

104 1.76 1.76 1.76 1.76 1.76 1.76

112 1.5612 1.5612 1.5612 1.5612 1.5612 1.5612

120 1.366 1.366 1.366 1.366 1.366 1.366

128 1.171 1.171 1.171 1.171 1.171 1.171

136 0.976 0.976 0.976 0.976 0.976 0.976

144 0.7825 0.7825 0.7825 0.7825 0.7825 0.7825

152 0.68 0.68 0.68 0.68 0.68 0.68

160 0.84 0.84 0.84 0.84 0.84 0.84

168 0.996 0.996 0.996 0.996 0.996 0.996

176 0.733 0.733 0.733 0.733 0.733 0.733

180 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0

</DragCoefficient>

</Blades>

<Controls A1UL="5.5" A1LL="-5.5" B1UL="8" B1LL="-8.0" thetaLL="5" thetaUL="17.3" useExtendedCollectiveRange="false" />

</AerodynamicFeatures>

</Rotor>

<Rotor type="FGRotorMomentumTheory">

<Geometry>

<Position x="-0.1" y="-4.9460" z="-0.0080"/>

<Tilt lateralTilt="-90.0" longitudinalTilt="0.0" />

<Blades radius="0.71" chord="0.050" count="2" hingeOffset="0.0" />

<Delta3 angle="0" />

</Geometry>

<MechanicalFeatures Ir="0.35" Ib="0.027"/>

<AerodynamicFeatures>

<GroundEffect magnitude="0.05" />

<DesignRPM rpm="2874"/>

<Blades liftCurveSlope="0.11" zeroLiftDragCoefficient="0.007" twist="0.0" />

<Controls A1UL="0" A1LL="0" B1UL="0" B1LL="0" thetaLL="17" thetaUL="-27" useExtendedCollectiveRange="true"/>

<Power inducedPowerCorrectionFactor="1.05" />

<DynamicPressureRatio>

<Sideslip>

-1000 0.91

-30 0.91

-25 0.80

-20 0.72

-15 0.65

-10 0.60

-5 0.58

0 0.56

5 0.58

10 0.60

15 0.65

20 0.72

25 0.80

30 0.91

1000 0.91

</Sideslip>

</DynamicPressureRatio>

<Inplanewash>

<Low_a1 a1 ="-6">

-1000 0

0 0

10 -0.17

20 0.043

30 0.26

40 0.464

50 0.69

60 0.89

70 1.12

80 1.33

90 0.69

100 0

1000 0.86

</Low_a1>

<Medium_a1 a1 ="0">

-1000 0

0 -0.34

10 -0.52

20 -0.17

30 0.10

40 0.31

50 0.52

60 0.71

70 0.91

80 1.12

90 0.57

100 0

1000 0

</Medium_a1>

<High_a1 a1 ="6">

-1000 -0.48

0 -0.48

10 -0.69

20 -0.64

30 -0.27

40 0.03

50 0.27

60 0.52

70 0.74

80 0.96

90 0.46

100 0

</High_a1>

</Inplanewash>

<Downwash>

<Low_a1 a1 ="-6">

-1000 -0.12

0 -0.12

10 0.71

20 1.60

30 1.62

40 1.66

50 1.67

60 1.67

70 1.73

80 1.50

90 1.26

100 1.01

1000 1.01

</Low_a1>

<Medium_a1 a1 ="0">

-1000 0.36

0 0.36

10 0.84

20 1.64

30 1.70

40 1.76

50 1.82

60 1.85

70 1.90

80 1.68

90 1.44

100 1.20

1000 1.20

</Medium_a1>

<High_a1 a1 ="6">

-1000 0.69

0 0.69

10 1.21

20 1.70

30 1.76

40 1.83

50 1.90

60 1.97

70 2.03

80 1.92

90 1.74

100 1.39

1000 1.39

</High_a1>

</Downwash>

</AerodynamicFeatures>

</Rotor>

</Rotors>

<StabilizersAndWings>

<HorizontalStabilizerRight>

<Geometry>

<Position x="1.8140" y="-4.9460" z="0.9800"/>

<Up x="0.0" y="0.03489" z="0.9993908"/>

<Front x="0" y="0.9993908" z="-0.03489"/>

<SurfaceArea area="0.291028"/>

</Geometry>

<ControlResponse controlSurfaceLiftCoeffDerivative="0.0" controlSurfaceForceArmPos="0.0" />

<AerodynamicFeatures>

<DynamicPressureRatio>

<AoA>

-1000 0.93

-30 0.93

-25 0.93

-20 0.88

-15 0.71

-10 0.71

-5 0.71

0 0.71

5 0.71

10 0.71

15 0.76

20 0.85

25 0.93

30 0.93

1000 0.93

</AoA>

</DynamicPressureRatio>

<MainRotorInplanewash>

<Low_a1 a1 ="-6">

-1000 0

0 0

10 -0.18

20 0.04

30 0.26

40 0.47

50 0.70

60 0.91

70 1.14

80 1.36

90 0.70

100 0

1000 0

</Low_a1>

<Medium_a1 a1 ="0">

-1000 -0.35

0 -0.35

10 -0.53

20 -0.18

30 0.11

40 0.32

50 0.53

60 0.73

70 0.93

80 1.14

90 0.58

100 0

1000 0

</Medium_a1>

<High_a1 a1 ="6">

-1000 -0.49

0 -0.49

10 -0.70

20 -0.65

30 -0.28

40 0.03

50 0.28

60 0.53

70 0.76

80 0.99

90 0.47

100 0

1000 0

</High_a1>

</MainRotorInplanewash>

<MainRotorDownwash>

<Low_a1 a1 ="-6">

-1000 -0.12

0 -0.12

10 0.74

20 1.66

30 1.67

40 1.71

50 1.73

60 1.76

70 1.78

80 1.55

90 1.30

100 1.05

1000 1.05

</Low_a1>

<Medium_a1 a1 ="0">

-1000 0.37

0 0.37

10 0.86

20 1.69

30 1.76

40 1.82

50 1.88

60 1.91

70 1.97

80 1.74

90 1.49

100 1.24

1000 1.24

</Medium_a1>

<High_a1 a1 ="6">

-1000 0.72

0 0.72

10 1.25

20 1.76

30 1.82

40 1.89

50 1.97

60 2.03

70 2.10

80 1.99

90 1.80

100 1.43

1000 1.43

</High_a1>

</MainRotorDownwash>

<GroundEffect startDistance="1.6" strength="0.0"/>

<LiftCurve>

-1000 0

-180 0

-150 0.61

-140 0.69

-130 0.69

-120 0.61

-110 0.46

-100 0.24

-90 0

-80 -0.24

-70 -0.46

-60 -0.61

-50 -0.69

-40 -0.79

-30 -0.91

0 -0.5

30 0.91

40 0.79

50 0.69

60 0.61

70 0.46

80 0.24

90 0

100 -0.24

110 -0.46

120 -0.61

130 -0.69

140 -0.69

150 -0.61

180 0

1000 0

</LiftCurve>

<DragCurve >

-1000 0.0

-180 0.0

-140 0.42

-130 0.56

-120 0.71

-110 0.84

-100 0.93

-90 0.96

-80 0.93

-70 0.84

-60 0.71

-50 0.56

-40 0.42

0 0.008

40 0.42

50 0.56

60 0.71

70 0.84

80 0.93

90 0.96

100 0.93

110 0.84

120 0.71

130 0.56

140 0.42

180 0.0

1000 0.0

</DragCurve>

</AerodynamicFeatures>

</HorizontalStabilizerRight>

<HorizontalStabilizerLeft copy="HorizontalStabilizerRight">

<Geometry>

<Position x="-1.8140" />

</Geometry>

</HorizontalStabilizerLeft>

<VerticalStabilizer>

<Geometry>

<Position x="0" y="-4.778" z="0.1340"/>

<Up x="-1.0" y="0.0" z="0"/>

<Front x="0" y="1.0" z="0"/>

<SurfaceArea area="0.59"/>

</Geometry>

<ControlResponse controlSurfaceLiftCoeffDerivative="0.0" controlSurfaceForceArmPos="0.0" />

<AerodynamicFeatures>

<DynamicPressureRatio>

<Sideslip>

-1000 0.95

-30 0.95

-25 0.84

-20 0.75

-15 0.68

-10 0.63

-5 0.61

0 0.59

5 0.61

10 0.63

15 0.68

20 0.75

25 0.84

30 0.95

1000 0.95

</Sideslip>

</DynamicPressureRatio>

<MainRotorInplanewash>

<Low_a1 a1 ="-6">

-1000 0

0 0

10 -0.18

20 0.04

30 0.27

40 0.49

50 0.73

60 0.95

70 1.18

80 1.41

90 0.73

100 0

1000 0

</Low_a1>

<Medium_a1 a1 ="0">

-1000 -0.36

0 -0.36

10 -0.55

20 -0.18

30 0.11

40 0.33

50 0.55

60 0.75

70 0.96

80 1.18

90 0.60

100 0

</Medium_a1>

<High_a1 a1 ="6">

-1000 -0.51

0 -0.51

10 -0.73

20 -0.67

30 -0.29

40 0.04

50 0.29

60 0.55

70 0.78

80 1.02

90 0.49

100 0

1000 0

</High_a1>

</MainRotorInplanewash>

<MainRotorDownwash>

<Low_a1 a1 ="-6">

-1000 -0.12

0 -0.12

10 0.74

20 1.67

30 1.69

40 1.73

50 1.75

60 1.78

70 1.80

80 1.57

90 1.32

100 1.06

1000 1.06

</Low_a1>

<Medium_a1 a1 ="0">

-1000 0.37

0 0.37

10 0.87

20 1.71

30 1.78

40 1.84

50 1.90

60 1.93

70 1.99

80 1.76

90 1.51

100 1.26

1000 1.26

</Medium_a1>

<High_a1 a1 ="6">

-1000 0.72

0 0.72

10 1.26

20 1.78

30 1.84

40 1.92

50 1.99

60 2.05

70 2.12

80 2.01

90 1.82

100 1.45

1000 1.45

</High_a1>

</MainRotorDownwash>

<GroundEffect startDistance="0" strength="0.0"/>

<LiftCurve >

-180 0

-170 0.34

-160 0.74

-150 0.80

-140 0.72

-130 0.57

-120 0.43

-110 0.29

-100 0.15

-90 0

-80 -0.15

-70 -0.29

-60 -0.43

-50 -0.57

-40 -0.72

-30 -0.80

-25 -1.00

-20 -1.34

0 0

20 1.34

25 1.00

30 0.80

40 0.72

50 0.57

60 0.43

70 0.29

80 0.15

90 0

100 -0.15

110 -0.29

120 -0.43

130 -0.57

140 -0.72

150 -0.80

160 -0.74

170 -0.34

180 0

</LiftCurve>

<DragCurve>

-1000 0.0

-180 0.0

-140 0.42

-130 0.56

-120 0.71

-110 0.84

-100 0.93

-90 0.96

-80 0.93

-70 0.84

-60 0.71

-50 0.56

-40 0.42

0 0.008

40 0.42

50 0.56

60 0.71

70 0.84

80 0.93

90 0.96

100 0.93

110 0.84

120 0.71

130 0.56

140 0.42

180 0.0

1000 0.0

</DragCurve>

</AerodynamicFeatures>

</VerticalStabilizer>

</StabilizersAndWings>

<GroundContacts>

<GeneralConfiguration gearExtensionTime="3" gearDragCoefficient="0" gearReferenceArea="0"

maxSteerableGearDeflection="80" steerableGearSpeedCorrectionFactor="0.0"/>

<GroundContact type="FGGroundContact200" >

<Features isBrakable="false" isRetractable="false" isSteerable="false" />

<Aerodynamics equivalentFlatPlateArea ="0.0" />

<Suspension>

<MountStation x="-1.052" y="1.6933" z="-1.6717"/>

<SliderAxis x="0" y="0" z="1" />

<SuspensionLength length="0.2" />

<SpringParameters springConstant="420000" damperConstant="50000" maxCompression="0.18" />

</Suspension>

<Wheel mass="1" radius="0.1" >

<RollAxis x="1" y="0" z="0" />

<Friction slidingFriction="0.8" resistanceTorqueNoBrake="1000" resistanceTorqueFullBrake="1000" />

</Wheel>

<Damage thresholdLoad="20000000" />

</GroundContact>

<GroundContact type="FGGroundContact200" >

<Features isBrakable="false" isRetractable="false" isSteerable="false" />

<Aerodynamics equivalentFlatPlateArea ="0.0" />

<Suspension>

<MountStation x="1.052" y="1.6933" z="-1.6717"/>

<SliderAxis x="0" y="0" z="1" />

<SuspensionLength length="0.2" />

<SpringParameters springConstant="420000" damperConstant="50000" maxCompression="0.18" />

</Suspension>

<Wheel mass="1" radius="0.1" >

<RollAxis x="1" y="0" z="0" />

<Friction slidingFriction="0.8" resistanceTorqueNoBrake="1000" resistanceTorqueFullBrake="1000" />

</Wheel>

<Damage thresholdLoad="20000000" />

</GroundContact>

<GroundContact type="FGGroundContact200" >

<Features isBrakable="false" isRetractable="false" isSteerable="false" />

<Aerodynamics equivalentFlatPlateArea ="0.0" />

<Suspension>

<MountStation x="0.944" y="-0.6387" z="-1.5650"/>

<SliderAxis x="0" y="0" z="1" />

<SuspensionLength length="0.2" />

<SpringParameters springConstant="420000" damperConstant="50000" maxCompression="0.18" />

</Suspension>

<Wheel mass="1" radius="0.1" >

<RollAxis x="1" y="0" z="0" />

<Friction slidingFriction="0.8" resistanceTorqueNoBrake="1000" resistanceTorqueFullBrake="1000" />

</Wheel>

<Damage thresholdLoad="20000000" />

</GroundContact>

<GroundContact type="FGGroundContact200" >

<Features isBrakable="false" isRetractable="false" isSteerable="false" />

<Aerodynamics equivalentFlatPlateArea ="0.0" />

<Suspension>

<MountStation x="-0.944" y="-0.6387" z="-1.5650"/>

<SliderAxis x="0" y="0" z="1" />

<SuspensionLength length="0.2" />

<SpringParameters springConstant="420000" damperConstant="50000" maxCompression="0.18" />

</Suspension>

<Wheel mass="1" radius="0.1" >

<RollAxis x="1" y="0" z="0" />

<Friction slidingFriction="0.8" resistanceTorqueNoBrake="1000" resistanceTorqueFullBrake="1000" />

</Wheel>

<Damage thresholdLoad="20000000" />

</GroundContact>

<GroundContact type="FGGroundContact200" >

<Features isBrakable="false" isRetractable="false" isSteerable="false" />

<Aerodynamics equivalentFlatPlateArea ="0.0" />

<Suspension>

<MountStation x="0" y="-4.341" z="-0.65"/>

<SliderAxis x="0" y="0" z="1" />

<SuspensionLength length="0" />

<SpringParameters springConstant="420000" damperConstant="50000" maxCompression="0" />

</Suspension>

<Wheel mass="0.1" radius="0.1" >

<RollAxis x="1" y="0" z="0" />

<Friction slidingFriction="0.8" resistanceTorqueNoBrake="1000" resistanceTorqueFullBrake="1000" />

</Wheel>

<Damage thresholdLoad="20000000" />

</GroundContact>

</GroundContacts>

</GenHeli600>

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I knew there had to be some meat and potatoes to these profiles somewhere. This is it. Only question... where can I download Extractpbo or a similar extracting/packing program that will work? All the links I click lead me to a page that talks about it, but does not have a download link. Sorry to be a noob, but I have absolutely zero experience with modding BIS programs (can you tell?).

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better provide him a direct link ;)

download this

dev-heaven.net/attachments/download/12756/Eliteness2.88.rar

and this

dev-heaven.net/attachments/download/15244/DePbo3.72.rar

extract Eliteness2.88 where you want the program to go

then place Depbo.dll (3.72) inside the Eliteness folder.

Eliteness can both extract and compile pbo files

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I think you need the DePBO dlls extracted into the same directory as Eliteness. I read that somewhere, so I went ahead and downloaded them just n case.

---------- Post added at 08:48 PM ---------- Previous post was at 08:48 PM ----------

DOH...someone beat me to it! :D

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Thanks to Ziggy, I have a basic understanding of how to unpack and repack the PBOs. I will play around with some edits.

More later.

Thanks for the help guys! I'm really excited to be able to take this issue on personally. After looking through the .XML file for the helicopters, it looks like all of the key elements are present, and changing some values may be all that is necessary to make these things fly better. It looks like heli_flying has already accomplished some of this.

Having real pilots at the controls of the flight dynamics coding is a good thing!

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well done to heli-flying. that's a mad mass of numbers.

this is the community at its best - collaborating on something as fundamental as this. with real knowledge imparted by expeirenced heli pilots. the potential is there if the system allows the real tweaks required at this level.

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Np nightsta1ker, glad to assist.

I have no desire to mess with that XML, but I am willing to help those that do. :cool:

* nightsta1ker, please see this thread and observe the Devs input about flightstick lag adjustment

http://forums.bistudio.com/showthread.php?t=126795&page=2

Edited by [DirTyDeeDs]-Ziggy-

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Hi.

As i began to fly at TOH, i wondered how the flight model was working.

First i thought, all i know about real / rc helicopters is wrong, so i didn´t

write my opinion about the FM in this forum.

But now, when i see all the other peoples posts, i know i´am not the only

one who thinks the FM is done wrong.

It feels like that the main rotor blades pitch is axactly the same at each

blade and the direction of the helicopter is controlled by the hulls position.

I think behemia didn´t understand how this rotorheadsystem works that

are used at the TOH helicopters.

As far as i know, this rotorhead was invented by MBB (Messerschmitt

Bölkow Blohm) and were first used at the legendary Bo-105.

The TOH FM looks like it is using a fixed rotorhead with only collective

pitch and totally ingnores the of cyclic controlls.

Thats why the helicopters in TOH shows such sluggish controlls.

Its also correct that - as someone posted before - that you have to keep

the stick in forward position to keep the heli flying forward.

When you center the stick, the helis speed should decrease slowly till it

starts to hover and caused by mass of the helicopter that is placed under

the rotor, it must be much more keep a stable position.

Watch this video, at 8:50 the off voice says the pilot can get the hands

off the controlls withouth the heli is getting out of controll and at 9:00

you´ll see a Bo-105 doing a stunt that would behemia make thinking

about the TOH flight model ;)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dpMeB_zBfoU&feature=related

And watch this to see how agile a helicopter with cyclic pitch should

response to the controlls.

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Hi.

As i began to fly at TOH, i wondered how the flight model was working.

First i thought, all i know about real / rc helicopters is wrong, so i didn´t

write my opinion about the FM in this forum.

But now, when i see all the other peoples posts, i know i´am not the only

one who thinks the FM is done wrong.

It feels like that the main rotor blades pitch is axactly the same at each

blade and the direction of the helicopter is controlled by the hulls position.

I think behemia didn´t understand how this rotorheadsystem works that

are used at the TOH helicopters.

As far as i know, this rotorhead was invented by MBB (Messerschmitt

Bölkow Blohm) and were first used at the legendary Bo-105.

The TOH FM looks like it is using a fixed rotorhead with only collective

pitch and totally ingnores the of cyclic controlls.

Thats why the helicopters in TOH shows such sluggish controlls.

Its also correct that - as someone posted before - that you have to keep

the stick in forward position to keep the heli flying forward.

When you center the stick, the helis speed should decrease slowly till it

starts to hover and caused by mass of the helicopter that is placed under

the rotor, it must be much more keep a stable position.

Watch this video, at 8:50 the off voice says the pilot can get the hands

off the controlls withouth the heli is getting out of controll and at 9:00

you´ll see a Bo-105 doing a stunt that would behemia make thinking

about the TOH flight model ;)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dpMeB_zBfoU&feature=related

And watch this to see how agile a helicopter with cyclic pitch should

response to the controlls.

Not sure what you are talking about there. The 3 helicopters in TOH are modeled off of the MD500, Bell 412, and EH101/NH60. None of which have any link to the Bo-105. The MD500 has a fully articulated rotor, the Bell 412 has a flex beam for flapping, and the EH101/NH60 rotor heads I believe are fully articulated as well. Bo-105 is considered a semi-rigid rotor design in which the feather, flapping, are not hinged, not sure on the lead-lag portion. Also the aircraft flight dynamics have the basics quite well modeled. The models need tweaking mostly with respect to power, drag, and stability characteristics which can be best enhanced by comparing to real world flight test data. I have no issues doing loops and rolls with the MD500 model. Half the battle is setting up the controls so that the sensitivities are realistic and performing the manuever under the right flight conditions. I would mess around with your dead zones and sensitivities and practice a bit more with energy management and piloting before knocking on the flight model. Also... trim is your friend.

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Watch this video, at 8:50 the off voice says the pilot can get the hands

off the controlls withouth the heli is getting out of controll and at 9:00

you´ll see a Bo-105 doing a stunt that would behemia make thinking

about the TOH flight model ;)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dpMeB_zBfoU&feature=related

And watch this to see how agile a helicopter with cyclic pitch should

response to the controlls.

That is very much doable in TKOH, despite some of the flaws in the FD :)

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I thought it relevant to post that after doing some in depth testing of the aircraft in an organized and structured manner, I have found some of my original issues with the fd to be slightly inaccurate. This does not mean there are not flaws with the fd, there are, but they are not what I thought they were, and they may be adjustable/fixable. I was contacted by a member of RTD and we are discussing the perceived issues.

I am sure some good will come of this.

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I thought it relevant to post that after doing some in depth testing of the aircraft in an organized and structured manner, I have found some of my original issues with the fd to be slightly inaccurate. This does not mean there are not flaws with the fd, there are, but they are not what I thought they were, and they may be adjustable/fixable. I was contacted by a member of RTD and we are discussing the perceived issues.

I am sure some good will come of this.

excellent news. especially the originators of the FM contacting you!

Good luck and look forward to seeing what happens here.

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Here what I have gathered so far. Flight dynamics are being addressed right now for an upcoming patch. I also have some insight into why there were behavior discrepancies in the first place. Creating an accurate flight model o a specific aircraft takes a significant amount time and resources and considering these aircraft are fictional, and there were time and budget constraints, the FMs came out unconvincing. After having some discussion with RTD about blade element theory and it's relationship to the aircraft, I feel that the flight PHYSICS regarding the rotor have been modeled correctly, but there are missing pieces from the equation that created an unnatural feel. To sum it up: the rotorsystem does some pretty crazy stuff up there above the body o he helicopter, but due to mechanical hinges in the rotor system it is allowed to do those things without overly affecting flight controls or disturbing the airframe. The body of the helicopter HANGS from the rotor system like a pendulum (yes, I've given this spiel before), so gravity dampens alot of the effects the rotorsystem would inflict on it if the connection were more rigid. In fact early helicopters had his problem, and before they created flapping hinges helicopters could not move into forward flight, they would roll over.

In any case, these issues ARE being addressed. Those guys at RTD are pretty sharp. And BIS is taking this seriously.

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