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Thread: The trouble with getting people into Arma

  1. #531
    I noticed 'Team Mike' are using a quote made by Rock Paper Shotgun's Craig Pearson as inspiration - "Here's hoping they'll acheive a balance of complexity and accessibility".

  2. #532
    Quote Originally Posted by Whirly View Post
    I noticed 'Team Mike' are using a quote made by Rock Paper Shotgun's Craig Pearson as inspiration - "Here's hoping they'll acheive a balance of complexity and accessibility".
    Yes indeed, and I fully agree.

    The holy grail of game design is achieving a balance in which the absolute basics are intuitive and easy to grasp, while you can learn the complex stuff as you go along, so that everyone can approach the advanced features at their own speed. In other words: "make it easy to learn, but difficult to master".

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  3. #533
    Usually when advertisement departments known also as "gaming magazines" say "making the game accessible" they mean dumbing it down naked.

    As for devs - I have yet to see a single developer that didn't use "making the game accessible" as an excuse to dumb it down so kids will be able to jump in and play it to get more $$$.

    This may be true for ArmA since I can't see how it is unaccessible unless one is very lazy and want just jump in and gun down stuff - I mean it's a simple game (just WASD and aim'n'shoot + more keys for more cool functions) compared to stuff where you need to RTFM like Dangerous Waters or Falcon 4. But we'll see.
    Last edited by metalcraze; Mar 1 2012 at 17:32.
    ArmA2: "Doc, I'm wounded, I can barely aim and I'm bleeding badly, come on pull my body out of the harm's way and treat me before I die!"
    ArmA3: "You are wounded! Click to instantly regenerate health whenever you feel like it!"

    Giving 'authenticity' an entirely new meaning, together with Medal of Honor.

  4. #534
    Quote Originally Posted by metalcraze View Post
    Usually when advertisement departments known also as "gaming magazines" say "making the game accessible" they mean dumbing it down naked.

    As for devs - I have yet to see a single developer that didn't use "making the game accessible" as an excuse to dumb it down so kids will be able to jump in and play it to get more $$$.

    This may be true for ArmA since I can't see how it is unaccessible unless one is very lazy and want just jump in and gun down stuff - I mean it's a simple game (just WASD and aim'n'shoot + more keys for more cool functions) compared to stuff where you need to RTFM like Dangerous Waters or Falcon 4. But we'll see.
    ArmA's GUI is perhaps the most often critisised element for newcomers, and I can agree with that. I remember what it was like when I first started OFP, just because we're all used to it doesn't mean it got any better. Myself I dislike the contextual quick-command menu. Having to chase commands up & down the list because different things cross your view is annoying, several times I sent troops romping off into direct fire because a command I was aiming for jumped away to be replaced with "go there".

    I will quote Shakura_Chan as he describes the use of his WIP command-rose system for ArmA2.

    Quote Originally Posted by Shakura_Chan
    One thing I've found from using this daily for a while: It is so much easier to use AI. Not just "oh I can issue commands faster" but it actually made more complex combat possible. Working with a basic four man squad in open terrain is, for lack of a better term, beautiful. I've played missions designed for small high command operations using only a basic squad. You're moving, changing your squad's stance, lining up shots, moving your AT soldier into that perfect spot and then drawing fire. You don't have to fiddle with the dang scroll wheel. The AI behave. They don't die from secret hidden enemies (actually standing in plain sight) because they marched off on their own. I found myself using tactics and commands that I never would before, simply because it was so simple to do so. I've been playing the ofp\arma series for a long time, and lots of my most memorable combat moments have come from using this mod.
    No complexity is lost, but accessibility is improved.
    Fire And Smoke for ArmA2: JTD_FireAndSmoke v0.2

    For better future effects addons, please vote for this ticket.

  5. #535
    hhhhm, I can't say I was too confused by ArmA's interface when I began playing. It's not perfect that's for sure and needs a bit of reworking to make more usable but I don't think that warrants any measures to make the game "more accessible". It's already been commented in this thread that the ideas of accessibility and usability are two different concepts.

    matalcraze: i'm glad we don't see threads on the Falcon forums talking of making Falcon 4 more accessible...or we'd end up with Falcon 4.0 - LockOn Edition
    Last edited by rainbird; Mar 2 2012 at 12:34.

  6. #536
    Quote Originally Posted by rainbird View Post
    hhhhm, I can't say I was too confused by ArmA's interface when I began playing. It's not perfect that's for sure and needs a bit of reworking to make more usable but I don't think that warrants any measures to make the game "more accessible". It's already been commented in this thread that the ideas of accessibility and usability are two different concepts.

    matalcraze: i'm glad we don't see threads on the Falcon forums talking of making Falcon 4 more accessible...or we'd end up with Falcon 4.0 - LockOn Edition
    It's comments like this that make this thread go round and round in an endless loop. As long as you insist that accessibility means dumbing down then each time you see the word you drag out the same comments. Accessibility does NOT mean dumbing down, only making what's there easier to use. However, I suspect this will be a forever recurring point

  7. #537
    I can see you do not want it dumbed down. I was just saying, accessibility generally implies something completely different to the (and I agree ) positive usability changes you want to see.

  8. #538
    Quote Originally Posted by rainbird View Post
    I can see you do not want it dumbed down. I was just saying, accessibility generally implies something completely different to the (and I agree ) positive usability changes you want to see.
    Right, so if you know that, then respond with that in mind. You say it "generally implies" something different, and it always will as long as you insist on inferring that. I wouldn't wish to have to repeatedly explain "accessibility" every time it gets used.

  9. #539
    In marketings/advertising "accessible" has a slightly different meaning from "userfriendly". The first one is more focused on how many customers may/could find a game attractive while second one is more focused on ingame GUI, controls etc. Of course "making a game more accessible" sounds tenfold better than "making a game more userfriendly". Its about project presentation and how game devs/publishers can sell their products. I don't like command-rose systems especially those which are just flashy + stylish and stop/slowdown ingame time so the player has time to dial whatever + how long he wants - imo its a kind of cheating (realtime).

  10. #540
    It'd be a whole lot better for everyone if they would actually look up what the word accessibility means. It simply implies something being accessible. The antonym to accessible is inaccessible. A more accessible UI would mean a streamlined UI, a reorganized UI, so may be a radial menu or something. Accessible doesn't mean removing features. It's not that features make the game inaccessible. Usually, accessibility is in terms of strictly UI and menu organization. An example of inaccessibility is having to cycle through all weapons using one key, when a more accessible option is to assign equipment to the number keys 1-6 or so. Another example is the current scroll menu (inaccessible) when a more accessible radial menu can keep the same number of commands, but make it a whole lot quicker to go through. Inaccessible is the Domination game mode's current scroll wheel, laborious method of forming teams when a more accessible method is to do that at the start of the game, when choosing which roles to fill. That's the difference between inaccessible and accessible. It's not a matter of dumbing down anything. It's reorganization of features, controls, and the UI, not removing features or controls or UI elements. It's streamlining.

    metalcraze, list examples of games that have said they were "making their game more accessible", when they meant dumbing down. And don't mention COD, because COD never said that or did that.

    ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    Quote Originally Posted by NoRailgunner View Post
    In marketings/advertising "accessible" has a slightly different meaning from "userfriendly". The first one is more focused on how many customers may/could find a game attractive while second one is more focused on ingame GUI, controls etc. Of course "making a game more accessible" sounds tenfold better than "making a game more userfriendly". Its about project presentation and how game devs/publishers can sell their products. I don't like command-rose systems especially those which are just flashy + stylish and stop/slowdown ingame time so the player has time to dial whatever + how long he wants - imo its a kind of cheating (realtime).
    Uh, a radial menu is a lot quicker than scrolling. If there were more than one radial menu, tied to more than just one key, then it'd be a lot quicker. No, the radial menu shouldn't completely replace the standard menu. But a lot of commands should be tied to radial menus. Especially commo responses, and basic movements, stances, and formations. Also, each function key could be separate radial menu. Because you can move your mouse with a whole lot more precision and speed than scrolling. Yeah, you can map certain commands, but that doesn't necessarily go away with a radial menu. No, I'm not talking about Dragon Rising's menu. I'm talking more like America's Army, especially when you have more than one of a certain type of weapon. If you've got multiple grenades, a radial menu can help you quickly select which type you are going to use. Same with more than one primary weapon (instead of the "move to backpack" that's present in Domination). America's Army 3 pretty much showed a proper way to do radial menus. Check this out: http://manual.americasarmy.com/index...al_Menu_System

    You tap a key, say 3, or G, to take out your grenade. To access the radial menu, you hold that key. If you need to stop what you're doing to take cover or fire, you simply release. No need to backspace out of the menu. Look at the pic with the radio commands. The plus signs indicate additional radial menus. It's a much better menu system in my opinion. And I don't see how it's "cheating"
    Last edited by antoineflemming; Mar 2 2012 at 14:02.

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