AI vision ignoring grass in their LoS

[Fireball]

I know this has been claimed all so many times, but it never has been proved, I think. Maybe this is obvious to those who understand how AI sees, but I was asked continuously to provide a repro for that. So here we go.

I'm bothered by that issue for a while already and I finally managed to do a repro mission and made a video of it even:

http://dev-heaven.net/issues/show/5785

As it seems, if it's about detection, grass is considered if you're hidden in it. But if the line of sight is obstructed by grass and you're already discovered, then AI becomes clairvoyant.

That produces scenes, as to where AI sees you, dives to (visual) cover into high grass and shoots you precisely, as if they saw you from there.

I think that behavior is super-human (sort of cheating) and should be fixed. :protest:

[maturin]

I'm not sure the grass is the problem. I think the AI can track you for several seconds when you leave their line of sight behind any object, even hard cover.

You can do the same thing via the red dots on your map.

[Fireball]

maturin, if you look at my repro mission and video you'll know it's about grass.

[Yapab]

I think this would be very hard to fix, as a proper LOS simulation would kill even the fastest CPU when more than 10 AI were on the field :)

[LeadCommando65]

I think this would be very hard to fix, as a proper LOS simulation would kill even the fastest CPU when more than 10 AI were on the field :)

Not really. It could be done the same way the grass layer works in the distance, but it would be just a "viewGeometry" or something similar, that is raised to the height of the grass. The calculating would be the same as if you were haveing only the terrain on -> no difference in perfomance.

[maturin]

maturin, if you look at my repro mission and video you'll know it's about grass.

I think we need to investigate AI tracking people through buildings and fences after being spotted too, however.

[JW Custom]

I think it's a combination of super tracking and precision not hindered by blocked view.

[ricnunes]

Yeap, I agree and experienced that the AI "super tracks" the players/enemies and when the player finds cover the enemy AI will still "see" the player! The same happens with player against the AIs where the player can see detected enemies on the map but of course the AI is always much more effective using this "super-ability" because while the player may know the APROXIMATE direction of the detected AIs, the enemy AIs will know the EXACT player's POSITION (or the exact position of opposing AIs).

This of course need to be fixed!

[maturin]

Yeap, I agree and experienced that the AI "super tracks" the players/enemies and when the player finds cover the enemy AI will still "see" the player! The same happens with player against the AIs where the player can see detected enemies on the map but of course the AI is always much more effective using this "super-ability" because while the player may know the APROXIMATE direction of the detected AIs, the enemy AIs will know the EXACT player's POSITION (or the exact position of opposing AIs).

This of course need to be fixed!

The player has the tracking ability as well.

The "Player AI" knows the exact location of a known enemy that has hidden behind a building because you can see their red dot on your map. If you ordered your squad to attack the concealed dot soon after it hid, they would know its exact location.

[No Use For A Name]

It's probably the same as when you play on the easiest difficulty, and your squad leader tells you to attack a target. You'll get an icon that shows the targets last known position, and if they're moving the icon will move in the same direction/speed until the target is visually updated again.

[MQ-9 Reaper]

I agree with the threadstarter.
BIS has worked on the grass in the beta patchs, but the AI still has the detection advantage (whether the player has already been discovered or not).


If you put the player on the southern side of a grassy hill, put an AI on the northern side of the hill, then walk up the hill slooowly,
the AI soldier will see your head through the grass (and headshot you :soldier:) before you can see anything on the other side. (terrain was set to normal for the test)
It seems that the view blocks are not the same size as the grass.

I play with GDT Mod Grass so that the fight is more fair...

[maturin]

It's probably the same as when you play on the easiest difficulty, and your squad leader tells you to attack a target. You'll get an icon that shows the targets last known position, and if they're moving the icon will move in the same direction/speed until the target is visually updated again.

That's probably true, but the enemy doesn't keep leading you after you run behind a bush and lie down. I doubt they stopped guessing (mathematically determining exactly) your position based on movement speed because they were expecting you to pop out and you did not. That would be overly complex.

[NeMeSiS]

That's probably true, but the enemy doesn't keep leading you after you run behind a bush and lie down. I doubt they stopped guessing (mathematically determining exactly) your position based on movement speed because they were expecting you to pop out and you did not. That would be overly complex.

Check out how it was in ArmA1 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L_TVnvT9WLo). ;)

[whisper]

That's probably true, but the enemy doesn't keep leading you after you run behind a bush and lie down. I doubt they stopped guessing (mathematically determining exactly) your position based on movement speed because they were expecting you to pop out and you did not. That would be overly complex.

You should not doubt. If AI has plain sight of the calculated future presence point of the tracked unit, and the unit is not there, AI will revert to a previous calculated position without LoS, most of the time

[JW Custom]

Check out how it was in ArmA1 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L_TVnvT9WLo). ;)

Wow thats nice, would like it to be similar in ArmA 2 :cool:

[NeMeSiS]

Wow thats nice, would like it to be similar in ArmA 2 :cool:

I never tested it, but i assume that it is, or maybe its better. :p

[Bouben]

This bug is something I really really hate in A2 and frantically hope that it will be fixed.

[Fireball]

Yes, please do not mix two (or even three) different issues.

1. what I mean is the grass layer and only that one not hindering AI view
2. what has been discussed here too, is a good AI feature (anticipation where the enemy could go)
3. what has been confused with 2. is suppression precision, which is too high; the AI just has a better idea where it lost line of sight to you, than a human normally would have

[fabrizio_T]

Yes, please do not mix two (or even three) different issues.
3. what has been confused with 2. is suppression precision, which is too high; the AI just has a better idea where it lost line of sight to you, than a human normally would have

And if you are wondering about his one, you'd better start here:
http://dev-heaven.net/issues/show/1751
;)

[CarlGustaffa]

Part of the problem is that once they have "made you", they "will" see you. I have no problem "hiding" while I'm not known, but once I'm known, they tend to see me regardless. To test, be in hiding and throw some smoke. Peak from hiding so that the AI could see you if you had no smoke screen. You're still invisible to him. Good. Now, make yourself known by shooting. He now knows where you are, which is also correct. Get back into solid cover and he may stop shooting. Peak out, and he now knows where you are, despite the smoke screen. Set yourself to "this allowDamage FALSE" to see how he continues to deliver accurate fire through the smoke. NOT good.

I agree, suppression precision is way too good. However, I would want a suppressing sniper to be that good, so... However, what is waaaay too low is the distance from you to where the bullet lands needs to be before the suppression "effects" kick in. If a bullet landed 5m from me, I would still be scared shitless, boost my adrenaline level and be less effective in aiming.

So, suppression accuracy needs to be lowered, but it really mustn't be done without also increasing the distance at which suppression effects kicks in. Personally I think even close noises (except your own gun) should trigger some suppression effects. Battlefield accuracy (AI *and* player) is far too high on a busy battle. I don't want range shooting accuracy.

[whisper]

Part of the problem is that once they have "made you", they "will" see you. I have no problem "hiding" while I'm not known, but once I'm known, they tend to see me regardless. To test, be in hiding and throw some smoke. Peak from hiding so that the AI could see you if you had no smoke screen. You're still invisible to him. Good. Now, make yourself known by shooting. He now knows where you are, which is also correct. Get back into solid cover and he may stop shooting. Peak out, and he now knows where you are, despite the smoke screen. Set yourself to "this allowDamage FALSE" to see how he continues to deliver accurate fire through the smoke. NOT good.

I agree, suppression precision is way too good. However, I would want a suppressing sniper to be that good, so... However, what is waaaay too low is the distance from you to where the bullet lands needs to be before the suppression "effects" kick in. If a bullet landed 5m from me, I would still be scared shitless, boost my adrenaline level and be less effective in aiming.

So, suppression accuracy needs to be lowered, but it really mustn't be done without also increasing the distance at which suppression effects kicks in. Personally I think even close noises (except your own gun) should trigger some suppression effects. Battlefield accuracy (AI *and* player) is far too high on a busy battle. I don't want range shooting accuracy.

Good test, just a question : how far are you from the guy when testing, and how do you move in and out of cover? To me, most of the issues always have been hearing capabilities of IAs, and they may well spot you by sound in your test (which wouldn't make it any better, ofc ...)

[CarlGustaffa]

Oh, can't remember. Not very far, 10-20 meters? Leaning out of the corner was enough for him to start shooting through smoke. Haven't tested in a while though.