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Thread: Flight Dynamics Feedback From Real Helicopter Pilots

  1. #51
    Quote Originally Posted by nightsta1ker View Post
    I am worried they are catering more to the Arma crowd than the pilot/simulator crowd.
    Are you referring to 'As realistic as possible Flight dynamics' according to RL pilots in expert modes or the default flight model setting etc for novice or general user?

    Reason i ask is why would you restrict a FM of all realistic attributes in the Expert mode? or is it more about the over simplifying of certain flight procedure or similar?

  2. #52
    Quote Originally Posted by nightsta1ker View Post
    They need to listen to the real pilots. ... I think the game will sell more copies if they listen to us than if they don't.
    i hope they do too and i am not a real pilot. Am not even a very good fake pilot honestly. which is why i bought TKOH.

  3. #53
    Quote Originally Posted by nightsta1ker View Post
    I really hope they get this stuff ironed out. They need to listen to the real pilots. They have championed realism since they announced this project, but I am worried they are catering more to the Arma crowd than the pilot/simulator crowd. I think the game will sell more copies if they listen to us than if they don't.
    Can you please explain in more detail?


    My inbox is fill and won't be emptied. If your PM is regarding requests to use my work, unfortunately I choose not to grant such permission. My work is for use with CWR2 only.

  4. #54
    The feature status you might like for all heli pilots

    Spoiler:


    Take care

    Pure

  5. #55
    Quote Originally Posted by PurePassion View Post
    The feature status you might like for all heli pilots

    Spoiler:


    Take care

    Pure




    To clarify to some of the others who wanted to know specifically what I meant by my comment:

    Since this project was first announced, several real world pilots, myself included, have been very active on this forum giving suggestions and advice to help make this game all it can be. There was some static with the gaming community, some of whom thought realism should be sub-par to gameplay (playability and arcade style fun). Helicopters are challenging. They require alot of training, talent, skill, attention to detail, and most of all practice, to master. After reviewing and seeing reviews of the Community Preview releases, and seeing the changes that were implemented based on general feedback from the community, it started to seem to me that more attention was being paid to the general community than to the real pilots that were trying desperately to provide feedback and implement changes that were important to us. Changes that regarded the flight dynamics. After seeing several updates that did very little to improve the dynamics, and in some cases hurt them (alot of this due to complaints and suggestions being made by non pilots), I started to grow weary and stopped monitoring progress.

    Hovercontrol staff member Cris Gaeth (aka Panther) noted that they would be reviewing the demo soon. So I popped on here to see if any good progress had been made with the flight profile. After reading some of the comments made by other pilots, I started to worry.

    Thank you for the update PurePassion. I am glad you guys are going to implement all of those things. I just have one question, and it probably won't be answered until I buy the game when it is released and find out for myself: Will it all work the way it is supposed to? Will it feel right? Do your models fly like real helicopters? Your Community Preview was on the right track, but there were some elements that were lacking, and I was starting to get the impression that the flight model was not going anywhere. I just hope for everyones sake that it all feels right. I'm not going to be criticising because a temperature or pressure gauge is not reading exactly how I think it should, or maybe it takes off with 60% torque when it would really probably be 75 or 80%, they are fictional models. But helicopters all fly pretty similarly. Some are more sensitive than others, some sluggish, some fast, some slow, but they all have the same forces acting on them, and so their behavior is pretty predictable regardless of type or size (there are a few exceptions, but only a few).

    I was just voicing my concern aloud. I have been very anxious to see a game like this come out for a long time. I have even had lengthy daydream discussions about it with other pilot/gamers. When this project was announced it felt like the Holy Grail had been revealed to me. It would be very disappointing to be let down because the flight model was unrealistic.

  6. #56
    After re-reading the post above, I wanted to add that my concerns that the game should cater to pilots over the general public are not meant to sound elitist. Every one of the members of this forum who has voiced their thoughts of how this game should be is entitled to their opinion, and their opinion is just as valid as anyone elses, including mine. I am not trying to say that as a pilot, my opinion is more valid than anyone elses. I am only trying to make the point that BIS has stated that they intend to provide a realistic (within the confines of a game) experience in the life of a career civil helicopter pilot, and in order to do that, they would need to place some extra attention and emphasis on real pilot feedback. Judging by the note from PurePassion, perhaps they have been, and maybe the Community Preview does not live up to what the actual game has in store for all of us, but it has been all we have to go by.

    I just want to make sure that everyone understands where I am coming from. Please put the broken bottles down!

  7. #57

    Flight behaviors

    Thinking that it is going to be more 'arcade' than what it could be.
    (not regarding on details, but some behaviors* from what I saw up to now, are going to be very annoying for rl pilots.. or any others that knows how choppers are supposed to fly).
    I am not saying this game is not going to be nice, many of us, dreamed about it for so long...
    once again we have not seen anything else than the preview for now, and I am sure there will be many updates for this game.
    I really wish that they'll go on to the mainstream of pilots feedback, ... we'll see it'll be sad if not.

    I will not break a bottle, I'll just offer you one



    *already stated here and there in the forum

    ps: There is the TOH Community Issue Tracker that could also help, and I think there is too little activities there, maybe easier for devs to spot things, ... never knows
    Last edited by ocramweb; Oct 1 2011 at 08:52.

  8. #58
    After re-reading the post above, I wanted to add that my concerns that the game should cater to pilots over the general public are not meant to sound elitist. Every one of the members of this forum who has voiced their thoughts of how this game should be is entitled to their opinion, and their opinion is just as valid as anyone elses, including mine.
    FWIW, as a non-pilot (apart from a single 45 minute introductory lesson in an R440 I'm also very keen that the FM should be as accurate a representation of the real thing as possible.
    Author of PVPmissionWizard ArmA2FPSAnalyser AddonChecker and ... squint

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  9. #59
    Quote Originally Posted by nightsta1ker View Post
    After re-reading the post above, I wanted to add that my concerns that the game should cater to pilots over the general public are not meant to sound elitist. Every one of the members of this forum who has voiced their thoughts of how this game should be is entitled to their opinion, and their opinion is just as valid as anyone elses, including mine. I am not trying to say that as a pilot, my opinion is more valid than anyone elses. I am only trying to make the point that BIS has stated that they intend to provide a realistic (within the confines of a game) experience in the life of a career civil helicopter pilot, and in order to do that, they would need to place some extra attention and emphasis on real pilot feedback.
    I understand where you're coming from and I'd love to see a true "simulation" but in all honesty, BIS just can't produce a product like that. To be honest, I'm not sure anyone can. The DCS series is the closest thing I've found to a true simulation, but the inherent limits of technology and developer resources will keep the level of realism we want from becoming a reality for at least the next decade.

    ToH right now (kinda / sorta / maybe) mimics the control inputs required to fly a helicopter. It doesn't deal with traffic AFAIK, nor ATC, nor will it feature dynamic weather, a proper view point for long lining, realistic torque settings / power limitations, proper start-up / shut downs, it does a crap job with ground effect, it's almost impossible to get a decent rate of descent, etc.

    None of this really matters at the end of the day though. It's going to be a blast to fly (especially multiplayer), there will hopefully be a boatload of mods made by the community and in a perfect world will serve as a great proof of concept for future BIS projects and for other developers.

    In summary, don't sweat the things you can't change. If BIS thought it was a good idea to listen to the helicopter pilots here (myself included) they would have. They decided not to, but at the end of the day they're better judges of how to make video games than I am.

    Now who's up for a beer and some multi-player beta fly-ins?
    Last edited by Chris CDN; Oct 1 2011 at 22:40. Reason: Spelling

  10. #60
    Quote Originally Posted by Chris CDN View Post
    I understand where you're coming from and I'd love to see a true "simulation" but in all honesty, BIS just can't produce a product like that. To be honest, I'm not sure anyone can. The DCS series is the closest thing I've found to a true simulation, but the inherent limits of technology and developer resources will keep the level of realism we want from becoming a reality for at least the next decade.

    ToH right now (kinda / sorta / maybe) mimics the control inputs required to fly a helicopter. It doesn't deal with traffic AFAIK, nor ATC, nor will it feature dynamic weather, a proper view point for long lining, realistic torque settings / power limitations, proper start-up / shut downs, it does a crap job with ground effect, it's almost impossible to get a decent rate of descent, etc.

    None of this really matters at the end of the day though. It's going to be a blast to fly (especially multiplayer), there will hopefully be a boatload of mods made by the community and in a perfect world will serve as a great proof of concept for future BIS projects and for other developers.

    In summary, don't sweat the things you can't change. If BIS thought it was a good idea to listen to the helicopter pilots here (myself included) they would have. They decided not to, but at the end of the day they're better judges of how to make video games than I am.

    Now who's up for a beer and some multi-player beta fly-ins?
    Alot of what you mentioned is indeed very trivial, and like I said, I am not expecting a perfect simulation. Just some basic, decent flight modeling. And yes, it IS possible. I spent the last 4 months working with the developer of the Dreamfoil 206 for X-plane on his new R22BII. It is absolutely amazing how close his flight dynamics and systems are to the real thing. Is it perfect? No. X-plane has it's limitations too. But is it good enough to be very convincing? Absolutely. And I think with some focus, BIS could make a convincing flight model too. Does it need to be perfect? No. It just needs to be convincing.

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