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Thread: Flight Dynamics Feedback From Real Helicopter Pilots

  1. #61
    Quote Originally Posted by nightsta1ker View Post
    I think with some focus, BIS could make a convincing flight model too. Does it need to be perfect? No. It just needs to be convincing.
    The flight model could absolutely be convincing with enough effort from the developer. My point was there is so much ground to cover with regard to comms, airspace, physics, etc. that there's no way to please everyone. I don't think of ToH as a sim, I think of it as SimCopter+.

  2. #62
    I agree with both of your point of view the game one is far too high, but lets not take the skin of the bear before killing him, lets see how it goes, if we can tweak things (flat pitch, banking, ground effect ...) for the best, and what feature we will be able to add to it (ATC, Firefighting ...) could be arcade fun

  3. #63
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    I am also think of it as SimCopter redux, but simers will still get very piss off for any error for sure.
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  4. #64
    Private First Class RUBIX's Avatar
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    It seems that the topic of this thread has changed. I hope that we can get back on track. I started this thread to discuss flight dynamics IRL and in TOH, and hoped to broaden our knowledge as a community. I know that the developers for BIS are very active with their community and that they do take the time to read what we have to say. Let us try to open discussions about different flight characteristics in TOH that may needs some guidance and offer the best solutions we can.

    p.s. 'Best feedback and communication from developers award' goes to...a tie between: BIS and Mojang

    ---------- Post added at 08:42 PM ---------- Previous post was at 08:39 PM ----------

    Recommended reading:

    Rotorcraft Flying Handbook

    FAA-H-8083-21
    U.S. Department of Transportation
    Federal Aviation Administration

    This is a great book for the basics of helicopter flight: For all who are interested

  5. #65
    Quote Originally Posted by RUBIX View Post
    It seems that the topic of this thread has changed. I hope that we can get back on track. I started this thread to discuss flight dynamics IRL and in TOH, and hoped to broaden our knowledge as a community. I know that the developers for BIS are very active with their community and that they do take the time to read what we have to say. Let us try to open discussions about different flight characteristics in TOH that may needs some guidance and offer the best solutions we can.

    p.s. 'Best feedback and communication from developers award' goes to...a tie between: BIS and Mojang

    ---------- Post added at 08:42 PM ---------- Previous post was at 08:39 PM ----------

    Recommended reading:

    Rotorcraft Flying Handbook

    FAA-H-8083-21
    U.S. Department of Transportation
    Federal Aviation Administration

    This is a great book for the basics of helicopter flight: For all who are interested
    I'm sorry if I hijacked your thread RUBIX. I felt strongly that more needed to be said. We can talk about behavioral issues all day long, but if we are not seeing them fixed, then it's kind of pointless, don't you think? In any case, ocramweb has a point. We are not too far from release, and perhaps BIS has a few aces up their sleeves yet.

    For the record, I did not mention anything like realistic ATC comms, airspace, things of that nature. I do not expect any of that as I am well aware this is not a simulation. However, I do think decent flight dynamics is important.

    4 in 1, I find your remark to be typical of the "static" I mentioned in my earlier post about pilots doing our best to "keep it real" on this forum (pun intended). At no point do I feel my expectations or suggestions have been unrealistic within the confines of a fun and playable game, nor have I at any point expected "perfection". I think the vast majority of us know that this game will have it's limitations, but we are all hoping for some basics. Decent flight physics, combined with some missions to use them with. One without the other is OK. We already have several examples of that. BOTH would be phenominal.

    RUBIX... Once again. Sorry for hijacking your thread. That's enough from me.

  6. #66
    Why not move the other topics into new threads?

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  7. #67

    Unsquawk 7500

    (We had many patches and will have a few more.)

    I haven't seen, or I missed some thoughts about that Banking occuring in Toh, that you get using the collective, and if any of you have been able to fly above the Vne for a while without doing a dive.

  8. #68
    Private First Class RUBIX's Avatar
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    I am still concerned about that roll associated with collective; it makes any nap-of-the-earth flying very difficult. I feel that they may be using collective position to assist in the dissymmetry of lift effects (Which I feel is incorrect, as the collective changes the pitch of all blades equally [knowing that this may produce a slight difference in the advancing and retreating sides, I feel it shouldn't be nearly as much as simulated currently]).

    The dissymmetry of lift, Vne, and retreating blade stall all seem to need a little more attention. Flying above Vne doesn't seem to produce any negative effects if you are maintaining a straight and level forward flight. If, however, you try to pitch or roll the aircraft (even slightly) the first consequence is a rapid decrease in rotor rpm. After the initial rpm droop, the helicopter pitches nose down and is unrecoverable (even with full down collective and aft cyclic). IRL I have only felt the precursors leading up to retreating blade stall once, and it was due to acute mountain turbulence while flying near Vne. The helicopter pitched nose up and slowed itself down as a result (I lowered collective a little and continued the deceleration until reaching a safe speed for the turbulence). From what I have learned, this is the main effect of retreating blade stall as well as a roll in the direction of the retreating blade (not the uncontrollable pitch nose down).

    Something else to talk about is the rotor rpm droop when pitching nose up in a fast forward flight creating a high G-load (but not excessive). I have noticed this quite a bit, and it is very unsettling. What happens IRL is that the blades cone (creating higher rpm due to the Coriolis Effect) and the Lift Vector in front of the axis of rotation (due to the upward airflow through the rotors, creating a resultant relative Wind that is below the rotational airflow). This shift produces less drag on the blades, and even an acceleration vector in a region of the blades, which also produces higher RPM. So the effect in game is opposite of what it should be. Something to note, however, is that when the helicopter leaves the higher G-load stage of flight and into a normal or low G-load stage of flight (the blades flatten out from their coned position and the resultant relative wind may no longer be below the rotational airflow) the RPM will see a decay that could be very substantial depending on how much of a G-load change there was between these two stages.
    Last edited by RUBIX; Oct 2 2011 at 19:50.

  9. #69
    The ROLL
    The unequal distribution of lift on the rotor disc (Dis-symmetry of lift) have effectively for effect the tendency of the heli to roll toward the retreating side, now what about the blade flapping ? is it not the solution against this Roll to permit the blades to flap. And as far as I know it does not seem to happen in Toh, the rotor disc seems to be fix ( maybe only on the 3d side) But anyway in short Dis-symmetry of lift induce Roll which can be solved by allowing the blade to Flap.
    Now once said the association of the roll with the collective should go back to the cyclic.

    we know that the blade pitch angle is lower on the advancing side of the disk to compensate for the increased blade airspeed on that side. Blade pitch angle is increased on the retreating blade side to compensate for the decreased blade airspeed on that side. These changes in blade pitch are introduced either through the blade feathering mechanism or blade flapping.
    When made with the blade feathering mechanism, the changes are called cyclic feathering. Pitch changes are made to individual blades independent of the others in the system and are controlled by the cyclic pitch control.

    The VNE that was my concern when I asked about that induce dive, that should not occur, but now we are testing this into OA environment, lets see in Toh one as it could change things.


    Now Regarding RPM, effectively g-loading the rotor with the cyclic should increase RPM and not the opposite, same for disk loading, and yes doing S turns during an auto-rotation to gain RPM and loosing them instead IS very unsettling. Now might just be related to the governor itself here

    PS:Xcuse my english I do my best :P

  10. #70
    Quote Originally Posted by ocramweb View Post

    Now Regarding RPM, effectively g-loading the rotor with the cyclic should increase RPM and not the opposite, same for disk loading, and yes doing S turns during an auto-rotation to gain RPM and loosing them instead IS very unsettling. Now might just be related to the governor itself here
    My thoughts exactly. Aft cyclic should increase rotor RPM. I could be wrong, but think about what happens in an auto.

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