Flight dynamics (important issues)

[Gabe_Ruckus]

I'm not an actual pilot, but I do play a bit of DCS Black Shark, which is supposed to be as close as you can get to an actual helicopter. Of course, it's also a foreign helicopter with contra-rotating blades, so it's tough to compare some things from the sim to TOH. I think the biggest thing I've noticed is the ground effect is much more subtle in black shark, I have to really dump the collective to land in TOH. That combined with the weird rolling with collective for the medium and the odd lack of inertia I feel with the heavy are the biggest differences, I think.

I pretty much stick to the light chopper in ToH for now, it feels the most correctly implemented and handles nicely, and I've gotten used to sticking the landings through that ground effect with it.

I've also noticed the vortex ring stall is much easier to correct out of in TOH, this might be realistic, I just know if you do in in the Kamov, you often end up crashing anyway, or striking the rotor blades together (And crashing anyway).

[nightsta1ker]

I'm not an actual pilot, but I do play a bit of DCS Black Shark, which is supposed to be as close as you can get to an actual helicopter. Of course, it's also a foreign helicopter with contra-rotating blades, so it's tough to compare some things from the sim to TOH. I think the biggest thing I've noticed is the ground effect is much more subtle in black shark, I have to really dump the collective to land in TOH. That combined with the weird rolling with collective for the medium and the odd lack of inertia I feel with the heavy are the biggest differences, I think.

I pretty much stick to the light chopper in ToH for now, it feels the most correctly implemented and handles nicely, and I've gotten used to sticking the landings through that ground effect with it.

I've also noticed the vortex ring stall is much easier to correct out of in TOH, this might be realistic, I just know if you do in in the Kamov, you often end up crashing anyway, or striking the rotor blades together (And crashing anyway).

TOH does not simulate Vortex Ring State (which is probably why it is so easy to recover from it ).

---------- Post added at 12:42 AM ---------- Previous post was at 12:15 AM ----------

What's your opinion of X-Plane, FSX, and/or Black Shark?

Not a hijack, just wondering what those others feel like compared to TOH...

X-plane has the most realistic helicopter physics. They are not perfect either by any means, but they are much more representative of the real thing as all of the basics are at least modeled properly. X-plane also has a very instant and fluid feeling to the controls which gives it a very lifelike feel. And X-plane is very developer friendly so almost anyone with some time and half a brain can learn to build their own aircraft and scenery. Anyone with a full brain can actually do some very amazing things, for example, Fred Conex AKA Alfredo Fernandez, developer of the Dreamfoil series (R22, B206) has done an amazing job on his aircraft. The R22 which I had the honor of alpha and beta testing for him with systems and flight dynamics, is as close to the real thing as I imagine one can get with a game. However, we spent months working on it. He would code for weeks and then send me a copy and I would test, write down everything that was incorrect, and he would code some more, until it was damn near perfect. Unfortunately, the exterior world in X-plane is atrocious. This is the killing point on that game.

FSX is very flawed in regards to helicopter dynamics. Though with some external plug ins like what the Dodo sim uses or Helicopter Total Realism (Fred Naar's program) you can get some very realistic results. The Dodo sim is probably the closest thing to the real thing overall regarding systems and accuracy of flying by the numbers. So by default, helicopters in FSX suck too, unless alot of work goes into fooling the game into doing something it does not want to. All of this aside, FSX has the most realistic environment overall, and with some payware addons can be very immersive. I do most of my flying here, even though I often get bored of flying overly simple, low fidelity flight dynamics and having nothing to do but go from point a to point b.

I hated DCS blackshark. There is really only one aircraft you get to fly: The Blackshark. If it had a few more helicopters, particularly some american ones, I might have been more interested in it. Certainly if that talent and attention to detail went into a civil game I would be peeing my pants! The very complex systems of the helicopter were immaculately done and the virtual cockpit and flight dynamics were flawless, but the lifeless environment detracted so much from the game. Also, I am not attracted to helicopters that are designed specifially for hunting. They have a tendency to be geared towards stability systems and the like that make the flying job easier so the pilot can hunt targets. I just like the flying part, because I find challenge in that in itself. I don't want a computer flying for me.

I actually LIKE TOH except for the flight dynamics. I think everything else was done really well. Considering it is not a simulator, I think BIS did a very good job, and if they had not failed to accomplish their goals of creating a realistic flight model, it would have been a spectacular success in my eyes. I was not looking for a replacement for FSX or X-plane. They have their place in the realm of simulators. The only reason I am up in arms about TOH's flight dynamics is because they claim realism and fidelity and authenticity but they have produced NONE of those things. Strip the flight dynamics down to a simple "point it where it's going" version and remove the claims of realism OR... fix it. That's all I can ask. And IMHO, they owe it to their customers. I almost didn't buy TOH but they offered me a realistic and authentic flight experience, so I figured they had fixed the issues that we had spotted during the community preview. But they didn't.

Why the hell am I still talking??? Damnit... you got me talking again!

[Gabe_Ruckus]

TOH does not simulate Vortex Ring State (which is probably why it is so easy to recover from it ).

Ah, I see. I did notice that the sink rate at speed was really (really really really unrealistically) low, but as my speed decreased I could drop the helicopter like a rock as long as I was one or two hundred meters up. I just assumed this was intentional and supposed to be vortex ring state.

Like I said though, I only had any experience with it through DCS Black Shark, but as long as I've got a real live pilot to answer questions: How much easier is it to recover from vortex ring state in a helicopter with only one set of blades than it would be in the Black Shark?

Haven't tried X-Plane yet, I really wasn't impressed with the physics in FSX when IL-2 Sturmovik was so much better, and I'm on board about how bad the choppers are in it... But back on X-Plane, I've looked at the graphics, and they are really really bad, it's always been a turn-off for me since I can't seem to find a copy on shelves for less than 30 bucks.

[twisted]

after reading the question above i dusted off xplane9 last night, took the stock r22 for a ride with my new pedals.
you know i found it more controllable and easier to fly than TKOH. not sure why though. i just seem to have more control and the heli doesn't make such huge changes whereas in TKOH i often end up oscillating madly. i landed on my first attempt without crashing, soemthing i can hardly do in TKOH without the allow rough landings setting on.

and when trying to hover i found it took into consideration my joystick movements more - but dont forget i am a noob at all this. never liked xplane much before as the environment don't feel immersive or look as nice as BIS products and without pedals flying a heli in it was tricky.

but now i am enjoying being able to do things in it (like speed crazily down the downward slope of a huge mountain with collective way down and then flare up to stop crashing)

[Xptical]

Same here. I can hover in XP and FSX, but can't in ToH yet. It feels like there is lag between stick movement and heli response which is causing pilot induced oscillation...

[nightsta1ker]

Twisted, the stock helicopters with X-plane are not great compared to some. Also, I have a few tips for you to make things a little more realistic. X-plane is very open ended and configurable. There are multitudes of things you can change or tweak so you get just what you want. Alot of people hate this because it is so complicated, but I like it because I KNOW what I want and I can in essense MAKE the game give it to me.

As far as controllability in X-plane vs. TOH, I think you are seeing the lack of control lag. When you move the cyclic, the helicopter responds, instantly. In TOH, there is a lag, which is why you wind up oscillating. I am a flight instructor, which means I have taken the single hardest set of tests the FAA can muster for a pilot to take, and I can barely fly the TOH models in Expert mode without oscillating. It's very difficult and not very real. The TOH model wants to flip over. It's like one of those inflatable punching bags that's been placed upside down. It REALLY wants to be upright.

---------- Post added at 02:11 AM ---------- Previous post was at 02:01 AM ----------

Ah, I see. I did notice that the sink rate at speed was really (really really really unrealistically) low, but as my speed decreased I could drop the helicopter like a rock as long as I was one or two hundred meters up. I just assumed this was intentional and supposed to be vortex ring state.

Like I said though, I only had any experience with it through DCS Black Shark, but as long as I've got a real live pilot to answer questions: How much easier is it to recover from vortex ring state in a helicopter with only one set of blades than it would be in the Black Shark?

Haven't tried X-Plane yet, I really wasn't impressed with the physics in FSX when IL-2 Sturmovik was so much better, and I'm on board about how bad the choppers are in it... But back on X-Plane, I've looked at the graphics, and they are really really bad, it's always been a turn-off for me since I can't seem to find a copy on shelves for less than 30 bucks.

Vortex Ring State works like this... You need to have a descent rate of greater than 300 FPM, you need to be below Effective Translational Lift (12-20 knots) and you need to have 20% or more of your engine power applied to driving the rotor system (VRS will NOT happen in an autorotation). It starts with a vibration and some uncrontrolled pitching movement, your descent rate increases, and when you pull collective to stop the descent, it gets worse instead of better. You are sinking into your own rotor wash and all that disturbed air is mucking up the tidy flow of air around your rotors and keeping them from producing lift. As you increase pitch, the problem intensifies and spreads along the blade. You are falling into a black hole.

Recovery is relatively simple, but can cost you alot of altitude when you may not have it (it usually happens in the final stages of an approach to the ground). Lower the nose and go for airspeed, do NOT pull any more collective, in fact, you may need to lower it a bit to help build the flow of smooth clean air over the rotors. When the airspeed starts to climb again, you are in clean air and can pull pitch to recover the descent rate.

If you catch it early, recovery is as simple as pitching the nose forward a bit and ducking out of it. In fully developed VRS you can lose hundreds of feet in just a few seconds. I don't know anything about dual counter-rotating (center mast) helicopters but I would assume the problem would be worse, you have one rotor system right on top of the other. I would imagine one system would get caught in the others vortex sooner and would cause yaw issues as well as an increased sink rate. But what do I know?

[CarlGustaffa]

More than most here I recon So a pretty close counterpart wrt responses, controls, and "counter intuitive" recoveries (until you know why of course) as a plain old stall in fixed wings?

[nightsta1ker]

More than most here I recon So a pretty close counterpart wrt responses, controls, and "counter intuitive" recoveries (until you know why of course) as a plain old stall in fixed wings?

In this case, yes, although you cannot expect it to act anything like a fixed wing during the whole process. I have been in VRS so bad (intentionally for training purposes) that in order to get it out I had to point the nose almost straight down to get airspeed. We started at 2500 AGL and recoverd at around 1000. The whole thing only lasted a few seconds, but we were pitching and rolling and shuddering. The controls did not want to respond. I had the stick almost full forward to get it to pitch down. Did I mention it was at night in crummy weather?

Boundary pushing stuff for an inexperienced pilot.

Coincidentally, the guy who was in the other seat is also a member of this community.

[MD500Enthusiast]

i think it would be a good idea for people to take an introductory flight on helicopters, sure it might be a bit expensive but it's a great experience and you might learn a thing or two. all this explaining to you guys is one thing but experiencing it is a whole other matter.

[Panther353]

So my question is this, did BIS dumb down the the RTD flight dynamics library or does the flight model from them suck to begin with?